This is a serious question, I want to understand your views. I know very little about the Chinese system, but from what I know it doesn’t seem to be very communist at all, but rather a capitalist state to rival the US. Why do you all defend it so viciously?
I think it’s pretty clear that China is nothing like US. I think it’s important to look where the labor and resources are allocated in the country. In a capitalist state like US, they’re primarily allocated towards producing surplus value for the capital owners, meanwhile production of socially useful things is entirely incidental.
On the other hand in China, we see huge amounts of resources devoted towards ending poverty. They are on track to eliminate abject poverty this year. They poured more concrete in three years than US has in the entire 20th century. They provide food, housing, healthcare, and education for the vast majority of the population.
China also hasn’t shown aggressive imperialist tendencies like US. Since the 1970s, China has not once gone to war while US has not spent a day at peace. Since 2001, the U.S. has spent over $6 trillion on military operations and war, money that might have been invested in the infrastructure of home.. So, while capitalism drives constant war and exploitation, socialism is improving the quality of life for the people of the nation.
Furthermore, CCP has 90 million members. This comes out to 15.5 citizens to every party member. Xi has also introduced reforms that make membership more strict in order to prevent careerism. So, every person in China either personally knows a party member or related to a party member. This translates to China having strong social programs, providing housing, education, and healthcare for their citizens that I mentioned above. People in China predominantly agree that the party is working in their interest.
China now surpassed US in number of fortune 500 companies, and 24 out of the 25 largest companies in China are state owned.The only private company on there is Huawei which is technically a cooperative. China also keeps their billionaires on a leash, and actually jails them which is unheard of in the West.
It’s also worth remembering that China is working towards communism. Nobody is saying that the current situation is the end state. Both Marx and Lenin say that you can’t just create a communist society out of the blue. It has to be a process to transform it gradually towards communism. This is the whole idea behind withering of the state. Lenin also correctly notes that it’s not possible for this to happen until communism is the dominant ideology in the world. The capitalist forces are always going to fight communism, and a state is needed to combat that.
China obviously has made mistakes, but that’s just how life works. It’s not possible to do something completely new and get everything right on the first try. However, what’s important is that China is clearly learning from their mistakes and improving as they go along. This is in line with the concept of implementing scientific communism.
“Socialism is when concrete is poured. Wow, I can’t believe you Dengists actually believe that. That’s clearly what you were saying and I’m totally not taking one part of a greater argument out of context to act like it is your only argument because my own personal understanding of socialism is completely idealistic and based on simplistic blanket terms rather than material analysis and understand of material conditions. Uhh…so I’m right and you’re wrong, and to emphasise that point, I’m going to call you a Dengist again.”
(Sorry if this bit is getting old, I’ll stop if people want me to.)
😄
Why is this post getting brigaded, and by whom?
I’m gonna be honest, some people in these circles have a way too delusional view of China for my liking, and will defend basically every part of it.
I personally think you don’t have to do that. There’s a lot of problems in China, and it doesn’t make you a “bad Marxist” to admit that. I still support it however, while it’s not perfect I wouldn’t say it’s a capitalist country like the U.S. and I think the world is a better place with China in it than if the U.S. had zero competition in the world stage.
The U.S., Brazil, and India all have far-right crazies in charge. Can you imagine the world if China wasn’t what it is? The world would literally be dominated by fascists. I’ll always prefer a “not so perfect” communism to fascism and shit like that. God knows what kinda leadership China would have right now if it wasn’t for the communist party.
Yeah, I wish it was better and I do think there are serious issues. But compared to the alternatives, I’m glad China exists and I support them.
China isn’t facist? How so? So they don’t suppress other opinions and cultures? They don’t lock up and kill people they don’t like? They are not imperialistic? They’re not almost an autocracy?
You are a bad Marxist because you didn’t understand or read his works carefully. For Marx, Capitalism was a necessary evil to reach true communism. A vehicle. He predicted technological and social advances, step-by-step, until we reach communism. So to debate which country is a „good communist country“ is moot as there can’t be real communism yet.
Whether it is China or the western world who’ll reach true communism first will have to be seen. I for one see Europe ahead of China and especially the US, as Europe - at least ideologically - strives to make everyone equal under the law / give everyone the same opportunities. It has homework to do on tue technological front, but that’s nothing unachievable. Whereas culturally, China and the US are better technology wise but far away socially and culturally.
I think sometimes people (myself included) will joke that “China does nothing wrong” mainly because it is the opposite of the liberal mentality of “everything that happens in China is bad, even the objectively good stuff, like curing cancer (but at what cost?!)”
Some people might take the joke a bit too far sometimes, or someone who is fairly new to socialism might go a bit too far, but most tend to calm down after a while.
some people in these circles have a way too delusional view of China for my liking, and will defend basically every part of it.
Which defenses have you found to be problematic in these supposed circles, enough to warrant the title of ‘delusional’? Have you realized we’re in a new cold war, with an increasing possibility of a hot war by the day? What need is there for any western leftist’s unheard “nuance” in the current moment? You see people defending the PRC fiercely because they understand the stakes and rightly treat a dangerous moment with utmost seriousness.
Yeah, I wish it was better and I do think there are serious issues.
Why are you telling us this and not bringing your vague concerns to the CPC itself? What is the reason any western leftist even brings this up in the first place anyway?
OK, and so that means you can’t say 1 bad thing about China? That makes no sense, especially in our circles. I understand defending China when talking with liberals or conservatives, cause they have no right criticizing China when they support systems that are 20x times worse and more cruel.
But I don’t understand why a leftist shouldn’t be able to bring up the number of billionaires in China, for example, when talking to other leftists without being labeled as some sort of traitor or propagandist or some other dumb bullshit. “They have less and more regulated billionaires than the U.S.” – yeah, I think that’s awesome, I would still prefer if billionaires didn’t exist though. And me saying that doesn’t mean I’m equating China to the U.S.
Or human rights – yeah, I know and constantly criticize the U.S. on their human rights violations – what kind of hypocrite would I be if then I stay silent or just says “well, the U.S. is worse” when China is brought up. Fuck that.
Leftists that don’t support American/western bullshit should absolutely have a right to level reasonable criticism towards China or any Marxist country.
You’re acting like I’m putting my criticism of China above criticism of the U.S. and other countries when that is clearly not what I said. I said I support China, but that shouldn’t mean complete blindness and absolute support in absolutely every fragment of their rule.
I should be allowed to think their economic system isn’t perfect without getting berated that “you just don’t get it, it’s all part of the plan man, just wait a few more years, you’ll see.” I’m not calling for the destruction of Chinese communism or saying the U.S.'s system is better for fucks sake.
Why are you telling us this and not bringing your vague concerns to the CPC itself?
What is this even supposed to mean???
What is the reason any western leftist even brings this up in the first place anyway?
Because you’re allowed to criticize stuff you support dude. What, if China tomorrow started, I don’t know, killing gay people for example, should I just not talk about it ever?? Come on, don’t be such babies. Or if you have a friend that you love and support, is it a sin to criticize them or call them out when they’re doing something bad?
OK, and so that means you can’t say 1 bad thing about China?
You can. You’ve already done it, several times in fact. Don’t focus on can, focus on should. Where does this urgent desire to say bad things about the PRC come from anyway? What I’m really asking you is: When you exercise your speech, what do you hope to accomplish by saying PRC is bad sometimes? Who are the people you hope understands and agrees with you that the PRC is bad sometimes? What do you think is most likely to result from you saying that the PRC is bad sometimes?
But I don’t understand why a leftist shouldn’t be able to bring up the number of billionaires in China, for example, when talking to other leftists without being labeled as some sort of traitor or propagandist or some other dumb bullshit. “They have less and more regulated billionaires than the U.S.” – yeah, I think that’s awesome, I would still prefer if billionaires didn’t exist though. And me saying that doesn’t mean I’m equating China to the U.S.
Why should you bring it up in the first place?
Or human rights – yeah, I know and constantly criticize the U.S. on their human rights violations – what kind of hypocrite would I be if then I stay silent or just says “well, the U.S. is worse” when China is brought up. Fuck that.
You would indeed be a hypocrite if you believed that the PRC was a particularly egregious offender of human rights or are anywhere near the level of the US. Do you?
Leftists that don’t support American/western bullshit should absolutely have a right to level reasonable criticism towards China or any Marxist country.
Sure. Make sure it is constructive though. To make a constructive effort in criticizing, you should be taking your concerns to the CPC itself, built on an educated foundation and with viable solutions taking into account the material conditions. What you’ve been doing so far has been complaining to us. Congratulations, you’ve felled a tree in the forest while the CPC was away in the city. There are 2 ways this criticism can go. You can go tell the CPC that you’ve felled the tree, or you can fashion a spear from the bark of the tree with which to stab the CPC with (destructive criticism). This latter thing is what the libs/China watchers do btw, which is complain to Big Brother (US gov) so that he hurts (regime change) that meanie (PRC) over there. We socialists actually do the same thing but with regards to the US instead: complain to Big Brother (US masses) so that he hurts (revolution) that meanie (US gov) over there. Why? Because we seek its destruction, hence destructive criticism, just as the libs seek the destruction of the PRC. Now apply this logic to when the left sets its sight on the PRC and does what you’re doing. Can you see why I’m your questioning your intentions?
Because you’re allowed to criticize stuff you support dude. What, if China tomorrow started, I don’t know, killing gay people for example, should I just not talk about it ever?? Come on, don’t be such babies.
This is not a reason and you probably know it already. This is just doing it for the sake of doing it. I didn’t ask whether or not you were allowed to do whatever. You spent so much time wondering if you could, you never stopped to think if you should. Again, when you exercise your speech, what do you hope to accomplish by saying PRC is bad sometimes? I want to know why you just HAD to let us know that the PRC is bad sometimes, when “PRC isn’t perfect” has probably been repeated a million times in every defense ever made at this point.
Or if you have a friend that you love and support, is it a sin to criticize them or call them out when they’re doing something bad?
No, but in this scenario, you actually have the power to do a constructive critique. Because here you have a better understanding (educated foundation) of your friend and you’re more aware of their material conditions and can hence come up with proper solutions. Most importantly, you are talking to them directly and not rallying a group of bullies to denounce your friend. The citizens of the PRC are in this position whilst you on an online forum in the heart of Empire are not.
So, are you like a paid Chinese Internet turfer or what? Does it pay better than genociding Muslims in the concentration camps?
I wouldn’t say we viciously defend it, after all even if China wasn’t socialist it’d be worth defending from an anti-imperialist perspective. China emerged from years of colonial subjugation (the century of humiliation) after the Chinese revolution, and built what is today the only country capable of challenging US world domination.
Really though, China’s massive improvements in life expectancy, real wages, and living standards show that its socialist, planned system is working.
No system is perfect, especially in a transition away from world capitalism, and subordinating the market economy to the will of the CPC, to provide for the needs of the people, and protecting China from western interventionism, remain the most important tasks for the CPC.
As far as “China not being communist”:
- The backbone of the economy is state ownership and socialist planning. 24 / 25 of the top revenue companies are state-owned and planned. 70% of the top 500 companies are State-owned. 1, 2
- Didn’t China go Capitalist with Deng Xiaoping? Didn’t it liberalize its economy? Is China’s drastic decrease in poverty a result of the increase in free market capitalist policies?
- Is the CPC committed to communism?
- The Long Game and Its Contradictions.
Sorry sweaty, but 24/25 is not good enough and revisionism. Don’t you know that billionaires = revisionism as well?
Plus, economy success is a terrible way of measuring the socialistness of a nation. It means unequal development, which is a thing that exists under capitalism which means, you guessed it! Revisionism! The only true way to be a socialist nation is for everyone to be equally poor and struggling and ideologically pure. We can’t allow a single non-socialist in a socialist country, regardless of if they hold political power or not. A people’s democracy means doing what is purest and not actually listening to the people after all.
/s (I do have my own issues with China’s unequal development, but I can also recognize when the CPC actively aims to improve things on that front. China didn’t freeze in place in 1978.)
What I’ve figured over reading and studying theory for myself is when you think you’ve understood Socialism and specifically scientific Socialism, you read something else that shows how little you know. There is no specific formula for how to build Socialism in a country. In the 19th century the international wasn’t going around imposing a one formula for all; they would learn the conditions of a specific nation and critique the party programme of their labor or workers or social democratic parties. Was NEP Russia not Socialist? Well Lenin tells you why that’s not true. Marx as well knew that the new society would be marked with the birth pangs of the old. Communists do not see capitalism as totally evil but rather as a great tool that greatly develops the productive forces. Once those forces are developed enough then they can be used to build Socialism.
If you don’t think China is a socialist state, then before you critique it, you need to spend time studying it from the perspective of communists. This is something Anarchists and the western left refuse to do, which is why there’s a trend within the popular left to see China as a failed state that fell to capitalism and despotism. In reality, though China has many flaws, it does many things right and proves that a socialist planned economy and Marxism-Leninism can beat capitalism at its own game, while uplifting millions and crushing imperialism.
We’re not just upholding the enemy of the United States, we’re also defending a genuinely socialist state that genuinely attempts to dislodge capitalism’s monopoly on global politics. Even if you don’t agree with China’s domestic policies - to which there are a few questionable ones - you would be a fool to be opposed to their foreign policies. You would also be a fool to oppose the only state strong enough to challenge American hegemony during a time when American hegemony is on the way out, and the Americans are trying anything keep their diseased fingers in other nation’s business.
Bolivia staged coup 2019 玻利维亚上演政变2019 North Dakota Access Pipeline Protests 北达科他州接入管道抗议 Ferguson Riots 弗格森暴动 2017 St. Louis protests2017年圣路易斯抗议活动 Nuclear testing at Bikini Atoll 比基尼环礁的核试验 Unite the Right rally 团结右集会 Charlotte riots 夏洛特暴动 Attack on the Sui-ho Dam 袭击穗河水坝 Milwaukee riots 密尔沃基骚乱 Shooting of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile 奥尔顿·斯特林和菲兰多·卡斯蒂利亚的射击 Occupation of the Malheur NationalWildlife Refuge Malheur国家野生动物保护区的占领 death of Freddie Gray 弗雷迪·格雷的死 Shooting of Michael Brown迈克尔·布朗的拍摄 death of Eric Garner, Oakland California 奥克兰奥克兰市埃里克·加纳(Eric Garner)逝世 Operation Condor 神鹰行动 Occupy WallStreet 占领华尔街 My Lai Massacre 我的大屠杀 St. Petersburg, Florida 佛罗里达州圣彼得堡 Kandahar Massacre 坎大哈屠杀 1992Washington Heights riots 1992年华盛顿高地暴动 No Gun Ri Massacre 无枪杀案 L.A. Rodney King riots 洛杉矶罗德尼·金暴动 1979 Greensboro Massacre 1979年格林斯伯勒大屠杀 Vietnam War 越南战争 Kent State shootings肯特州枪击案 Bombing of Tokyo 轰炸东京 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing 旧金山警察局公园站爆炸案 Assassination of MartinLuther King, Jr. 小马丁·路德·金遭暗杀。 Long Hot Summer of 1967 1967年炎热的夏天 Bagram 巴格拉姆 Selma to Montgomery marches 塞尔玛到蒙哥马利游行 Highway of Death 死亡之路 Ax Handle Saturday 星期六斧头 Battle of Evarts 埃瓦茨战役 Battle ofBlair Mountain 布莱尔山战役 McCarthyism 麦卡锡主义 Red Summer 红色夏天 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Pottawatomie massacre 盆大屠杀 Jeju uprising 济州起义 Colfaxmassacre 科尔法克斯大屠杀 Reading Railroad massacre 阅读铁路大屠杀
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They’re aren’t perfect but they’re a force of damn good over all with building projects in their nation along with others vs bombing and instigating battles, standing up the US and mostly being chill rather than outright hostile, not to mention they care a lot more about their people than the US does, lifting the most out of poverty and all. Even if they weren’t socialist as few here have written, you have to admit that’s laudable.
Even going back to Engels you don’t get from socialism to communism overnight, its a multistep process. I think Xi has helped soften some of the contradictions Deng left sharp with opening trade, but back in the day that just had to be done to adjust to material conditions of the time and prepare for the turn of the century and the US hegemony. To have the people ultimately control the market is a good step toward getting to later stages of socialism and some future time, communism. Deng’s method wasn’t pretty and errorless, but reality rarely is, you can’t daydream of the best instant-communism perfect no-error just add revolution, its just not founded in reality, we’re working in a material earth with a complex history and relations between people. They don’t simply ‘go away’.
It’s AES (Actually Existing Socialism) like Vietnam and Laos. Therefore, I defend it.
Are you a communist?
Yes. I’ve been more interested in Russia and Cuba though, so I don’t know much in terms of Chinese communism, but I’m interested in the conflict between leftists who either hate or love China.
So far, I’ve been exposed more to the former than the latter, so I’ve been leaning more that way, but I obviously don’t want to commit to either view without seeing both sides’ arguments.The whole problem arises from the misconception that “markets” or “market mechanisms” are anti-socialist or non-socialist or that they are intrinsically capitalist. Yet the replication of a market for socialism is just that: using the same mechanics to boost productivity. In addition: Vietnam and Laos have done the same thing. And China has neighborhood committees, unions, and cooperatives that work with the government. I would suggest watching Bay Area415’s video on the subject.
Was just gonna link this as a good introductory vid.
@QCry@lemmygrad.ml Socialism with Chinese Characteristics (SWCC), is quite a rabbit hole, and there’s a LOT of misconceptions and falsehoods about it, esp since China is the target of this new cold war.
Once you get some time, here’s a lot of readings / articles I’ve compiled.
The problem is people have read more Maoist theory than they have Deng Xiaoping Thought or Xi Jinping Thought.
Of course, why would I waste my time reading garbage?
You admit your stupidity. You call it garbage, but also admit to never having read it.
That is un-critical, un marxist.
No investigation, no right to comment.
It’s hilarious how these so called “Maoists” basically do everything that Mao was against. Nothing says “dialectical” quite like worshiping a guy instead of actually reading any theory he wrote and only reading “interpretations” of what he wrote like he was some kind of prophet.
Its not even a communist/socialist country… lol
Its just the name of the political party the runs it like any other self centered capitalistic country.
Its like those countrys with “republic of” but they are actually a dictatorship. (How many other political parties are there, in china?)
You’ve come in to a three year old thread only to not say a single true thing.
China is a socialist country, and has been for a while now. The only reason you think any inkling of capitalism being present somehow means they aren’t socialist is because you aren’t using the right framework to look at the situation. You think it must be either-or, when a socialist country can take advantage of aspects of a capitalist system. There is no class of capitalists, and there is no reliance on or subservience to investors. It doesn’t have the characteristics of capitalism: it is not an economic system based on private property. The use of a market economy also doesn’t make it not socialist: the basic economic system is socialist, and a socialist market economy plays a role in the allocation of resources and distribution[1].
There are other political parties in China, and they’re permitted. The fantasy that only one party is permitted to exist is just that, a fantasy. From what I can tell there are currently at least 8 political parties, and there have been many others in the near past. Also, the fact that most people support one party is not evidence that people are forced to support it; it’s evidence that that party serves the needs and desires of its people. People support the party because it benefits them.
Your comment just reads as ignorance. If you are actually curious about China, and aren’t just going to sling talking points you’ve heard from Western sources, there are plenty of resources to help you learn about it. If you don’t bother to put in the effort, then don’t try to offer up what you think must be true.
Boer, R. (2021). “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics”. ↩︎
I don’t support China
Ignore socialism for one moment
China developed from sub saharan African conditions only 40 years ago
They went from feudalism and a century of humiliation before the Chinese Communists came to power in 1949
Prior to 1949 the life expectancy was 35
20 years under Mao this had doubled to 70 years old
Since 1979 China has not been in a war and has gone from said sub saharan African conditions to a space faring civilisation landing on the far side of the moon and putting rovers on Mars
They did this without the hyper exploitation of colonies and wars of imperialism for conquests of booty
The Chinese people know what life was like a generation ago - their parenta tell them. The Communist Party of China enjoys a 89% approval rating of Chinese people precisely because they’ve lifted up the greatest number of humans out of poverty in such a short period of time
For that alone China should be praised daily by the world proletariat and the world socialist movement in the face of the most reactionary and murderous regime the world has ever seen (US and its puppets in Nato)
We can, of course, get onto comradely critiques of whether China is in socialism, whether they have succumbed to revisionism etc.
But we can only do that, as far as im concerned, when youve said your ten hail marys to China and thanked the CCP for it’s unbelievable sprint of humanity it has done for the human race since 1949
I agree with almost all of what you’ve said. Except quoting a approval rating from a one party state that you could possibly be imprisoned or otherwise punished for disapproving of.
Honestly, because I think it’s fun. There is a lot of popular hate for China/communism and I enjoy putting together sound lines of reasoning which contradict these popular views.
My mom said I should have been a lawyer.
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I mean, I’ve never been there so I don’t know anything about it and I don’t make enough money to “support” a country. So I don’t really know what OP means by that.
My response was more in line with OPs closing question on why people defend the actions of a country like China. It’s fun for me to take the unpopular position. It’s kind of like a devil’s advocate role
It doesn’t matter what I think of the Chinese system, I will defend China till my dying breath bc people still conflate it with communism, so, as a communist, defending China is a net positive.
