Sorry to be the guy that brings controversial issues to this thread. But this kind of thing is exactly why the “trans women have a biological advantage in sports” argument holds no water. (Other than the fact its almost entirely untrue)
People from this region have a biological advantage in their sports, several orders of magnitude more of an advantage than trans women have. But no one is calling for these people to be banned from sports.
Sorry to be that guy, but this picture gives us no evidence that the advantage of these people is biological and not the result of other factors such as culture or environment.
This picture doesn’t, but if you look into it then you’ll see studies have shown the Kalenjin people have quite small ankles and calves which mean their legs weigh less and so make it easier for them to run long distances.
That isn’t to say genetics are the sole reason they are good. But it’s undeniable they have a genetic advantage.
Maybe a small advantage, but they also have a culture of training specifically for long distance running. That’s almost all of it. The size of your ankles doesn’t matter if you don’t practice.
There are better ultra marathon runners in Mexico who look nothing like these Kenyans. They barely warm up with a marathon, so they don’t place highly. They are good because their culture involves running ultra marathons. They will keep running for fun long after everyone else has died.
Training is what matters. If you went and joined a running club in Kenya, you would be able to beat any Kenyan who didn’t practice. It’s 99% practice.
Ultra marathons are an entirely different sport from the 10k, and even marathons. Obviously training matters, but we also don’t have to pretend all humans are identical and only training and grit separate them.
I mean yeah no shit someone who trains to run marathons is going to be better at running marathons than someone who doesn’t.
The point is when you get to the highest level, where everyone is putting in the absolute max hard work and training, then their biology gives them an advantage.
My point is, you are putting too much emphasis on genetic gifts. Take a sport like basketball, where being tall is clearly an advantage. It’s a much bigger advantage than “small calves” are in running. You basically can’t play in the NBA at all unless you’re 6ft or taller.
Even among people 6ft 9 and up, you really have to practice with a good teacher. Someone who’s a foot shorter will easily beat you if they are good.
Running isn’t just “moving your legs”. There’s strategy that these guys learn from their running group at a young age. They practice running as a sport. That’s why they’re good.
It’s the same reason why people from the US, who are all genetically different, play basketball and baseball better than most other countries. They practice it competitively when they’re young.
Nobody is arguing that someone who doesn’t train is going to be magically better at a sport than someone who does train.
But like you yourself literally just said, there’s a reason everyone in the NBA is over 6 foot. Because when you compare a 6ft6 dude that trains to play basketball and a 5ft6 dude that trains to play basketball, then the tall guy is going to be better because of his biological advantage.
And that’s why these people make up the best long distance runners in the world, because COMpARED TO OTHER PEOPLE THAT TRAIN FOR LONG DISTSNCE RUNNING they have a biological advantage.
Because again, to make this really clear. No one is saying that biology makes it so these guys can magically be world class athletes without training. But when they do train, they do better even when compared to people that trai just as hard as they do, that learn the same strategy from the same young age they do and practice it as a sport like they do.
If you took an average white European baby and raised them in a Kalenjin village exactly like any other Kalenjin, and trained them to be a long distsnce runner from a young age just like a Kalenjin, they would never be able to be the best at it, because of their biology, just like the 5ft6 guy will never get into the NBA no matter how hard he practices. Because their will always be other people practicing just as hard as he is, but with a biological advantage.
several orders of magnitude more of an advantage than trans women have.
Have there even been studies which can back up this claim¿? Hell have there even been studies which even measure how much of an advantage having smaller calves and ankles gives¿?
9 Conclusion
There is no firm basis available in evidence to indicate that trans women have a consistent and measurable overall performance benefit after 12 months of testosterone suppression. While an advantage in terms of Lean Body Mass (LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA) and strength may persist statistically after 12 months, there is no evidence that this translates to any performance advantage as compared to elite cis-women athletes of similar size and height
They’re resorting to saying “trans women are stronger than their competitors, but how do we even know that being stronger is advantageous in sport???”
the article you share concludes that trans women have no advantage which is greater than other biological advantages
Noit doesn’t. You are misrepresenting it, or misuing the word ‘concludes’. It never says anything like “we conclude’ that there is no advantage”. The actual conclusion is on p40-41 and can more honestly be phrased as “we cannot conclude that there’s a definite advantage. Strength is a possible exception, but how do we even know strength is relevant to sport?” (“Additional biomarkers (such as handgrip strength, hip angle, bone density) have been
used uncritically in positivist biological studies to demonstrate cis men’s purported
biological advantages over cis women, but there is not sufficient evidence these
measures are salient to the question of trans women’s participation.”)
Do you really think that cis women can’t have naturally high testosterone levels? And especially not higher than trans women, who literally have their testosterone levels controlled by medications?
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Sorry to be the guy that brings controversial issues to this thread. But this kind of thing is exactly why the “trans women have a biological advantage in sports” argument holds no water. (Other than the fact its almost entirely untrue)
People from this region have a biological advantage in their sports, several orders of magnitude more of an advantage than trans women have. But no one is calling for these people to be banned from sports.
Sorry to be that guy, but this picture gives us no evidence that the advantage of these people is biological and not the result of other factors such as culture or environment.
This picture doesn’t, but if you look into it then you’ll see studies have shown the Kalenjin people have quite small ankles and calves which mean their legs weigh less and so make it easier for them to run long distances.
That isn’t to say genetics are the sole reason they are good. But it’s undeniable they have a genetic advantage.
Maybe a small advantage, but they also have a culture of training specifically for long distance running. That’s almost all of it. The size of your ankles doesn’t matter if you don’t practice.
There are better ultra marathon runners in Mexico who look nothing like these Kenyans. They barely warm up with a marathon, so they don’t place highly. They are good because their culture involves running ultra marathons. They will keep running for fun long after everyone else has died.
Training is what matters. If you went and joined a running club in Kenya, you would be able to beat any Kenyan who didn’t practice. It’s 99% practice.
Ultra marathons are an entirely different sport from the 10k, and even marathons. Obviously training matters, but we also don’t have to pretend all humans are identical and only training and grit separate them.
I mean yeah no shit someone who trains to run marathons is going to be better at running marathons than someone who doesn’t.
The point is when you get to the highest level, where everyone is putting in the absolute max hard work and training, then their biology gives them an advantage.
My point is, you are putting too much emphasis on genetic gifts. Take a sport like basketball, where being tall is clearly an advantage. It’s a much bigger advantage than “small calves” are in running. You basically can’t play in the NBA at all unless you’re 6ft or taller.
Even among people 6ft 9 and up, you really have to practice with a good teacher. Someone who’s a foot shorter will easily beat you if they are good.
Running isn’t just “moving your legs”. There’s strategy that these guys learn from their running group at a young age. They practice running as a sport. That’s why they’re good.
It’s the same reason why people from the US, who are all genetically different, play basketball and baseball better than most other countries. They practice it competitively when they’re young.
I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall here.
Nobody is arguing that someone who doesn’t train is going to be magically better at a sport than someone who does train.
But like you yourself literally just said, there’s a reason everyone in the NBA is over 6 foot. Because when you compare a 6ft6 dude that trains to play basketball and a 5ft6 dude that trains to play basketball, then the tall guy is going to be better because of his biological advantage.
And that’s why these people make up the best long distance runners in the world, because COMpARED TO OTHER PEOPLE THAT TRAIN FOR LONG DISTSNCE RUNNING they have a biological advantage.
Because again, to make this really clear. No one is saying that biology makes it so these guys can magically be world class athletes without training. But when they do train, they do better even when compared to people that trai just as hard as they do, that learn the same strategy from the same young age they do and practice it as a sport like they do.
If you took an average white European baby and raised them in a Kalenjin village exactly like any other Kalenjin, and trained them to be a long distsnce runner from a young age just like a Kalenjin, they would never be able to be the best at it, because of their biology, just like the 5ft6 guy will never get into the NBA no matter how hard he practices. Because their will always be other people practicing just as hard as he is, but with a biological advantage.
Do you get it now?
What
Have there even been studies which can back up this claim¿? Hell have there even been studies which even measure how much of an advantage having smaller calves and ankles gives¿?
Nope: https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
They’re resorting to saying “trans women are stronger than their competitors, but how do we even know that being stronger is advantageous in sport???”
You need to work on your reading comprehension. XD
Do you think that an advantage in terms of strength translates to any performance advantage?
I think that “maybe” having an advantage in terms of strength is an admission that the research is incomplete.
The document is full of admissions that the research is incomplete.
Hence, my comment to Sentau’s question about the research.
Did you mean ‘yes’. Because the article you share concludes that trans women have no advantage which is greater than other biological advantages
Noit doesn’t. You are misrepresenting it, or misuing the word ‘concludes’. It never says anything like “we conclude’ that there is no advantage”. The actual conclusion is on p40-41 and can more honestly be phrased as “we cannot conclude that there’s a definite advantage. Strength is a possible exception, but how do we even know strength is relevant to sport?” (“Additional biomarkers (such as handgrip strength, hip angle, bone density) have been used uncritically in positivist biological studies to demonstrate cis men’s purported biological advantages over cis women, but there is not sufficient evidence these measures are salient to the question of trans women’s participation.”)
There are tall asians, but there are no testosterone flooded women.
On an unrelated note, can i turn off reply notifications to posts ?
What does that have to do with anything?
Yes there are. Things like Polycystic ovary syndrome or Nonclassic congenital adrenal hyperplasia can cause women to have high levels of testosterone.
And also trans women take HRT to drop their levels of testosterone anyway so your point isn’t even relevant.
Removed by mod
Oh don’t they just lol.
Do you really think that cis women can’t have naturally high testosterone levels? And especially not higher than trans women, who literally have their testosterone levels controlled by medications?
Learn to behave.
And as naturally high as men ? Probably not. (Hence the “floded”)
Remember Caster Semenya?
Yes the famously Asian country of Kenya.
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Got a problem with examples ? Ok, i’l dumb myself down for you.
There are really short Kenyans.
Did i said something that hurt you so much that you want me to delete my acc ?
I think we should add biological in front of male and female just to remove any confusion…
That’s what AMAB (assigned male at birth) and AFAB (assigned female at birth) are for.
So now we now have to add A M/F AB (sport here) just to appease y’all?
You’re the one who suggested adding terms. And who are “y’all”?
Sorry I forgot the /s
Anyone who thinks a male who “transitioned” well after puberty and then competes with females.
It is just a silly notion. Find me a female that transitioned and broken a single record.
These people are just trying to play on easy mode to feel better about themselves at others expense and it’s beyond pathetic.