people have been demonizing it for most of the AD years i think but it’s quite pleasant really. are there any proven negative effects?

        • RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world
          1·
          4 个月前

          No thanks. The question was about negative effects, and you gave your response. I’d like you to explain how masturbation turns you into a Christian and/or feminist.

          • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
            01·
            4 个月前

            Okay whatever, I already explained my position. I’m not going to repeat myself to every bad faith actor that wants to their own personalized explanation.

            • RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world
              1·
              4 个月前

              You interpreted a movie about respecting women and not objectifying people as anti-pleasure for men, and you call me bad faith. You’re an incel who can’t understand a children’s movie.

          • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
            01·
            4 个月前

            Nice strawman, I didn’t say it turns you into a feminist. I said Christianity and feminism demonize male sexuality and that ideology is deeply influential.

    • prrclld@sh.itjust.works
      1·
      4 个月前

      Most of the different waves of feminisms are actually quite vocal about masturbation being a positive thing regardless of gender.

      • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        4 个月前

        Feminists infamously had a moral panic about pornography in the 1970’s as adult theaters and the nascent home video porno market started to take off.

        They predicted porn would condition men to expect sex on demand and sexual assault rates would skyrocket when in fact the opposite happened.

        You see this same moral panic from feminists regarding AI girlfriends and you there’s a rising fundamentalist strain of feminism that still says porn is dangerous.

        • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
          1·
          4 个月前

          They predicted pron would condition men to expect sex on demand and sexual assault rates would skyrocket when in fact the opposite happened.

          Reminds me of “computer games turns teenagers into killer machines” saying.

      • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
        01·
        4 个月前

        The current 3rd/4th wave feminism finds male sexual pleasure very abhorrent. If you can find anything in the mainstream discourse coming from a feminist that says otherwise please share.

        Feminists can’t even agree to be against circumcision which is clearly genital mutilation.

          • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
            01·
            4 个月前

            I don’t find downplaying the gentital mutation of innocent babies funny. I’m not sure why feminists do.

            • Bertuccio@lemmy.world
              1·
              4 个月前

              Downplaying the nonsense that you tried to make more palatable by putting it next to actual issues and hoping you could use it to misdirect when you got called out, while also pointing out your completely untrue claims betray that you got justly called out for some IRL bad behavior and want to blame feminists for creating a social norm where that behavior is no longer tolerated.

        • BoneALisa@lemm.eeEnglish
          0·
          4 个月前

          Thats just not true my dude, there is nothing about feminist thought that says that male pleasure is abhorrent. To think so shows a lack of understanding of feminism…

          • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
            0·
            4 个月前

            Okay, post some mainstream feminist discourse that says otherwise. Highly influential feminists like Dworkin go as far as saying that any sexual intercourse with men is sexual assault.

            • Bertuccio@lemmy.world
              1·
              4 个月前

              “She is often said to argue that “all heterosexual sex is rape”, based on the line from the book that says, “Violation is a synonym for intercourse.” However, Dworkin has denied this interpretation, stating, “What I think is that sex must not put women in a subordinate position. It must be reciprocal and not an act of aggression from a man looking only to satisfy himself. That’s my point.”[1]”

              Second paragraph on wikipedia…

            • sushibowl@feddit.nl
              0·
              4 个月前

              First, Dworkin has never said that and did not think that.

              Second, she died almost twenty years ago my dude. Intercourse was published in '87 during the second wave of feminism. Why are you misquoting her as an example of current mainstream discourse? And even if we’re going to be talking about feminist views of the 80’s, you’re conveniently ignoring sex-positive feminism. The sex wars were like, the defining feminist debate of that era.

              • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
                0·
                4 个月前

                She did in fact say that and your link doesn’t refute that. And sex positive feminism is not sex positive for men. As I’ve said many times before I’m talking about mainstream feminist discourse. Feminist always use this tactic of digging up some progressive strain of feminism knowing full well it’s not influential.

                Dworkin may have died awhile ago but her work is still regularly cites and studies by mainstream feminism and her influence can be seen in movies like the Barbie movie.

                • sushibowl@feddit.nl
                  1·
                  4 个月前

                  She did in fact say that and your link doesn’t refute that.

                  Come now. She very clearly denies saying it in the interview I linked to:

                  Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven’t found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?

                  Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn’t saying that and I didn’t say that, then or ever.

                  If you want to claim she’s lying about her own statements, find me a direct quote of her saying it.

                  • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    01·
                    4 个月前

                    She did say it’s degrading and a form of contempt inflicted by men on women. In the context of the books it’s not at all unreasonable to interpret it as rape.

                    Regardless it DOES posit male sexuality and violence and degragation of women when it is expressesed.

                    Regardless that’s her influence even if unintentional and it’s all over media and culture.

                • aesthelete@lemmy.world
                  0·
                  4 个月前

                  Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn’t saying that and I didn’t say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse—it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.

                  The whole issue of intercourse as this culture’s penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the “all sex is rape” slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don’t think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.

                  It’s important to say, too, that the pornographers, especially Playboy, have published the “all sex is rape” slander repeatedly over the years, and it’s been taken up by others like Time who, when challenged, cannot cite a source in my work.

                  http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MoorcockInterview.html

                  • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    0·
                    4 个月前

                    All she’s saying is that she meant maritial sex is a form of violence because maritial rape was legal, which wasn’t even true.

                    It’s a distinction without a difference.

    • Archelon@lemmy.world
      0·
      4 个月前

      Christianity I can understand, but would you mind explaining why you think feminism demonizes masturbation?

        • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
          1·
          4 个月前

          Not really.

          Feminism embraces openness in society, including walking your own path.

          If that includes deviating from cis male sexuality, then yes, feminism does indeed allow that to happen, if it happens naturally. In other words: feminism does not force you to take part in the toxic masculinity circlejerk.

          In that way, yes, feminism probably reduces the amount of “male sexuality” which is basically toxic masculinity in the world. But it does not force that change, instead, it lets it happen.

        • Archelon@lemmy.world
          1·
          4 个月前

          See, that’s really interesting to me! The mainstream feminist spaces I’ve interacted with have been very sex-positive, so I’m curious how you’ve experienced this demonization.

        • underisk@lemmy.ml
          1·
          4 个月前

          That’s not an explanation you just restated the claim they asked you to elaborate on. What have you encountered that led you to this conclusion?

          • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
            01·
            4 个月前

            Yes it is, masturbation is a part of male sexuality. If you demonize male sexuality any endorsement of male sexual expression is an explicit endorsement of the harmful male sexuality.

              • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
                01·
                4 个月前

                Feminists posit that men are inherently predatory. See “toxic masculinity” debates. Influential feminists like Dworkin have even stated that any sexual intercourse with men is sexual assault.

                Mainstream media, which is deeply influenced by feminism, depicts male sexuality as dangerous “any man can be a rapist” while lying by omission about female predators.

                Being male is an inalienable trait and “toxic masculinity” inherently is borne from males. Things like sexual assault are “women’s issues” even though studies show men are assault at near parity to women.

                The list goes on, really shouldn’t have spent so much time answering because it’s so glaringly obvious so you’re arguing in bad faith.

                • underisk@lemmy.ml
                  2·
                  4 个月前

                  You’re making a lot of claims about things I don’t think you really have a grasp on. “Toxic masculinity” is not an implication that all men are inherently toxic. It’s a criticism of societal expectations for men that harm them and their relationships.

                  You’re saying that feminism has seriously hindered acceptance of male masturbation but all you’ve provided here is vague unsubstantiated implications of media bias and a single author’s name. I’m not going to read the entire collected works of whoever Dworkin is to figure out why you think they’re both representative of the entire feminist movement and also hate men wanking it. Give me something tangible here. A quote, a law they supported, a speech, a video, literally anything at all that isn’t just some insinuation that’s only attributable to yourself

                  I would consider myself a male feminist and I masturbate daily so if the movement thinks that’s wrong I’d like to know so I can stop describing myself as feminist.

                  • sushibowl@feddit.nl
                    11·
                    4 个月前

                    Andrea Dworkin was an influential feminist mainly in the '80 and '90. She was pretty clearly anti pornography, at least as it existed in her time (she died in 2005. Who knows what she might think of some of the stuff out there today). She’s also one of the most frequently misquoted feminists of all time, particularly by anti-feminists. she did not say all heterosexual intercourse was rape:

                    Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven’t found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?

                    Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn’t saying that and I didn’t say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse—it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.

                    The whole issue of intercourse as this culture’s penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the “all sex is rape” slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don’t think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.

                    It’s important to say, too, that the pornographers, especially Playboy, have published the “all sex is rape” slander repeatedly over the years, and it’s been taken up by others like Time who, when challenged, cannot cite a source in my work.

                  • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    01·
                    4 个月前

                    I do understand “Toxic Masculinity”. It’s right in the word and is much like how conservatives would blame " black culture" for the societal ills of African Americans.

                    You simply denying that that’s not what it is doesn’t debunk anything.

                    And we have a term for societal expectations already and it’s called gender roles. Which isn’t a loaded admonishment like toxic masculinity.

                    All of feminism revolves around the critique of men which is an inalienable trait.

                  • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    01·
                    4 个月前

                    I already cited several scenes from the Barbie movie in this thread which was celebrated as a feminist watershed.

                    The Duluth Model of determining domestic violence another example. Child support is another. The banning of paternity testing is yet another. You’re just being obtuse. I won’t engage with you anymore.

        • hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          1·
          4 个月前

          My ass. Yes, maybe some inviduals do, but feminism itself does not. Feminists only ‘demonize’ male sexuality when it starts turning into treating us as walking fleshlights.