- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
Experts alerted motor trade to security risks of ‘smart key’ systems which have now fuelled highest level of car thefts for a decade.
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It’s so difficult to use a regular key though.
I’ve had to cancel journeys before because I get in the car and I just cannot work out how to turn it on 😞
I finally did but…gawd turning a key is so much work!
We need a turnkey solution for this, stat!
You have to use your hands? That’s like a baby’s toy!
They struck gold in the most horrible way possible: People dependent on their cars + their car keeps getting stolen = infinite money printing machine
I hear americans love big cars. Here is big car for them to buy:
Dude youre being a condescending ass, plenty of us wish we had the ability to use public transit but it is either wholly insufficient or non existant in many places.
Just using myself as an example, say I want to go to taco bell I have 2 options drive for 15 minutes at most or walk for over 2 hours because my city is built on a fucking slope. Also the city has no infra city public transit cause we’re too small, also most of the city is actually pretty walkable if you live towards the center of the East West axis which I do not.
I find it hard to believe cities are too small for public transit and too big to walk at the same time. I find it easier to believe people are just too lazy for a 30 min walk.
It wouldnt be too big for wlakability if it wasnt on aa fucking slope, 30 minute walk downhill will translate into an hour minimum walk up hill.
Have ya tried a bike/ebike? Till I was 26 all I ever used was a bike. Can easily do 20km/hr and bypass traffic. Used to work 12 hr shifts and bike to and from work (12km) and where I am there are hills in both directions
Shit I got an e bike now that does 50kph/32mph and I can get to work (8km) in less than 15 min
I used to bike all around town in highschool and middleschool, but the problem is that they only shave off so much time relatively speaking. Also once again I must note I live in the worst part of town for walking or biking anywhere, bout 30 minutes to walk anywhere bout an hour and a half minimum to walk back home.
30 min walk is maybe a 10 min bike ride, 1.5 hr walk maybe 30 min.
I’ve had a few bikes stolen from me, never stopped me from biking. And it’s a shit ton better than walking
fuckcars folks trying not to be the most annoying person in the room for one second challenge (instant fail)
Look, I love good public transportation infrastructure as much as you. I always try to tell other people and especially the government how much my city urgently needs to upgrade its trains, BRTs, sidewalks, etc (thankfully though there’s now multiple efforts on building MRT & LRT).
But, that doesn’t mean cars are the worst invention in the history of man–you folks always say that and it’s infuriating to me, it’s such a narrow-minded way of seeing the world.
Take Japan for example, the train infrastructure is pretty much the best. I know that cuz I’ve been there, trust me, I can talk about this for hours. So good that, while we lived there, we didn’t feel the need to buy a car. Their bus is pretty good too. Sidewalks, bike lanes, accessibility, etc have been taken into account when they were building their city.
But when you live in rural parts of Japan, it’s inevitable–you need cars. There isn’t just enough demand for public transportation. Sometimes there’s a train going through but the frequency is low, and most of the time it’s only single-track. Or sometimes there are buses going through, but infrequently.
And it’s fine. The city is small, and there aren’t enough car users to make bad traffic congestion.
Different story for big city though. I always thought that living in a big city is a form of compromise: you have a limited space of land to use, but you need to use that land for millions of people. If the city only relies on cars, it’s going to be so inefficient. Too much traffic congestion, bad pollution. That’s why good cities build mass transportation, or in your case, buses.
And the best cities build extremely good mass transportation so good that people doesn’t feel the need of buying cars. Of course cars still exist, like the city I lived back in when I was in Japan. Or rural parts of Japan. Or perhaps people that commute between them. But there are options: cars, bikes, buses, trains, etc.
Here’s my point: the availability of options are the best. It’s okay if you want to ride cars, bike, bus, or trains.
Cause you’ll need cars at some point in your life. And it’s alright.
Looks like ya hit a sore spot with some millimeter peters
Wut?
Small dick people downvoting
Ah
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Convenience is usually at odds with security.
That said, keyless access is amazing. Not having to dig out the car key is just so comfortable.
My favorite keyless car:
I wish one of them went from my home to my place of employment or my places of entertainment, much less at a time that’s reasonable
The bus trip home from the nearest transit route can take up to half an hour for me due to how often it comes and its path. The drive from the transit stop is 3 minutes.
Not that it matters, I still wouldn’t be able to get to the nearest grocery store on the bus, inexplicably none of them go there. These systems need work.
Too many weirdos peeing in your favorite car, harassing other passengers, stinking, and listening to their music full blast on their portable speakers for it to be my favorite car.
I have a key fob faraday cage/pouch keychain to prevent people from being able to dupe my key fob’s signal.
Seems like keyfobs need an on/off switch for signal broadcasting.
Honestly this is a great idea. You could likely even make one yourself with a couple wires, a switch and a piece of tape.
Aren’t all cars within the past decades using rolling keys?
This article does not do a good job of explaining what the attack vectors are.
Damn wtf. I think I learned of this and forgot
It’s near impossible to clone the signal from newer rolling codes, you need to trigger the key fob with out the signal reaching the car and then recorded with the flipper zero, then played back to the car. It takes a lot of coordination using the key fob. Here are some videos of it.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/HwdoHMVKTpU?si=BZpgfJRsOjquIqL1
https://piped.video/5CsD8I396wo?si=5Mkc6EFUH2HZG9vo
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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Those videos aren’t for cars with keyless entry. Those cars have a bladed key for placing in an ignition lock cylinder to start the vehicle (or in the case of the mini, which is a car I actually own, into the little slot for the round key fob).The flipper zero recording a code isn’t what I am talking about when I talk about repeater attacks. What I’m talking about is using a receiver to receive and amplify the code so that they can use keyless entry (where you simply touch the vehicles door handle with your hand with the key within three feet of the car) and only requires you to have the key on you. Did you read the other comment I linked? This isn’t about having a key with buttons that are required to be pressed to enter the car. This is literally about passive keyless entry. Please go read the articles I linked.
I mentioned nothing about signal cloning and you clearly didn’t read.
https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/definition/passive-keyless-entry-PKE
Oh my bad, I was inferring that from the original article. Those articles you posted are good and talk about the CAN attack, but the original article talks about the rolling codes using a flipper zero like device.
My bad, I didn’t intend to come off badly, I just literally had a similar conversation when someone who didn’t read what I wrote, completely ignored whole sections of the article, and I may have come off a bit terse as a result. But you are correct about the flipper zero specifically.
Among other things, this is why I wanted a house with a garage. I just keep my car in the garage.
I’m very much in the minority in my neighborhood though. Everyone seems to use their garage for other things then park in the driveway or on the street. It annoys me to no end.
Garages aren’t at all secure, FYI. There are a number of ways in, from physically hooking the release that hangs from the opening mechanism, to cloning the wireless fob (much, much easier than car fobs.)
Yea, but I’d also hear that since it means I’m home. That’s the important part. If my car is on the street or in the driveway gonna be harder to tell it’s my car taking off. And even if I did, it’s already too late for me to do anything about it.
And my garage has no windows so you can’t even tell if there’s a car in there.
Eh, you’d likely be surprised. If your garage opened at 4am and you were dead asleep, would you actually hear it? Because I sure as hell wouldn’t.
Don’t get me wrong, I leave things in my garage unsecured. I just make sure to deadbolt the interior door.
Just wanted to make sure to point out that a garage isn’t as secure as the inside of your house. (And even that isn’t very secure.)
Yes. Curse of being a light sleeper now. It’s also right under my bedroom. Plus, even odds on me still being awake at 4AM.🙂
It’s still an extra hurdle, an attacker will prefer a car parked outside in the driveway.
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Odd thing to be that annoyed by. I don’t understand people who obsess over the way other people’s houses look. Unless you have an expensive car or a project car it seems like a waste of good space to store a car in the garage. But hey, to each their own.
If I had a garage it would totally be used for shop space and storage. Most people here seem to use their garages as additional space. My car can survive the rain just fine outside. The tools and equipment I wish I had space for, not so much.
Shame you let other people’s reasonable decisions bother you. Not everyone wants to obsess over opening a car.
Public space used for the storage of personal items, paid for by tax or rate payers…
A car sitting outside all the time will absolutely wear much faster than one that’s in a garage. I mean people can do what they want, I don’t care, but it’s not just a cosmetic thing to keep your car indoors when you’re not using it.
I mean, a garage or covered parking is better than leaving a vehicle out in the elements in a fair few cases (hail storms, snow - especially in plow areas or places where they salt the roads, etc). It’s nice in inclement weather to be able to get into a vehicle dry and not exposed to the elements. Your insurance may be cheaper because you aren’t parking a vehicle in the open where it could be vandalized or stolen.
I don’t care what their house looks like. But it does make it more difficult to navigate the street when they park at the curb, blocking the view on the curves and at the stop sign. And park right at the entrance so it’s a hassle to get in and out because that’s also a curve.
When I moved in I was worried the truck wouldn’t be able to make it to my house because they park on both sides of the street. Thankfully I did it during the day so they were mostly gone.
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These are different attack vectors.
The classic one was listening to a key, then impersonating it later.
Rolling keys fixed that.For keyless, the usual attack is working as a relay.
Victim is 30m from their car, too far for keyless.
Attacker stands between the car and the victim with a transceiver that links the car and the key together, despite the distance, and opens it.Yes.
If you have an older renault with a keyless card, press the lock button two times and it will disable the keylless system until you start the car. It hink this should be the standart.
The newer hyundai and kia dont have a good immo, they can be started by breaking the ignition lock and turning the start key, also if you can catch the unloxking signal you can reuse it. Normaly you wouldnt be able to start a car without an immo chip, that is tied to the car. Normaly you woulnd be able to unlock the car because the remote and the car keeps changing the unlock code, but to make these cars cheeper for America market they removed these futures.
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are they talking about smart phone app to unlock cars or the keyless entry that has been around since the 90s?
Both, honestly. But the real problem in this case is the keys that can open and start a car with their mere presence. A relay attack makes bypassing them trivial, and when a large number of people leave their keys at the front door, it’s not difficult to give it a shot.
Not my fucking car, no matter how many modules I change, my Prius Will not open with the fob. LOL.
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For one, completely remove presence based unlock and start would be a good first move. They are inherently insecure, as they are much too easy to relay attack.
Next, alter fob controls to encrypt the communication with private/public keys tied to the specific car. This way, even if the fob communication is intercepted, the information is functionally impossible to reverse engineer.
Finally, implement two way communication. An initial handshake followed by the command. This would functionally remove any chance of a replay attack. Even if the handshake is recorded, the fob won’t send the command.
These three changes would essentially remove any chance of using a device like a flipper for entry. Yes, it would still technically be susceptible with a relay attack, but the chances are so slim as to be essentially impossible.
It didn’t need to be warned anyway. it knew. they always only ever lie.
I mean sure… but using a key to enter isnt really any safer? Like lock picks and jimmys and air bags have been defeating physical locks for even longer? Hell, a brick through a window gets you in faster than anything.
Riiight. Go ahead and apply that logic the next time you want to get in your house. Or brick your way into your car since it’s easier. Hopefully nobody spots you and calls the cops! You’re definitely not being a dickhead just by making that argument either, don’t let anybody tell you that. Those words needed to be said, it was important! And anyway the rest of us are so stupid we probably think we actually need keys.
I mean… to break into a keyless car you need special radio interception and replay equipment, the know how to implement them, to keep up on the latest security measures from car manufacturers, and car thief communities developing security counter measures.
Or get a coat hanger, watch a YouTube video, and get into any car you want.
Or get a coat hanger, watch a YouTube video, and get into any car you want.
Still not much more effort than a flipper zero but it is more expensive than a coat hanger.
Okay but did the stockholders profit? Yes? Goddamn right they did.
“THAT WASN’T MY QUESTION!!! WILL THEY MAKE ITS MONEY???”
These keyless ignition cars should never have been legal and the manufacturers should be on the hook for recalling and fixing them.
I’ve been saying that since they were first released.
That flipper zero (not disguising a car theft tool as a game device btw) can be used to attack said cars is irrelevant, because you could trivially order the parts to make your own.
I hate that the insurance lobby is winning out on security by obscurity via lobbying governments and putting out scary statements, instead of hiking the rates for Kia’s and other trivial to steal cars. The insurers are having their cake and eating it too by wanting to charge money but lacking the wherewithal to actually charge rates commensurate with risk.
It’s not just a car theft tool, its not really even intended for that. It’s just a neat little multi tool and it isn’t even close to the first or only device capable of repeating recorded codes. A hammer can be used to break into a car really easily and nobody’s ever called those “car theft tools disguised as hand-tools”
Yes sorry if that was miscommunicated. It’s a neat multi tool, that has a fun design. It’s not a tool for stealing cars, but can be used for that kind of thing.
Really its a wonder we didn’t have really simple radio tools for theft before.
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Where I live, insurance companies have been charging higher rates on most Kia models specifically because of how targeted they’ve become by thieves.
Literally nothing is secure.
Nothing wireless is secure, especially when dealing with end user electronics.
The only possible exception is WiFi and commercial wifi services like 4G/5G… In the case of WiFi, it really depends on the configuration. A local ISP was, by default, programming their combination router modems for WEP security for years after it was known to be insecure, and for years after tools to obtain the security key for WEP were commonly available. However, WPA2 and now WPA3 is used by corporations to secure their wireless traffic, and those technologies have been made available to the public on almost all consumer WiFi products made in the last few years, though, some may need to be updated to show the option for it. As far as I know, as of now, WPA3 has no known vulnerabilities that will allow a hacker to penetrate into the subject network. The weakest part of the system is people using poor passwords for their wifi, which can be easily guessed, which is not a fault of the technology itself.
IMO, the best, most shining example of well implemented security is PKI, which is used in HTTPS/TLS. A high security asymmetric key is used to generate a short-term use symmetrical key to secure the communication. It becomes basically pointless to try to break the encryption at that point.
But this isn’t the issue in the OP. The problem is: where does everyone keep their keys? If you said “at the front door” you’d be right. In most cases, keys are at, or very near the front door. Where are most people’s driveways? At the front of their house, next to the front door. There’s usually enough distance to keep the fob from being detected by the car and unlocking it for anyone who walks up, but with a small amount of tech, attackers can pull the signal through your front door and relay it to the car. The process is actually kind of trivial. This is known very aptly as a relay attack. One attacker with a high gain antenna loop, places that loop on or near your front door, while their partner has another device which is relaying the signals from the high gain antenna to the car. This makes the car think the key fob is nearby, and it unlocks the doors, and the vehicle can be started.
Once started, the vehicle will not automatically power off if the fob goes out of range, since that would create an unpredictable safety hazard. At this point the attackers only job is to get the vehicle somewhere that they can work on it for an unlimited amount of time, and program new fobs for it (which can be done with diagnostic tools).
The best way to prevent this is simply not to keep your keys in range of your front door, nullifying the attack. Otherwise, buy an RF blocking key box to put them in at the front door. Something that automatically closes would be beneficial here; something with a Faraday style mesh, or lead (embedded in the walls of the box) would be best IMO. Keep any spare keys in a similar lock box elsewhere in the home.
My family has our keys, at least 10 feet away from the door for storage, in our kitchen. It’s a short walk from the door down a tiled hallway, which makes for easy cleanup if someone walks over to get their keys from that location with muddy/wet boots or something.
Relay attacks are very common and easy to execute with a high degree of success. To their credit, manufacturers have done their diligence in implementing anti-replay attacks (where an attacker well record the signal to unlock/start a vehicle, then replay it later for access), but the relay issue is harder to account for. From the perspective of the car, or simply looks like you started the car, dropped your fob on the ground and drove away. This is a legitimate scenario, and one that is entirely plausible for an end user to create unintentionally.
I just looked it up specifically for Tesla ….
- there are descriptions of a successful relay attack in 2022
HOWEVER
- the relay had to be within 2” of the key card or phone
- I expect Tesla responded, although I didn’t look that up
- while I originally could just walk up to my Tesla to use it, now I need to unlock my phone, at least implying that either Tesla or Apple prevented relay attacks by blocking the key when you’re not using it
The real question, is how easy is the car to “hot wire”. Older cars could be hot wired by breaking off the ignition lock, but now cars with keys have an immobilizer to prevent that (except of course Kia/Hyundai). So, can the lack of a key fob be easily worked around to start a car, like a Kia, or is it more complex like a key with an immobilizer chip, and an immobilizer circuit in the engine control?
I think the next step is likely biometrics. Using a fingerprint or something to disengage the immobilizer. Having something like a programming key for the vehicle so users can enroll new fingerprints into the ignition.
I don’t know, it might be a bit more inconvenient than other options. IMO, they can keep the fob for door unlocking but have another factor for the immobilizer. Both the fob and fingerprint need to be present to engage the starter.
I’m sure it’s something that the automotive companies are thinking about.
A rock through the window is more effective and faster than reading this wall of text.
I apologize for trying to educate.
Have a great day.
That’s great for stealing the laptop you left in your back seat, but doesn’t let you steal the car, unless it’s pre-2022 Kia/Hyundai
Seems to be specifically about these you unlock from your phone and then press a button to start
A device disguised as a games console - known as an “emulator” - is being exploited by thieves to steal vehicles within 20 seconds by mimicking the electronic key.
Don’t they use rolling codes? So I suppose this emulator is some malware you install on your phone
Could be the Flipper Zero that Canada just banned, due to it’s use in car thefts.
The flipper zero can’t get around rolling codes, unless it’s a very specific situation. Car thiefs aren’t using them.
The OP’s quote leaves out the “It is being targeted at Hyundai and Kia models.” part. From what I can find those brands are (were?) susceptible to rollback where sending an old code reactivates codes that came after it
https://www.reddit.com/r/flipperzero/comments/z2fq6h/broken_rolling_code_system_old_sent_signal/
I think you would still have to wait for the owner to use their keys.
Default firmware cannot, and most cars won’t work. But specific makes have decades old security holes that still exist in new models… for reasons? And custom firmware unlocks the firmware limitations.
So technically possible, but banning the flipper doesn’t fix the security hole. It’s like banning a hammer because it can break a window. It’s now more difficult to do construction work, and crow bars still exist.
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Don’t they use rolling codes? So I suppose this emulator is some malware you install on your phone
I would hope that they would use rolling codes, but I would also not be all that surprised if they did not. Car manufacturers have cheaped out for less.
The emulator part seems like it’s confusing a few different things together. Although I’m a little suspect of that, since someone holding up a games console to a car or house is suspicious anyway.
It could also be described as an emulator (emulating the key), and the crossover with game emulators might be causing some confusion?
A dedicated device might make sense there, if it has better antennas, or better capabilities than would be available with a basic phone, in addition to being less technical than having to install an app and fiddle about with all of that.
Yeah, someone got confused with all the terminology. Probably also old people think small stuff with a screen looks like a gameboy?
Don’t know about the article, but most have been doing relay attacks by just forwarding the rolling code sent by the key to unlock and then start the car. It works because keyless entry requires a transaction starting from the car, so you can effectively just stand between the car and wherever the keys are and do easy relay attacks.
Then they usually drive it to a nearby safe location first so they can just reprogram the keys.
I do feel like this could at least be cheaply mitigated by having an immobilizer for the gas pedal that stops throttle input if the key isn’t detected after a cooldown after moving a few feet, which would prevent thieves from being able to move the car very far after starting.
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Y’all ready for the same article to come out about various smart home devices?
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To be fair, I think we ignore the security of physical locks. Atleast one must get physical access to the lock in order to pick it.
Or even password books. Atleast someone has to get physical access to said book, which requires knowing it exists in the first place.
Does that make them better? No, not imo, but it is an aspect of these things that often gets overlooked
Atleast one must get physical access to the lock in order to pick it.
It’s a fair point, but if we’re taking about cars, I’d say physical access is a given. Keyless vehicles haven’t quite enabled remote car thefts just yet
I’d also like to point out that most modern vehicles use rolling codes to prevent replay attacks. I’ve only recently learned this as I was concerned about devices like the Flipper making these sorts of techniques to people that otherwise would lack the expertise to put such a device together themselves
They can also take into account the time it takes to travel from the request to the response so if you’re 2x the distance away with a relay that somehow works in the middle, it would take too long and be rejected.
This is lockpickinglawyer and today I’m going to show you picking 100 locks in 100 seconds
This is the LockpickingLawyer and today I’ll show you just how easily I can pick the door to the bunker you’re hiding in. And there we have it.
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The fuck?
