It’s not belittling genocide opposition. It’s belittling those who hold democracy ransom over a single issue that they don’t understand, and weren’t even aware was happening for the last several decades.
You claim to be against genocide several times on your account.
And I also know that compromise is how things get accomplished.
Your strategy has managed to move this country to the extreme right wing. Time to admit it doesn’t work and try something else.
Go ahead and look through a history book and see how many times protest votes and not booting succeeded in actionable results.
Oh the irony, you’re the one with reading to do. I’m building a movement to improve the country and it starts with support. You would be proudly shouting down civil rights protestors back in the day.
You’re the one doing nothing, yes I went though history and checked, turns out not doing anything like you changes nothing. Your plan: vote dem and do nothing for 4 years. My plan: build a movement by supporting the Green party so we have an opposition forcing the Dems to give concessions.
You’re going to…. “Build a movement.” Right. So, while you were checking on how much change was brought by doing nothing, did you come across the myriad people that “built movements?”
Because that shit pretty much started back in the 60’s. And it took them until 1984 to even start the Green Party. And they’re been “building movements” since.
So what exactly are you going to do differently than people more organized and smarter than you didn’t do over the past four decades?
The only way that could possibly effective is if it was paired with comprehensive voting reform in every state (well, every state that matters).
A third party cannot win with the current first-past-the-post system. It’s so obvious that I can’t imagine why it would need to be explained. Have a good leftist candidate, it’ll take votes from the liberal. Popular conservative alt candidate, will take votes from the Republican. With our current roughly 50/50 balance, either one could result in the candidate with less support for their ideology winning. That’s how you end up with something like (theoretically) 25% Stein, 35% Biden, 40% Trump, and Trump wins because he had the plurality. Great.
You’re voting third party in a First Past the Post election structure, so you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the specific incarnation of democracy you exist within.
Yes, opposition to genocide is just because those who oppose it are unenlightened, not because it’s fucking genocide.
and weren’t even aware was happening for the last several decades.
Biden hasn’t been selling weapons he knows will be used for genocide for the past several decades. Now do the thing where you sling gaslighting and abuse.
For someone who had nothing to say about Palestine before October 7th, you sure love talking down at others from that high horse.
Your comment is history is almost entirety anti Biden rhetoric, and snarky rebuttals. People have tried to reason with you. You seem to have no desire to debate in good faith at all, so you should understand that It raises questions as to your motive here.
You have not, and will not find a single person here who supports genocide. Not one. Nor will you find anyone that thinks Biden handling of Palestine to be acceptable in any way. So STOP accusing people of this nonsense.
It makes you look foolish.
What people have CONSTANTLY tried to explain to you- is that this situation is very complicated. It’s nuanced. It’s not so simple to demand that something you don’t like be stopped immediately.
Either make an attempt to debate in good faith or don’t debate.
For someone who had nothing to say about Palestine before October 7th, you sure love talking down at others from that high horse.
Do you suppose that there might have been something that happened between then and now that might have made the genocide undeniable to all but a few bad faith actors?
Your comment is history is almost entirety anti Biden rhetoric
I have been massively dissatisfied with his performance, with one notable exception: he exceeded my expectations on student loan forgiveness.
You seem to have no desire to debate in good faith at all, so you should understand that It raises questions as to your motive here.
The accusations began the very first time I said that Biden should stop supporting genocide.
You have not, and will not find a single person here who supports genocide.
At the very least, genocide denial in the face of obvious genocide is support for genocide. Yes, I have encountered that right here on lemmy.
Nor will you find anyone that thinks Biden handling of Palestine to be acceptable in any way.
Seen that too. And not just from the deniers. Mostly it takes the form of “every president since the formation of Israel has been complicit, why start having a problem now?” Sometimes it’s “we can’t stop selling Netanyahu weapons because Republicans will call us antisemitic.” Both are defenses of Biden’s actions themselves, and not merely an admonition to vote for Biden on the grounds that Trump is undeniably worse.
Of course Trump is worse, and that’s why I’m voting for Biden. But as long as Biden supports genocide, I’m going to say he should stop doing that.
It’s not so simple to demand that something you don’t like be stopped immediately.
I’m not going to ask for patient incrementalism over the course of decades here.
I’m not really clear why. Biden has ran a competent administration and it’s been like night and day compared to the chaotic horror of the trump admin. Of course, Biden should absolutely be pressured to change policy on Israel. AIPAC is a very powerful force in US politics, however. This is likely to be a close election and talking endless shit about Biden and encouraging people from voting or encouraging them to vote 3rd party absolutely is a gift to Trump. Netanyahu would love for Trump to be elected, as would Putin. It would be a greenlight for them to be even worse in their respective wars. Denigrating Biden and eroding his support will not solve anything for Palestine, and will totally screw Ukraine and Americans.
Quite obviously, I oppose genocide, and the Palestinians have deserved much better for years. Throwing this election over that issue makes absolutely no sense, though.
Of course, Biden should absolutely be pressured to change policy on Israel.
Democrats in general should be pressured to be better on a host of issues. Complaints are seen as evidence of a vast international conspiracy to install Trump.
This is likely to be a close election and talking endless shit about Biden and encouraging people from voting or encouraging them to vote 3rd party absolutely is a gift to Trump.
I’m not encouraging anyone to not vote or to vote third party, and won’t. I do mention that such voters exist and that Biden must appeal to them if he wants to win, because I consider that to be the political reality. Like anything that centrists see as a threat to their slide rightward, that exact phrasing is immediately interpreted as ZOMG RUSSKIE! Demanding silence in the face of genocide is what the bad guys in the documentary do.
Netanyahu would love for Trump to be elected, as would Putin. It would be a greenlight for them to be even worse in their respective wars.
And Biden is doing exactly what all three despots want. Continuing supporting Netanyahu is losing Biden voters. As I keep saying and you lot keep ignoring, I’m voting for Biden. But I can’t and won’t ignore that his positions will cause him to lose if he persists.
Throwing this election over that issue makes absolutely no sense, though.
Then Biden should stop throwing this election over that issue.
You could just ask me, I guess. Am I belittling genocide opposition? No. What I am opposed to is blaming the entire thing on Biden, as if 95% of the rest of the political establishment isn’t involved and wouldn’t have done the same things or worse. “Genocide Joe” is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. People seem totally ready to throw this election to trump, who has made it clear he would be even worse about Palestine, over this single issue, which would fuck over the US in an almost incalculable way. And then, it sure is odd how people who consider themselves leftists or communists spend huge amounts of time and energy bashing Biden and Democrats and NEVER express any concerns about Republicans or Trump. It makes absolutely no sense given that Democratic administrations are much better on issues they claim to care about - clean energy, unions, environmental regulations, women’s rights, appointing reasonable people to courts, and so on.
Biden hasn’t been selling weapons he knows will be used for genocide for the past several decades.
The US just started supporting Israel with weapons and finances? Huh, I could have sworn that’s been going on for at least 50 years.
No. What I am opposed to is blaming the entire thing on Biden
I blame most of it on Netanyahu. Biden shoudl stop enabling him.
, as if 95% of the rest of the political establishment isn’t involved and wouldn’t have done the same things or worse.
“Everyone else would do it” is not a justification for Biden’s support for genocide.
“Genocide Joe” is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard.
And you haven’t heard it from me. I don’t call him that.
People seem totally ready to throw this election to trump,
And any criticism of Biden is support for Trump. Griping about Biden enabling genocide on a small fledgling platform inhabited almost entirely by centrists who just want his critics to shut up isn’t going to throw anything.
who has made it clear he would be even worse about Palestine, over this single issue, which would fuck over the US in an almost incalculable way.
Which is why I’m voting for Biden.
And then, it sure is odd how people who consider themselves leftists or communists spend huge amounts of time and energy bashing Biden and Democrats and NEVER express any concerns about Republicans or Trump.
What is there about every last centrist’s second choice that needs expressing. They’re fascists. It’s why we’re all stuck voting for Biden. Democrats seeing this and using it as license to be second worst is disgusting behavior.
This conspiracy nonsense from centrists that russians are hiding behind all dissent is just like Republicans screaming “SOROS!” at all sensory input. It’s not based in any actual logic. You should be fucking livid that Biden is enabling genocide, and I’m seeing precious little evidence that any of you are.
The US just started supporting Israel with weapons and finances? Huh, I could have sworn that’s been going on for at least 50 years.
Sounds like a justification for never, ever stopping. BuT nO OnE hErE sUpPoRtS gEnOcIdE.
So, you’ve intentionally or not missed the point that Biden does not make all the decisions for the US. He’s in a difficult position especially with Congress and Republicans overwhelmingly supporting Israel.
And you haven’t heard it from me. I don’t call him that.
That’s fine. I’m not only discussing you. I’m discussing “leftist bro” people who can’t stop talking shit about Biden constantly and don’t seem concerned at all about Republican plans for Trump and the country. If that’s you, then okay.
And any criticism of Biden is support for Trump.
Excessive, unfair and pointless criticism helps Trump, yes. Do Trump and Republicans deserve any crticism? Well, no way, I’ll just talk shit about Biden endlessly.
Griping about Biden enabling genocide on a small fledgling platform inhabited almost entirely by centrists who just want his critics to shut up isn’t going to throw anything.
So, it’s interesting how “so leftist bro” people come to places where people are likely to vote for Biden and try to erode his support. Guess who that would help?
You should be fucking livid that Biden is enabling genocide
How old are you? Israel has been doing this forever, with full US support. It’s been going on for decades before I was born. Were you livid when the French and British set up the whole thing in the 40s?
Sounds like a justification for never, ever stopping.
not in anyway whatsoever is that " justification for never, ever stopping". It’s pointing out that “OMG JOR BIDEN” is just a clueless thing to be fixating on. Again, as if Biden makes all the decisions for the entire country by himself. This was going on for decades before Biden was in power.
BuT nO OnE hErE sUpPoRtS gEnOcIdE.
That’s correct, nobody here support genocide. If you want to help Trump be in charge of Palestinian, Ukrainian, LGBT and central American genocides, keep it up.
That’s great that you know about concepts like Sunk Cost Fallacy, but not so great that you apply it to something which has absolutely nothing to do with that. Ok, see you in a Republican concentration camp soon! Nice work! You really stamped out GENERCIDE, good job. It was all Joe Biden all along.
It’s not belittling genocide opposition. It’s belittling those who hold democracy ransom over a single issue that they don’t understand, and weren’t even aware was happening for the last several decades.
Hypocritical when it’s you holding democracy ransom telling them who to vote for. I am expressing democracy by voting for Jill Stein.
You’re knowingly throwing away a vote. There’s not much left that is more anti-democracy. But for now- you can enjoy that right.
Projection, you’re literally voting for someone you don’t agree with, so you have a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy.
Who said i disagree with him? I dislike a very few things he’s doing, and disagree with how they’re handled. That’s it.
I’m an adult though. So I understand nuance. And I also know that compromise is how things get accomplished.
Go ahead and look through a history book and see how many times protest votes and not booting succeeded in actionable results.
I’ll wait here.
You claim to be against genocide several times on your account.
Your strategy has managed to move this country to the extreme right wing. Time to admit it doesn’t work and try something else.
Oh the irony, you’re the one with reading to do. I’m building a movement to improve the country and it starts with support. You would be proudly shouting down civil rights protestors back in the day.
So…. You didn’t check to see how many times doing nothing has brought change.
I’m still waiting.
You’re the one doing nothing, yes I went though history and checked, turns out not doing anything like you changes nothing. Your plan: vote dem and do nothing for 4 years. My plan: build a movement by supporting the Green party so we have an opposition forcing the Dems to give concessions.
Hilarious.
You’re going to…. “Build a movement.” Right. So, while you were checking on how much change was brought by doing nothing, did you come across the myriad people that “built movements?”
Because that shit pretty much started back in the 60’s. And it took them until 1984 to even start the Green Party. And they’re been “building movements” since.
So what exactly are you going to do differently than people more organized and smarter than you didn’t do over the past four decades?
The only way that could possibly effective is if it was paired with comprehensive voting reform in every state (well, every state that matters).
A third party cannot win with the current first-past-the-post system. It’s so obvious that I can’t imagine why it would need to be explained. Have a good leftist candidate, it’ll take votes from the liberal. Popular conservative alt candidate, will take votes from the Republican. With our current roughly 50/50 balance, either one could result in the candidate with less support for their ideology winning. That’s how you end up with something like (theoretically) 25% Stein, 35% Biden, 40% Trump, and Trump wins because he had the plurality. Great.
You’re voting third party in a First Past the Post election structure, so you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the specific incarnation of democracy you exist within.
Hilarious, you are so clueless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting Theres a list of countries on there for you to look at, they have several options for parties, and many come and go in popularity.
You simply choose to consent to a duopoly out of pure foolishness.
That doesn’t mean it works well in those countries. Plus, there are other differences to how their governments are structured.
What are you doing to get RCV? I’m voting for a candidate that supports it.
Voting in primaries for people who support it would help. In general elections, how will that help since they can’t get elected?
Poe?
It’s absolutely nothing but.
Yes, opposition to genocide is just because those who oppose it are unenlightened, not because it’s fucking genocide.
Biden hasn’t been selling weapons he knows will be used for genocide for the past several decades. Now do the thing where you sling gaslighting and abuse.
For someone who had nothing to say about Palestine before October 7th, you sure love talking down at others from that high horse.
Your comment is history is almost entirety anti Biden rhetoric, and snarky rebuttals. People have tried to reason with you. You seem to have no desire to debate in good faith at all, so you should understand that It raises questions as to your motive here.
You have not, and will not find a single person here who supports genocide. Not one. Nor will you find anyone that thinks Biden handling of Palestine to be acceptable in any way. So STOP accusing people of this nonsense.
It makes you look foolish.
What people have CONSTANTLY tried to explain to you- is that this situation is very complicated. It’s nuanced. It’s not so simple to demand that something you don’t like be stopped immediately.
Either make an attempt to debate in good faith or don’t debate.
Do you suppose that there might have been something that happened between then and now that might have made the genocide undeniable to all but a few bad faith actors?
I have been massively dissatisfied with his performance, with one notable exception: he exceeded my expectations on student loan forgiveness.
The accusations began the very first time I said that Biden should stop supporting genocide.
At the very least, genocide denial in the face of obvious genocide is support for genocide. Yes, I have encountered that right here on lemmy.
Seen that too. And not just from the deniers. Mostly it takes the form of “every president since the formation of Israel has been complicit, why start having a problem now?” Sometimes it’s “we can’t stop selling Netanyahu weapons because Republicans will call us antisemitic.” Both are defenses of Biden’s actions themselves, and not merely an admonition to vote for Biden on the grounds that Trump is undeniably worse.
Of course Trump is worse, and that’s why I’m voting for Biden. But as long as Biden supports genocide, I’m going to say he should stop doing that.
I’m not going to ask for patient incrementalism over the course of decades here.
I’m not really clear why. Biden has ran a competent administration and it’s been like night and day compared to the chaotic horror of the trump admin. Of course, Biden should absolutely be pressured to change policy on Israel. AIPAC is a very powerful force in US politics, however. This is likely to be a close election and talking endless shit about Biden and encouraging people from voting or encouraging them to vote 3rd party absolutely is a gift to Trump. Netanyahu would love for Trump to be elected, as would Putin. It would be a greenlight for them to be even worse in their respective wars. Denigrating Biden and eroding his support will not solve anything for Palestine, and will totally screw Ukraine and Americans.
Quite obviously, I oppose genocide, and the Palestinians have deserved much better for years. Throwing this election over that issue makes absolutely no sense, though.
Democrats in general should be pressured to be better on a host of issues. Complaints are seen as evidence of a vast international conspiracy to install Trump.
I’m not encouraging anyone to not vote or to vote third party, and won’t. I do mention that such voters exist and that Biden must appeal to them if he wants to win, because I consider that to be the political reality. Like anything that centrists see as a threat to their slide rightward, that exact phrasing is immediately interpreted as ZOMG RUSSKIE! Demanding silence in the face of genocide is what the bad guys in the documentary do.
And Biden is doing exactly what all three despots want. Continuing supporting Netanyahu is losing Biden voters. As I keep saying and you lot keep ignoring, I’m voting for Biden. But I can’t and won’t ignore that his positions will cause him to lose if he persists.
Then Biden should stop throwing this election over that issue.
Okay buddy.
You could just ask me, I guess. Am I belittling genocide opposition? No. What I am opposed to is blaming the entire thing on Biden, as if 95% of the rest of the political establishment isn’t involved and wouldn’t have done the same things or worse. “Genocide Joe” is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. People seem totally ready to throw this election to trump, who has made it clear he would be even worse about Palestine, over this single issue, which would fuck over the US in an almost incalculable way. And then, it sure is odd how people who consider themselves leftists or communists spend huge amounts of time and energy bashing Biden and Democrats and NEVER express any concerns about Republicans or Trump. It makes absolutely no sense given that Democratic administrations are much better on issues they claim to care about - clean energy, unions, environmental regulations, women’s rights, appointing reasonable people to courts, and so on.
The US just started supporting Israel with weapons and finances? Huh, I could have sworn that’s been going on for at least 50 years.
They want to be able to smugly say “we told you to listen to us!” While they deny that they’re trying to hold democrat ransom.
I blame most of it on Netanyahu. Biden shoudl stop enabling him.
“Everyone else would do it” is not a justification for Biden’s support for genocide.
And you haven’t heard it from me. I don’t call him that.
And any criticism of Biden is support for Trump. Griping about Biden enabling genocide on a small fledgling platform inhabited almost entirely by centrists who just want his critics to shut up isn’t going to throw anything.
Which is why I’m voting for Biden.
What is there about every last centrist’s second choice that needs expressing. They’re fascists. It’s why we’re all stuck voting for Biden. Democrats seeing this and using it as license to be second worst is disgusting behavior.
This conspiracy nonsense from centrists that russians are hiding behind all dissent is just like Republicans screaming “SOROS!” at all sensory input. It’s not based in any actual logic. You should be fucking livid that Biden is enabling genocide, and I’m seeing precious little evidence that any of you are.
Sounds like a justification for never, ever stopping. BuT nO OnE hErE sUpPoRtS gEnOcIdE.
So, you’ve intentionally or not missed the point that Biden does not make all the decisions for the US. He’s in a difficult position especially with Congress and Republicans overwhelmingly supporting Israel.
That’s fine. I’m not only discussing you. I’m discussing “leftist bro” people who can’t stop talking shit about Biden constantly and don’t seem concerned at all about Republican plans for Trump and the country. If that’s you, then okay.
Excessive, unfair and pointless criticism helps Trump, yes. Do Trump and Republicans deserve any crticism? Well, no way, I’ll just talk shit about Biden endlessly.
So, it’s interesting how “so leftist bro” people come to places where people are likely to vote for Biden and try to erode his support. Guess who that would help?
How old are you? Israel has been doing this forever, with full US support. It’s been going on for decades before I was born. Were you livid when the French and British set up the whole thing in the 40s?
not in anyway whatsoever is that " justification for never, ever stopping". It’s pointing out that “OMG JOR BIDEN” is just a clueless thing to be fixating on. Again, as if Biden makes all the decisions for the entire country by himself. This was going on for decades before Biden was in power.
That’s correct, nobody here support genocide. If you want to help Trump be in charge of Palestinian, Ukrainian, LGBT and central American genocides, keep it up.
So, when do we stop? Has it ever even occurred to you that stopping is possible?
That would be great, i agree we should! But blaming it all on Biden and discouraging people from voting for him is not going to achieve that.
But we’ve been doing it for so long, it must be right!
The sunk cost fallacy is a garbage justification for continuing support for genocide. But there’s no good reason so you have to use garbage excuses.
That’s great that you know about concepts like Sunk Cost Fallacy, but not so great that you apply it to something which has absolutely nothing to do with that. Ok, see you in a Republican concentration camp soon! Nice work! You really stamped out GENERCIDE, good job. It was all Joe Biden all along.