Ended up on a rather unpleasant sub on accident, dunno where to post it lol. Not really fit to discuss these issues, but somehow I hear similar takes from leftists in my country from time to time, bruh.

full post screenshot + link

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ouq7es/for_the_last_time_feminists_are_antileft_you/ - post link

https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/ad7be930-e318-4c4e-98e1-b8f6397c147e.png - image link if it doesn’t load

very "sane and lucid" roe v wade take

https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/429ec0ac-dffc-4494-852b-2f75c68af535.png - image link

btw the person who posted these seems to be a genshin fan

      • Black AOC
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        102 years ago

        Y’know, I tried typing out a dramatization of the kind of shit I’ve heard irl and it enraged me before I could get done Spongebob-texting it all

    • @xxcvzvcxx@lemmygrad.ml
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      162 years ago

      Popular feminist movements have all been co-opted by the ruling class. They’re now in the processes of doing the same with LGBT (rainbow imperialism).

      American Politics basically:

  • ButtigiegMineralMap
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    202 years ago

    Yes tell me more about how Luna Oi akshyually hates the left and wants a feminine hierarchy that relies on killing all men

    • Seanchaí (she/her)
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      2 years ago

      Feminist theory is an exploration of the relation to reproduction and reproductive labour, whereby womanhood is a class stratified from manhood. Man and woman are classes through this lens, which is an essential part of understanding intersectionality.

      There are more systems of class than just labour relations. In the same way, race was constructed by colonizers to differentiate the class of settler from the class of exploited. A settler may be proletarian, but not the same class through a colonial race theory lens as a colonized proletarian. We can see this to be true through the myriad ways that access to rights (employment, food, water, shelter, medicine, etc.) are stratified between settler and colonized peoples.

        • @CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml
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          102 years ago

          They also think that class reductionism is basically a good thing because they believe class is all that matters to marxists. But of course class reductionism is better described as reducing class down to vulgarity that cant describe or explain the world than it is hyoerfocusing on class.

          • My understanding is that class reductionism entails reducing the definition of the term “class” to the classes that only describe the relationship to the means of production, ignoring classes in other areas (e.g. colonizer vs. colonized)

            • @CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml
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              102 years ago

              Exactly. It also ignores the stratifications of labor that develop under imperialism, rendering its fixation on the relationship to productivity unhelpful. But this is mostly done for exactly what you said, to ignore colonialism, racism etc.

              Ive seen a handful ultras wear the term class reductionist with pride. Its really a shame how close ultras are to being useful only for them to more or less turn out to be wreckers.

              • @cult@lemmy.ml
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                42 years ago

                You say “exactly” but I read two different definitions for what “class reductionism” is up above lol. I think your definition is much more in line with what online and “real-world” discussions tend to take up whereas @GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml’s definition is much more in line with academic definitions

        • Seanchaí (she/her)
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          92 years ago

          Lol, as Comrade Deer Tito said, my primary recommendation for this is Caliban and the Witch , an examination of the creation of the class of womanhood as a means of capital accumulation for men. I was also recently recommended the Gender Accelerationist Manifesto by Comrade ConquestofBed https://libcom.org/article/gender-accelerationist-manifesto

          I won’t say I’m 100% in agreement with everything there, but it is a very interesting read and gives a good look at the way that the abolition of gender as a class is an essential part of pursuing communism’s goal of abolition of class.

          • ⚧️TheConquestOfBed♀️
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            112 years ago

            Adding an excerpt from Women, Race, and Class by Angela Davis:

            While both the Socialist party and the IWW admitted women to their ranks and encouraged them to become leaders and agitators, only the IWW embraced a complementary policy of forthright struggle against racism. Under the leadership of Daniel DeLeon, the Socialist party did not acknowledge the unique oppression of Black people. Although the majority of Black people were agricultural workers—sharecroppers, tenant farmers and farm laborers—the Socialists argued that only the proletarians were relevant to their movement. Even the outstanding leader Eugene Debs argued that Black people required no overall defense of their rights to be equal and free as a group. Since the Socialists’ overriding concern was the struggle between capital and labor, so Debs maintained, “we have nothing special to offer the Negro.” As for the International Workers of the World, their main goal was to organize the wage-earning class and to develop revolutionary, socialist class consciousness. Unlike the Socialist party, however, the IWW focused explicit attention on the special problems of Black people. According to Mary White Ovington,

            (t)here are two organizations in this country that have shown they do care about full rights for the Negro. The first is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.… The second organization that attacks Negro segregation is the Industrial Workers of the World.… The IWW has stood with the Negro.

            Helen Holman was a Black Socialist, a leading spokesperson in the campaign to defend her imprisoned party leader, Kate Richards O’Hare. As a Black woman, however, Helen Holman was a rarity within the ranks of the Socialist party. Prior to World War II, the numbers of Black women working in industry were negligible. As a consequence, they were all but ignored by Socialist party recruiters. The Socialists’ posture of negligence vis-à-vis Black women was one of the unfortunate legacies the Communist party would have to overcome.

            According to the Communist leader and historian, William Z. Foster, “during the early 1920’s, the Party … was neglectful of the particular demands of Negro women in industry.” Over the next decade, however, Communists came to recognize the centrality of racism in U.S. society. They developed a serious theory of Black Liberation and forged a consistent activist record in the overall struggle against racism.

            When intersectional issues are not recognized, they are not prioritized, and the collective ends up siding with the oppressor class simply through neglect rather than by design. Intersectional feminism seeks to rectify this by weighing different systems of oppression together in order to get a picture of how individuals are affected by social and political relationships. Communists adapting this theory view these systems as class systems, ie: men are a higher class than women, white is a higher class than the various nonwhite classes, in the West being christian is a higher class than muslim, abled vs disabled, etc. The systemic oppression of disabled people can be pretty horrifying, and if you see how differently they’re treated by default, you start to see something that looks suspiciously like labor-based classism.

            Another example from Trans Liberation: Beyond Pink and Blue by Leslie Feinberg:

            So how can gender expression be mandated by edict and enforced by law? Isn’t that like trying to handcuff a pool of mercury? It’s true that human self-expression is diverse and is often expressed in ambiguous or contradictory ways. And what degree of gender expression is considered “acceptable” can depend on your social situation, your race and nationality, your class, and whether you live in an urban or rural environment.

            But no one can deny that rigid gender education begins early on in life—from pink and blue color-coding of infant outfits to genderlabeling toys and games. And those who overstep these arbitrary borders are punished. Severely. When the steel handcuffs tighten, it is human bones that crack. No one knows how many trans lives have been lost to police brutality and street-corner bashing. The lives of trans people are so depreciated in this society that many murders go unreported. And those of us who have survived are deeply scarred by daily run-ins with hate, discrimination, and violence.

            Trans people are still literally social outlaws. And that’s why I am willing at times, publicly, to reduce the totality of my self-expression to descriptions like masculine female, butch, bulldagger, drag king, cross-dresser. These terms describe outlaw status. And I hold my head up proudly in that police lineup. The word outlaw is not hyperbolic. I have been locked up in jail by cops because I was wearing a suit and tie. Was my clothing really a crime? Is it a “man’s” suit if I am wearing it? At what point — from field to rack — is fiber assigned a sex?

            The reality of why I was arrested was as cold as the cell’s cement floor: I am considered a masculine female. That’s a gender violation. My feminine drag queen sisters were in nearby cells, busted for wearing “women’s” clothing. The cells that we were thrown into had the same design of bars and concrete. But when we — gay drag kings and drag queens — were thrown into them, the cops referred to the cells as bull’s tanks and queen’s tanks. The cells were named after our crimes: gender transgression.

            @American_Communist22@lemmygrad.ml

            • Seanchaí (she/her)
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              82 years ago

              Angela Davis and Leslie Feinberg <3

              Indigenous feminist Jihan Gearon also talks about the specific way that patriarchy and cisnormativity was forced on Diné people through boarding schools and sexual violence:

              "Patriarchy gives men power and privilege at the expense of women and acts as the framework for the domination and oppression of gay, queer, and transgender people, as well as the stunted development of men. In Indigenous communities, it also erases and twists Indigenous teachings and worldviews on gender and sexuality, namely the diversity and power of these aspects and experiences. After all, Diné people traditionally have four genders based on the role a person plays in the larger community. The roles of naadheeh (feminine man) and dilbaa’ (masculine woman) have a unique ability and responsibility to act as translators between asdzáá (feminine woman) and hastiin(masculine male), and they have a unique ability to bring about balance between the masculine and feminine.

              However, patriarchy isn’t just entwined with the systems of colonization, white supremacy, and capitalism. Colonization, white supremacy, and capitalism need patriarchy to work.

              Women’s work is the original subsidy for capitalism. Reproductive labor is necessary for social reproduction [everything it takes for a labor force to replicate itself]: purchasing household goods, preparing and serving food, laundering and repairing clothing, maintaining furnishings and appliances, socializing children, providing care and emotional support for adults, and maintaining kin and community ties. It involves manual, mental, and emotional labor. As more and more people have come to realize during the COVID-19 pandemic, every human being needs this kind of essential work to live. Yet, reproductive work rarely even counts as work at all. Patriarchy teaches that it’s the “natural” role of women, and so, where it is paid at all, it is underpaid.

              This kind of capitalism and patriarchy goes hand in hand with colonialism. In Dinétah—my homelands now reduced to the Navajo Nation—we still practiced our traditional customs while we resisted the Spanish and were warring with the US, including our traditional matriarchal society that gave matriarchs the final say over land and resources. But when the US government force-marched ~9,000 of us to the Bosque Redondo internment camp in New Mexico, where we remained from 1864 to 1868, a time known as Hweeldi or the Long Walk, women were subject to new atrocities, commonplace rape, and forced into prostitution to survive.

              This was the beginning both of institutional sexual violence against our women and of a transformation of how women were viewed by our own people.

              The story continued when we signed our treaty in 1868 and returned home to a much smaller homeland. In signing the treaty, we also agreed to have our children educated in the US system. This meant sending them to boarding schools and forcing them to assimilate into western ways of thinking and operating. In addition to learning white supremacy, these schools taught our people the gender binary and the roles associated with it: that women are less than men, that queer people are unnatural, etc.

              When oil was discovered on Navajo Nation, a Navajo Nation Business Council was established in 1922, to sign leases and meet the demands of the oil companies. The Secretary of the Interior at the time, a friend to the oil industry, knew he could not open the Navajo Nation to oil development if he approached a diverse and distributed clanship system. So he created a “business council” and selected three Navajo men to serve on it. These men were likely born during hweeldi, and the first to be assimilated in boarding school.

              Women still had their livestock, of course, which allowed them economic autonomy and success: In the 1870s, we had 15,000 sheep; in the 1920s, we had 500,000; and by 1931, we had 2 million. But the colonizer doesn’t want us to be successful, so the federal government conjured up a policy called The Navajo Livestock Reduction, purchasing, removing, and slaughtering our livestock (and arresting those who opposed it). They also set up a grazing system, which ensured we would not be able to grow our herds again and that system is still used today. While this killed the economic autonomy of the Navajo people, it particularly impacted the women because they owned those herds. Men were away working as laborers, while women and their families still relied heavily on the sheep economy to survive. Killing these herds ensured that Navajo women too would have to depend on the wage labor, decisions, and direction of Navajo men."

              • Seanchaí (she/her)
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                2 years ago

                I find it astounding that there is a subset of Marxists who can argue the importance of decolonization, the evils of Imperialism, and the sexual violence and predation experienced by women primarily (through sex work and the porn industry as well, which is nearly-universally accepted as sexual violence by Marxists), but then argue that race and gender are not classes.

                Class: the system of ordering a society in which people are divided into sets based on perceived social or economic status.

                Even a look at a very basic definition should be enough to realize there are more ways to stratify people than just their relation to means of production. Class-based societies have existed since long before capitalism comrades, and if we do nothing to address the issues that capitalism has created by assigning race and gender classes, it will continue to exist long after capitalism has been destroyed. Communism’s goal is a classless society, but it seems there are certain Marxists who are content to remain in a classist society as long as their class is on top.

      • @cult@lemmy.ml
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        42 years ago

        Worth noting that this is just one strand of feminist theory. I think much of Marxist feminist theory (e.g. Federici) would appeal to you if you like this approach. However, postmodernist feminist theory is explicitly post-structural. There’s also a ton of theory overlapping with critical theory and even Afro-pessimism that takes a pretty fundamentally different approach to this analysis. Not to mention the existentialist feminist theories that are some of the most likely to appear in a “Intro to Feminism” college course lol

        • Seanchaí (she/her)
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          132 years ago

          Yes very true, I was talking specifically about Marxist Feminism as this is a Marxist community and such theory is likely to align more with what people are discussing here. Though I do often see that discussions of feminism, queer liberation and intersectionality are met with silent disapproval (which I don’t understand, if I’m in the wrong tell me why and let’s talk about it).

          Feminist/queer liberation politics are my particular fields of interest. I develop queer education curricula and am in the process of building an intro-level workshop for young adults/adult education students.

          • @cult@lemmy.ml
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            52 years ago

            Wow that sounds awesome! If you have a syllabus, I’d love to take a look. I kinda collect syllabi from cool college courses that friends of mine got to take that I never had access to lol. Always interested in learning what kinds of literature defines terms like “queer liberation” or “indigenous feminist theory” etc

  • Seanchaí (she/her)
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    152 years ago

    Wait’ll they learn about the invention of the class of womanhood as a relation to the means of reproductive labour

    • Seanchaí (she/her)
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      2 years ago

      I’m chuckling pretty hard at the LGBT comment in that second image, because there’s no W in there either

    • @tisamantis@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      Most of this person’s activity has been on that sub for at least 7 years. They’re not baiting, they’re just obsessed lol. There’s also plenty of people who share their viewpoint.

      I think what motivates them is bitterness, and that they’re likely being disingenuous, but what they’re trying to say is probably similar to what Zyuganov says in the speech below from 2021 that I dug up.

      Zyuganov's strange lines w/ translation

      Note: Zyuganov uses weird expressions that are rarely used in modern speech so it’s a bit weird.


      Headline: “Politicians determined the place of feminism in Russian politics” Text below headline: “Zyuganov said that womens’ parties go against nature”.

      On May 30, the Russian-speaking Internet celebrates “international day of feminism” - an unofficial, if not fake, holiday dedicated to the day of the death of Joan of Arc. Gazeta.Ru talked to Russian senators and deputies about whether feminism is needed in politics and why there is not a single women’s or pro-feminist party in Russia today.


      Chairman of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation Gennady Zyuganov:

      The most ingenious inventions of nature are a woman, flowers and a bee. The woman gave us all life, she bore all of us under her heart [means “gave birth” or “nurtured”, idk], so bow and show gratitude to her. Due to this, among all peoples everywhere, the mother is especially revered. Flowers germinate, produce seeds, and new plants sprout. And the bee is the main ecologist of the planet. Therefore, a woman should be treated first of all with love and respect. [ It’s not a mistranslation, just nonsense w/ hard to make connections ]

      As for feminism, in my opinion this is a hobby that does nothing good for women. A woman today is forced to raise her children at home, often alone. Why? Because today a man [says “muzhik”] cannot feed his family. We have never had such a disgrace. I have a paternal grandfather, he had eight children, six of them were teachers, he bore everyone [it says so lol], fed everyone, raised everyone. Of course, the Soviet authorities helped, and, in general, it was easier for women. My mother has taught elementary school all her life.

      As for the kindergarten, basically, women’s hands are nursing our children, making them full-fledged citizens, there are also a lot of female teachers in the school, and entire industries are in the hands of women. [means education system is dependent on women]

      I don’t know what feminists do, other than talk a lot, but as for real power, if there were more women in power, there would be more order, more conscience, more care for children and the elderly.

      Therefore, I am in favor of supporting women as much as possible, including by nominating them for deputy positions, for work. But at the same time, we must remember that nature created a woman in order to continue the human race and to decorate and ennoble our lives. Women should be loved, honored, bowed down and respected.

      Women’s parties are complete nonsense. The main purpose of the party is to propose an idea, assemble a strong team, come to power and realize what they promise people. Is a women’s party truly capable of deciding/achieving something alone? Of course not, that is unnatural and abnormal. We have a lot of women in our party - intelligent, literate, they work superbly, many guys take their example and look up to them. The party is an idea. I am against men’s parties, women’s parties, pensioners’ parties, beer lovers’ parties and so on."


      Source: https://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2021/05/28_a_13612496.shtml

      Article features interviews of various Russian politicians from different parties.

      Basically every deputy and statesman interviewed (except 2 women) says “women are cool and we need them in politics, but feminism and women’s parties are a no-no/unnecessary”. Co-Chairman of “A Just Russia” said: “All parties in Russia have women/represent women. Feminism is evil”. Pushkov says “since 60-70s women’s liberation movements have turned into anti-men movements”. As expected, there’s lots of concerns over traditional family roles being degraded and “women will stop having children!!11”, etc.

      This reality is really like a circus sometimes.

    • Black AOC
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      22 years ago

      Honestly, all I need to know I don’t want to fuck with that game is how the fandom reacted to criticism of how light the Sumerans are; saw more than enough ass-showing out of that gaggle for two or three lifetimes.

  • KiG V2
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    52 years ago

    Oh gawrsh the brain dead be contagious or something im getting dizzy 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

  • @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 years ago

    You cannot be a socialist and not support women’s liberation and equality. Literally read Lenin. Read Alexandra Kollontai. Read Klara Zetkin. Read Angela Davis. Marxist feminism is essential to the communist movement. Bourgeois feminism however - the liberal idealist conception of feminism focused on aesthetics, individualism and token representation instead of analyzing the intersectional class dynamics of gender oppression - is a fake feminism that only benefits the upper classes.

    • Seanchaí (she/her)
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      42 years ago

      They don’t think feminism is real, I doubt they’re radical feminists of any sort, trans exclusionary or otherwise.

      • AgreeableLandscape☭
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        2 years ago

        Like most anti-femminists, they almost certainly think the words means “female supremacist”, not “please treat female humans like humans”