Yeshiva University turned to the court for an urgent ruling after a state judge said it should register Pride Alliance.

To be honest I’m not even sure what the point of student associations is anyway. Shouldn’t students all have access to services without joining associations? If students can form associations, does it matter that much what the association is about? I understand from an organizational standpoint that a Jewish organization wouldn’t want to incorporate or support something that’s against Judaism, but you can’t really stop students from associating, can you?

If students can form associations, does it matter that much what the association is about?

We have laws to protect against hate and harming others. If you freely associate a group to spread hate, this should not be allowed. I disagree with the supreme court here in that they should not allow universities to suppress non-hateful groups. But then again, they want to openly discriminate against pretty much all minorities given their stances on existing supreme court precedence so it’s not surprising the court found the way it did.

Chris Remington
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…a Jewish organization wouldn’t want to incorporate or support something that’s against Judaism…

I’ve been involved in academic biblical studies for over 30 years. There is NO biblical NOR Talmudic prohibition against LGBTQ.

These misunderstandings (and sometimes this is just straight up intentional bigotry) are almost always formed in conservative and/or fundamentalist religious groups.

Your position on this is a bit extreme it seems, but I agree there is a modicum of leeway in how religious Jews and Christians can deal with the issue in spite of the fact that homosexuality is regarded as a sin in their traditions.

Chris Remington
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Your position on this is a bit extreme…

It, really, isn’t. This is the scholarly consensus shared worldwide. And it’s not a personal position. It is a scholarly on based one textual analysis.

…homosexuality is regarded as a sin in their traditions.

Again, ONLY conservative and/or fundamentalist groups which are, almost always, the minority.

I hate to say that but what you are claiming simply is not true. You are the one espousing a minority opinion but claiming it’s the majority opinion in order to give it greater credence, it seems. It is obvious and does not need to be argued, that Christianity and Judaism have traditionally condemned homosexuality. What is the point of misrepresenting this?

Chris Remington
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Let’s think about this in a very simple manner. These texts were written between 3,000 and 5,000 years ago by humans. Do you believe that ancient human beings understood things (sexual, moral, ethical, etc) the way we do today? It’s like asking what the biblical texts thought about Phillips head screwdrivers.

The part of biblical scholarship, that is very focused on how people would have thought about a particular subject, is called reception history. I’ve studied this for over twenty years and the biblical texts do not prohibit NOR do they address any modern concepts such as LGBTQ+.

You are, now, accusing me of misrepresenting and misinforming people which is NOT nice. Our guiding principal, at Beehaw, is ‘Be(e) nice’. Thus, I’d suggest that you back down from your stance.

Cold Hotman
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You are, now, accusing me of misrepresenting and misinforming people which is NOT nice. Our guiding principal, at Beehaw, is ‘Be(e) nice’. Thus, I’d suggest that you back down from your stance.

I don’t think this is a very nice way to solve what could be a misunderstanding.

Chris Remington
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What would you suggest? Please, show how I am not being nice.

Cold Hotman
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What would you suggest?

I’d try to clarify my stance on the topics I felt misrepresented, perhaps using an analogy or using other examples. If I though the other side couldn’t or wouldn’t understand my point of view, I’d simply end the conversation due to a failure of communication.

Please, show how I am not being nice.

It’s easy to interpret the paragraph I quoted as them having the wrong opinion, and if they don’t change it they are at risk from getting banned from the server. That doesn’t seem very nice.

I also see a subjective “be nice” as not very suited for a community. With subjective rules, there are no objective standards people can aspire to or be held to. I’ve seen other sites where similar practices have led to per-case judgement instead of by precedence and equality, and thus creating an unfair, not very nice situation.

Chris Remington
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It’s easy to interpret the paragraph I quoted as them having the wrong opinion, and if they don’t change it they are at risk from getting banned from the server. That doesn’t seem very nice.

I was addressing the false accusations they made against me. This had nothing to do with opinions.

Also, this is not a matter of opinion as I stated above:

This is the scholarly consensus shared worldwide. And it’s not a personal position. It is a scholarly one based on textual analysis.

@Gaywallet has addressed what ‘be(e) nice’ means more eloquently than I could. This is what a large group of us have decided to be our ‘northern star’ or guiding principal when we are here, on Discord, on Matrix, and any other place we interact together.

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You are, now, accusing me of misrepresenting and misinforming people which is NOT nice. Our guiding principal, at Beehaw, is ‘Be(e) nice’. Thus, I’d suggest that you back down from your stance.

To my understanding as an Ex-Christian, Christianity and Judaism have indeed traditionally condemned homosexuality (going back a significant time interval, also variously classified under sodomy which also covers way more), and I believe that the earliest form of Christianity also condemned homosexuality, which is part of the reasons I de-converted.

Chris Remington
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What I’m referring to, specifically, is the past decade. In the past ten years, give or take, Christianity & Judaism condemning (from the pulpit) LGBTQ+ persons is a minority position mainly held by fundamentalist and/or conservative groups.

I believe that the earliest form of Christianity also condemned homosexuality…

There, simply, is not any textual evidence to support this. I have studied the early Jesus movement leading up to the second century of Christianity and there is no condemnation toward personal sexual practices.

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What I’m referring to, specifically, is the past decade … Christianity & Judaism condemning (from the pulpit) LGBTQ+ persons is a minority position mainly held by fundamentalist and/or conservative groups.

I don’t think they are the minority though. I crosschecked the U.S. religion statistics and Catholic, Southern Baptist and United Methodist seem to be the largest denominations.

There, simply, is not any textual evidence to support this. I have studied the early Jesus movement leading up to the second century of Christianity and there is no condemnation toward personal sexual practices.

After reading other resources, I changed my stance on this but not entirely convinced of either side. It could be just that the issue of non-heterosexuality didn’t arise enough to be explicitly addressed in the early Christianity, or some political movement were at play, or some confounding factor of how homosexuality behaviors were expressed at that time.

Chris Remington
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I don’t think they are the minority though

At the very top of that wiki: “The examples and perspective in this section deal primarily with the United States and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject.”

Pec
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Then it’s even better since it’s the U.S. Supreme Court

Chris Remington
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This makes no sense. My point was about the global scholarly consensus that the biblical texts do not address LGBTQ+ issues as they are understood today AND Christendom globally does not consider homosexuality to be a sin.

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Ok, I reread the comments and I think I found the issue: (me, lisko etc): we might’ve mixed up “scholarly” and “theological” approaches (the latter of which is more evangelical-conservative, while the former is more anthropological).

I would still argue that the latter is more prevalent in communal practice, and thus is representative of what the majority (or at last a significant minority) of U.S. Christians currently think.

Chris Remington
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I understand where you are coming from. If you knew my personal backstory and what I have experienced, then I believe you and others would at least entertain where I am coming from.

People are going to believe whatever they want to believe. That fact is bittersweet and sometimes it saddens me.

Let me put it to you plainly. If there is a ‘god’ or ‘higher power’ that wants human beings to suffer in every way imaginable, then I don’t want to have anything to do with it.

The ineffable has shown me, on several occasions, that this is not the case.

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I am being nice but I just don’t think it’s reasonable to make this claim that you are making, that these faiths did not condemn homosexuality. The first paragraph in your last response seems to support exactly what I’m saying, because you’re saying well those religions are thousands of years old so they didn’t know any better. So, we are in agreement, right?

However, there is a deeper point in your first paragraph worth looking at. Your claim that ancient humans didn’t know about things which we have today like Phillips head screwdrivers (which did not exist, and they didn’t know what that was), doesn’t apply to things like sexuality and morals (which did exist, and they were familiar with them). Homosexuality isn’t a new thing; it’s been the same for a lot more than three or five thousands years. Humans have been having sex for a heck of a lot longer than that.

What it seems to me that you are doing, is creating modern reinterpretations of ancient religious traditions in order to have them suit you better, rather than looking at them as long-standing traditions, which is how most people understand them. Also, I can’t understand why this revision matters so much to you.

You never did say why it matters to claim that the majority of Christians don’t believe homosexuality is a sin. We all know that this isn’t true, but is it that important to be with the majority? You can just say the majority is wrong, and your minority or heterodox view is right.

I understand wanting to reform Christianity and Judaism rather than abandoning them, but so far my view on these recent attempts to refashion them into LGBT religions as a pipe dream. Why not just abandon them and find another religion (or none at all)?

There is NO biblical NOR Talmudic prohibition against LGBTQ.

Reliable source on this?

misunderstandings (and sometimes this is just straight up intentional bigotry) are almost always formed in conservative and/or fundamentalist religious groups.

For this as well?

Mostly interested in understading these points if they are true.

Chris Remington
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Sex and the Single Savior is one example. You could always just search https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBibleScholars/. All of this has been covered in both subreddits extensively.

vxnxnt
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To be honest I’m not even sure what the point of student associations is anyway.

I’m honestly not really sure myself. But from just having done some research online it looks like associations are meant to represent the students and advocate for their needs?

By that measure an LGBT association sounds reasonable

Catraism-Stalinism
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Time to stock up on weapons comrades

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