I hear all this talk about women’s safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a rise in male loneliness and the expectation to be the one to take an active role in interaction especially those that are romantic in nature. How are we supposed to take the lead and approach while keeping women safe at the same time when approaching her could make her feel uncomfortable, even in safe environments such as social groups, bars & clubs, workplaces, etc?
I found a couple of videos which explains why men are out here street harassing women. The link to this video there’s a section called “bottom line”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZiaTDxJ-rQ
The guy here basically goes on to explain that a woman is not gonna make a move on him, that he needs to show her he’s the man and have a wolf mentality. Obviously, the way he worded this is just wrong but this is the mentality I see from men who are trying to be the take charge types. I don’t think this kind of thinking comes from nowhere. Men already deal with the expectation to approach and make the first move. If you put that much pressure on men, it’s gonna make them wanna find communities that will tell them how to do exactly that. Guess where they turn to? The redpill/PUA. These are the communities that teach them the alpha-beta nonsense, how they got ideas that “a woman loves a confident masculine man, show her that by letting her feel your strong presence” and they learn messed up tips and tactics to do exactly that, which then leads to men making women feel uncomfortable.
For anyone that watches the 12 hour video of a woman walking down the street, within those hours, a lot of men came out to talk to her. I don’t think these men would be doing that if they didn’t face any expectations to be the pursuers in courtship. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A&ab_channel=RobBliss
Over 90% of women don’t initiate interactions with men first & often expect them to do it, and I think this is a huge problem that’s contributing to both men & women’s issues. Safety is a big issue for women on the daily and I think male expectations in dating are a big factor for that. The expectations for men to do something first will make women not take an active role, resulting in most men feeling undesired (& also lonely tho male loneliness is a multi-faceted issue), and when they decide to do something about it, they turn to communities that will teach them strategies beyond the mainstream to give them that success, which then turns into having a lot of men out there street harassing women. It doesn’t just have to be street harassment. This can also happen in social groups, friend groups, bars and harassment can very much happen there.
So the first step here is for society to stop expecting men to make the first move and not just that. Stop expecting them to read signs (especially signs women gives as an invitation as her “first move” as they’re subtle, not obvious), stop expecting men to start flirting, and stop expecting men to be the first ones to initiate conversations about sex. We should start telling women to be more active (and obviously active) and do some of these things to take the pressure off of men.
This doesn’t mean that dating should completely fall into the woman’s hands. What I am saying ultimately is to not have expectations of any gender to bear the heavy burden of doing everything. Once we get rid of those expectations, then we can start implementing some gender neutral courtship rules that allows men and women to take active agency without much pressure. But I don’t believe we as a society (given our current practices) should partake in active agency with dating until we’ve gotten rid of those expectations.
Taking the expectations off isn’t going to stop SOME men from being psychos, there’s always going to be bad apples in society that makes things uncomfortable for everybody. But I don’t believe women are getting approached only by these types. Chances are, they’re getting approached by men who are dealing with societal expectations of being a man (this doesn’t mean u should entertain him. If he makes you feel unsafe just do what u have to do to gtfo there. Just cuz men have the expectation doesn’t mean u throw away your need to feel safe. If no man is allowed to approach on the streets, then any man, even if he is decent and friendly in their approach, should be doing that as that is street harassment and would make you feel uncomfortable.). How is it that the average man can go a day without having a woman or another man bother him, but women can’t go a whole day without having any man try his shot with her? This all goes back to the expectations we have of men.
We should not be doing any active courting in dating nor give out any dating advice until we have reached a point where society doesn’t expect men to be the initiators all the time. That means adults telling boys that they don’t need to take up that role and that it’s okay for women to make the first move. That means women telling their female friends to not expect guys to make the first move and do the heavy lifting, especially in the beginning stages.
We have already been told not to assume that a woman wants us to approach just because she’s dressed a certain way. We have already been told that we shouldn’t be out here bothering anyone on the streets. We have already been told that if we get told “no” or get a “no” signal, we accept it and move on. Absolutely fine with that. But we cannot have these rules and then conform men to the expectations of being the pursuer all the damn time and not expect that most of these interactions will turn into street harassment, especially when these men turn into martyrs when they do go to TRP/PUA communities that will tell them practical yet messed up tips that just end up making women feel unsafe. This is just backwards and will only ensure that this toxic cycle continues.
No, just no. This is a typical “forever alone” take, and the proposed solutions are unrealistic at best. Not gonna happen.
How are we supposed to take the lead and approach while keeping women safe at the same time when approaching her could make her feel uncomfortable
By being gentlemen about it. Be confident in our approach, but be respectful when turned down.
And understand that many women react the way they do because of a series of negative experiences they’ve had. It’s tragic that bad men ruin it for the good ones. But that shouldn’t mean the good ones should give up.
Men already deal with the expectation to approach and make the first move. If you put that much pressure on men, it’s gonna make them wanna find communities that will tell them how to do exactly that. Guess where they turn to? The redpill/PUA.
Because there are so few places that teach positive and respectful ways of dating. I really think this is an issue primarily of education (by other men and by male communities, as well as parents). Most boys are left to their own devices when it comes to this, which means peer groups, social media, and Hollywood. Is it any wonder they don’t learn healthy behaviors?
TRP and PUA at least offer solutions that work to some extent, unhealthy as they may be. Where are the healthy alternatives?
So the first step here is for society to stop expecting men to make the first move and not just that. Stop expecting them to read signs (especially signs women gives as an invitation as her “first move” as they’re subtle, not obvious), stop expecting men to start flirting, and stop expecting men to be the first ones to initiate conversations about sex.
Not gonna work. This is too deeply ingrained in our nature, which evolved over millions of years. Sperm is cheap, and pregnancy is still a heavy burden. Most women are always going to be more careful about selecting who to have sex and relationships with. Take it as a fact of nature.
I’m not saying it can’t change, but don’t build your dating strategy on expecting it to change. That’s how guys end up forever alone.
I don’t believe we as a society (given our current practices) should partake in active agency with dating until we’ve gotten rid of those expectations.
and
We should not be doing any active courting in dating nor give out any dating advice until we have reached a point where society doesn’t expect men to be the initiators all the time.
Then enjoy being forever alone. Most men are going to pass on that, because it is unnatural, and the urge to have sex and to be in a relationship is simply too strong.
Your proposed plan of action is entirely unrealistic, and I would say even damaging to boys and young men seeking healthy dating strategies that work.
Yes, it’s a quagmire navigating all the conflicting advice, which is why I say that more experienced men showing others the way is so important.
By being gentlemen about it. Be confident in our approach, but be respectful when turned down.
And understand that many women react the way they do because of a series of negative experiences they’ve had. It’s tragic that bad men ruin it for the good ones. But that shouldn’t mean the good ones should give up.
I’m all for being able to accept a ‘no’ and moving on but as I mentioned in my comments, most women aren’t gonna outright say no and instead find socially acceptable ways to exit a conversation. Many guys aren’t aware of what’s really going on here and just end up confused. In the worst case scenario, they’ll continue trying to talk to her cuz they felt they didn’t ‘try enough’ or in the best case scenario, they just leave things alone and go back to doing their own thing.
Because there are so few places that teach positive and respectful ways of dating. I really think this is an issue primarily of education (by other men and by male communities, as well as parents). Most boys are left to their own devices when it comes to this, which means peer groups, social media, and Hollywood. Is it any wonder they don’t learn healthy behaviours?
I agree with that as well but one question. Do you agree that women can and are able to make the first move? Cuz my position is I think they do, but many of them won’t make that first move and often times expect men to do it. So even with places to teach positive and respectful ways of dating, that pressure for men is still going to be there and I don’t think the side effects of it are going to be pretty. Cuz if they’re the ones who are still expected to approach, they’re inevitably gonna make women feel more uncomfortable even if they mean well. But we already got there in the first place because of what I’ve described. This was mainly the reason why I suggested getting rid of these expectations first. I can go on and explain in detail exactly what men should do to approach a woman, start a conversation with her, read the signs and move on. But it’s not easy taking that much emotional toll from this many rejections (which if it builds up can lead to a point where they lash out at another rejection.), it’s also not easy for men to gauge weather they are successful or not which can result in them reading situations wrong, coming off a more aggressive than intended, or even into searching for methods to achieve said results (even if done from immoral means). If men don’t feel expected to live up to these standards, then they can follow these healthy dating advice without feeling those same pressures I was talking about, which could mean women won’t have to put up with much aggressive creepy behaviour they see from men like they currently do now.
Many men are lost when it came to mainstream dating advice as it doesn’t deliver results. The only dating advice that’s delivering results now are advice that tie our self worth into arbitrary values i.e if you are a man and can make a lot of women have sex with you, then you’re valuable. If you’re a woman and you can withhold sex for 3 months and make him fall in love with you before the sex, then you’re valuable. Adversarial dynamics.
On a side note, I actually do know some healthy yet practical dating sources that I’ve learned from so they are out there, but TRP/PUA/FDS material are in heavy abundance and not much channels that discuss the nuances in dating. But they’re not gonna do much as long as men feel they have to bear the burden of doing the heavy lifting initially all the time.
I’m not saying it can’t change, but don’t build your dating strategy on expecting it to change. That’s how guys end up forever alone.
I’m not talking about dating strategies here, I’m talking about expectations. I’m all for men to make the first move, to initiate flirting, and even to escalate to sex. Having the skill to do that is very valuable, but the expectations men face to even live up to that are gonna lead to some unfavourable outcomes for both men and women. In terms of meeting women, it can make men to be aggressive in getting a number just to build options, and will often try tricks to ensure a woman has sex with them in a somewhat manipulative kind of way. It makes it physically and emotionally unsafe for everybody involved. It wouldn’t even matter if there are healthy alternatives out there if they’re still expected to do the heavy lifting initially.
And healthy dating advice that’s currently out there are geared towards masculine men and feminine women, leaving the more feminine men in the dust as being in a position to lead for these types of men is exhausting, speaking from experience myself, and finding women who are okay with being in that leading position is very rare.
I had to make another post on this due to character limit, but yea I personally think it’s too risky putting out healthy dating advice for men as if we’re still expecting them to do the heavy lifting, women are still gonna have to put up with us approaching them even at times when they don’t want us to, which means we could indirectly be encouraging harassment in these cases. And considering dating has a of factors, it’s quite risky to do that if men feel like they gotta make something happen or if they don’t and relax a little, then nothing will happen. And if they mess up on it, the woman ends up being very uncomfortable or he may say or do something the wrong way that really messes up the interaction.
Let’s say a woman decides to make the first move on a man given the current practices we have established. Because the average man doesn’t get that much attention, he’s gonna latch onto any positive affection given to him, making him clingly and needy which can make it unsafe for her. If the man is secure enough to handle a direct approach from her, fine, but many men feel lonely so they’re not emotionally developed to handle that (which again I link this back to male expectations.).
Me personally, I don’t think we can have a conversation about healthy practical dating advice if we’re still encouraging practices that potentially put women in a position where she constantly has to deal with men approaching her which is where most harassment cases comes from and why they feel perpetually unsafe.
This is primarily the reason why I suggested we should get rid of expectations for men first. You get rid of the expectations, they don’t feel pressured, which means some of the lengths they would go to they won’t need to go that far anymore as they feel they get enough attention & validation, enough feeling of being desired, so they can take it easy. This shouldn’t stop them from taking their shot, if they see someone they find attractive they should shoot their shot if they want something to happen, they just won’t feel that intense pressure to be doing so all the time.
So, I disagree totally. I’m a woman.
Firstly the act of a man approaching me, even with the motive being a date, isn’t inherently an issue. If a guy approaches me, while I’m waiting for a coffee, chats me up a little, and then slips in an ask for a date, it’s awkward at worst, hell, maybe I’m interested too. No harm, no foul. It’s becomes creepy/scary when the guy doesn’t take no for an answer, or becomes aggressive when you say no.
Also, the whole know your audience thing comes into play too. If I’m in a bar, or waiting in line, or idk any number of other things it’s one thing. But if I’m clearly in a hurry, or in the middle of doing something like loading my car full of groceries. Not now. Seriously.
One of the biggest reasons “men are scary” is that I KNOW how much stronger a man is, than I am. I’d put up a hell of a fight, if it ever came down to it, but I won’t win on power or speed (and I’m a runner). Then add in the experiences we all have, with creepy dudes, at best, and downright belonging in jail dudes at worst.
Not every man is bad, and we all know that academically. The issue is you never know what you’re going to get, so you go into every situation cautiously. I am in NO way calling men dogs, it’s simply a metaphor everyone knows. If you’ve been bit by a dog, even if it’s a chihuahua, won’t you be extra cautious around ALL dogs after that?
It’s becomes creepy/scary when the guy doesn’t take no for an answer, or becomes aggressive when you say no.
Most women won’t be saying no and for good reason. They will just try to excuse themselves out of the interaction, or give out a fake number to temporarily satisfy him until they get away from the situation or anything along those lines. Very rarely they’ll say no because dudes will then overreact to being rejected and sometimes act violent (no doubt this comes from the ideas implanted in their heads by TRP/PUA). Many guys, when women exit the convo without actually saying ‘no’, end up confused what happened in those interactions. They don’t know if they should’ve asked for a number or not, or if doing so would make women feel uncomfortable as maybe she thought it was just a harmless conversation as they’re trying to be careful not to make anything sound sexual at the beginning. But the guys who do, they already reached a point where they don’t care about what she thinks.
Also, why couldn’t you start a conversation with a guy you find attractive in those exact same situations?
Also, the whole know your audience thing comes into play too. If I’m in a bar, or waiting in line, or idk any number of other things it’s one thing. But if I’m clearly in a hurry, or in the middle of doing something like loading my car full of groceries. Not now. Seriously.
This one I agree with but you can still feel unsafe in a bar or waiting in line if you don’t particularly want to talk to a guy. Obviously if you’re in a hurry and have your hands full with heavy bags then that’s a no. It still doesn’t change my point though.
One of the biggest reasons “men are scary” is that I KNOW how much stronger a man is, than I am. I’d put up a hell of a fight, if it ever came down to it, but I won’t win on power or speed (and I’m a runner). Then add in the experiences we all have, with creepy dudes, at best, and downright belonging in jail dudes at worst.
Then what’s the point of having courtship rules if it means being in a situation with a man that’s much stronger than you if he decides to become aggressive at some point? Couldn’t you make the first move while having escape options? I know women plan escape routes before going on dates with men, could you not do the same here? For dudes that belong in jail, most men are not gonna be like this. The experiences you have with creepy men I guarantee comes with their facing these exact expectations I was talking about earlier. I genuinely don’t think most men would feel the need to do this if we actively told society not to make them conform to those expectations.
I’m on my cell, so it won’t let me copy anything.
Why not start a conversation with a guy I find attractive? I’m married so I can only speak for myself in the past, but I did. It’s how I met my husband, in fact. Personally I have no problem doing so, and have done so many times in the past.
As for why women might give an excuse, I can say for myself, because the guy was giving off the vibe that it was going to go sideways if I flat out said no thank you. But I have flat out said no thank you, I’m not interested. That goes one of two ways. An ok and he walks away, or more commonly, some variation of “ fuck you bitch, who do you think you are?”
As for feeling unsafe in a bar or in line, sure. I can, but I’m typically in a public place, with other people around, and the likelihood being lower that guy will do something. From personal experience, it doesn’t stop every guy, but it lowers the risk.
Courtship rules only apply if ALL parties act in good faith, not just the ones at that particular date together.
As I said, I had no problem pursuing, and point blankly saying what I want and don’t want. But there are instances where, for my own safety, I have to “sugarcoat” my actions/answers.
Again, I can only speak from personal experience, but old men started commenting on my body, or touching me, or implying the things they wanted to do to me when I was like 10 or 11. It never got better. It still happens, but I was catcalled FAR more when I was like 16 than now, many years later.
Unfortunately, almost all women have more than a few stories about creepy aggressive guys. I’m confident that has nothing to do with societies expecting for men to be the perused and all about me me me me. I want, so I should have. Not all men are this way, but there are enough.
Okay, so you’re a more assertive woman then. It’s not common I meet a woman like this. The majority of the women I’ve met and spoken to don’t start conversations first, and many guys I know share that same story too. I think it’s once in a while we’ll meet someone who will outright tell us no but most of the women we try shooting our shot with won’t be like that and you already know the reason why.
Also I didn’t ask why they give an excuse so not sure why you brought that up.
Wouldn’t the public space thing apply in the street as well, esp in well-populated areas on the street and not alleyways where there’s no one around? Or maybe it depends which part of the street you’re on.
As for the good faith thing, people are already mistrustful of men right from the get-go, so we’re assumed to have bad intentions until we prove that we don’t. This post covers that topic. https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQRpqUtbDz/?img_index=1 but yea it def makes it harder for us.
How many men did you have hitting on you when you were 10 or 11? Cuz that guy sounded like a real pedo. 16 I can understand, I had instances where I entered into conversations with women and then I found out they were under 18 which made me wanna exit the convo and end it on a non-awkward note quickly.
Also, why does the creepy aggressive guys have to be about male entitlement? I don’t think most guys actually feel entitled to your time, but maybe it feels like that as that’s mostly the kind of guy you’re exposed to in that situation, whereas most non-entitled guys don’t even try (or they did but have a lot of nerves in them that they end up saying the wrong things?). I think you’re downplaying the effect these expectations have on men. A lot of dating advice for men is geared towards them being the pursuer and leading the interaction. In some instances, they’re being encouraged to shoot their shot with a woman on the street (which has the potential to turn into street harassment if not handled properly.). Men are told repeatedly they have to play a numbers game, that they’re inevitably are gonna make a woman feel uncomfortable (and unsafe) as we can’t control how she would feel in those situations. Mainstream advice isn’t giving men the proper tools they need to meet expectations, which is the huge reason they turn to the redpill. I’ll share this video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVdu74BYTwQ&ab_channel=AbaNPreach
So rather than just slapping ‘male entitlement’ onto this issue, I think it’s worth considering why men are going to these lengths in the first place. Media has been encouraging mainstream dating advice such as be yourself, work on yourself, the right person will find you, just be friends, etc. It didn’t stop men from going to the redpill and living with the problems we currently have right now as they feel they’ve been doing that their whole life and nothing really happens here.
A street is different because usually, you’re doing something, or moving somewhere when you’re walking on the street (see my “read the room” statement earlier). It’s about the approach too. If you’ve paced me for like 5 blocks, already me feel uncomfortable, and then catch up to me and start trying to immediately get my number, it comes off as aggressive and not cool. Why use this example? It’s happened more than once’s.
Regardless of instagram statistics, 1 in 6 women has been the victim of rape, or attempted rape. And 9 out of 10 rape victims are women. Think about 6 women you know, at least one have been a victim already. There’s a reason women are distrustful of men. See my dog metaphor earlier.
I didn’t say hitting on. Like they weren’t asking me out, but they were DEFINITELY gross and some DEFINITELY belonged in jail. It wasn’t a one time thing. It happened a lot. Partly different time (I’m older than standard here). Partly there wasn’t anyone to tell dudes to fuck off back then (“you minded your own business back then” is a total bullshit cop out but it was kinda true). Possible some cultural things at play, but I don’t think much has really changed. Like I said it STARTED when I was about 10 or 11 and never stopped/got better. As a teen it was infinitely worse. According to RAINN: A majority of child victims are 12-17. Of victims under the age of 18: 34% of victims of sexual assault and rape are under age 12, and 66% of victims of sexual assault and rape are age 12-17. That pretty much backs up what my experience was.
As explained above, if it was 100% “dating culture” that caused women to be afraid of men, then why are men aggressively perusing/catcalling/raping/grooming/etc children they aren’t supposed to date? What else would creepy entitled guys motive be? I honestly, can’t think of another logical conclusion. He’s just an asshole? Yeah sure, but they aren’t mutually exclusive.
I have had enough experience where guys DO think they are entitled to your time, or to date you, or that you ARE their possession (see stats on domestic violence) so I can only draw conclusions from personal experience.
Let’s also not forget that that 1 in 4 women have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner. Again, think about those 6 women from earlier. At least 2 of them have been the victim of domestic violence.
Again, it has NOTHING to do with modern dating culture. As I said I’m older, and ALL of these things existed LONG before the internet.
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but some of your stats are just propaganda. For example:
And 9 out of 10 rape victims are women.
This is absolutely false. Mary P. Koss doctored the stats, because she does not believe that women can rape men, or that that would be serious. But if you take forced penetration into account, then suddenly it is roughly 50-50 and no longer a gendered crime.
That may be true. I don’t know enough to say for sure or not. I googled stats and multiple places said the same thing, so I assumed it true. My mistake if not.
See for example https://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/
I can see that. Even in bars, for example, if you’re just out to grab dinner and go about your business, even you wouldn’t want someone coming up to you and talking to you. I guess technically speaking, even street approaches aren’t bad if you approach it properly. I’ve had a few instances where I’ve had great conversations with women on the street, I wouldn’t recommend it though so maybe I just got lucky.
Those statistics from RAINN are a compilation of multiple NCVS studies consisting 9 years of data (it had years 2005-2014 listed there), whereas if you look at the NCVS (the study RAINN sources), it does list out statistics of incidents from both reported and unreported incidents, sure, but it also provides more information to look at. The total population in the US (as well as the total population of males and females) are listed there. The number of incidents that happened are a lot lower when you compare that to the general population, so the stats you’re displaying right now are stats out of those incidents, not of the general population which was the point insta-stats were trying to make. Crime in general is very hard to measure as you have to look at multiple factors. However, most stats comes from what the victim reports, but many of these incidents could be done by the same perpetrator (or repeat offenders if you will).
On RAINN, it states that 433,648 Americans 12 years or older were sexually assaulted or rape per year. Now of course there are margin of error for these numbers since crime is very hard to measure but let’s go with that number. The total population reported on the NCVS in 2021 are 279,188,570. If we do the math, then 433,648 / 279,188,570 (could be higher or lower as of this year) = 0.16% per year. It’s likely the numbers presented on RAINN are coming from this 0.16%. The number of incidents that happened annually are roughly 4M (when these account for both men and women). Even in the FBI stats (another source RAINN looks at), the number of offenders are actually small compared to the number of victims on those incidents which would imply repeat offenders.
And both NCVS and NISVS shows that domestic violence, even severe, are 50/50 so this isn’t a gendered issue.
Perusing and catcalling when done towards adults I’d say do come from male expectations, not when it’s directed towards children (tho there have been times where girls who are the ages of 14-17 look like adults so confusion can come from there, it doesn’t excuse the crimes tho) Even raping depending on how it’s done could be due to male expectations. PUA/TRP do teach men many ways to get sex from women, even if it’s through manipulation. And many of them have tips on how men can be “dominant” which I wouldn’t be surprised if it does lead into rape.
if it was 100% “dating culture” that caused women to be afraid of men, then why are men aggressively perusing/catcalling/raping/grooming/etc children they aren’t supposed to date?
Maybe they reached a point where they’re tired of putting themselves out there and went off the deep end from there. Notorious incels such as Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian were both involved in PUA spaces before eventually reaching a point where they’re out there killing people. And these are the extreme cases, most incels are not gonna reach this level. So I wouldn’t be surprised if these men started off trying to go for grown women but then later on decided to target children instead for some power trip. I’m not saying this is a good thing and I think if you’re intentionally going after children then this goes beyond male expectations and more of a mental issue with these men.
So all these numbers on RAINN are coming from that 0.16% victims per year, but the reality of women is that they have to deal with men coming onto them based on the 2 videos I shared? I’m not saying that dating culture (or male expectations) are 100% the culprit, but I think those situations specifically are due to male expectations society has on men. This doesn’t just include men who are out there targeting children (which becomes a completely different issue once they start going for children), but men as a whole.
Women’s dating coach Matthew Hussey actually has a chart explaining this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ONWHXCsrk&ab_channel=BrandonJohnson. A small minority of men are out here doing creepy shit, the rest of the men do approach women but oftentimes wait for the right moment. But it doesn’t change the fact we still expect men to do the heavy lifting initially.
Yeah this is a mature and nuanced take. Overall our society’s gender expectations are just unnecessary at best, and dangerously toxic at worst.
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To change the ones placed on men, you’d have to change the people placing those expectations, which is women
They aren’t the only ones placing those expectations. I can count the handful of male content creators that are out there giving men advice on how to do this. One can argue that it could be due to primarily women expecting that from men sure, but men and women have been expecting men to take an active role in courtship for a very long time now.
There is no way to guarantee a woman won’t feel uncomfortable, when she is approached.
women’s safety when out on the streets
I never approach women on the streets. That’s weird!
How are we supposed to take the lead and approach while keeping women safe at the same time when approaching her could make her feel uncomfortable, even in safe environments such as social groups, bars & clubs, workplaces, etc?
It’s not hard to make women feel safe. It’s not rocket science.
main issues men have is a rise in male loneliness
I made a post at leftwingmaleadvocates about depression being the cause of male loneliness. Men’s mental health is ignored. It’s unpopular to say incels should take responsibility for their mental health and dating life.
The redpill/PUA.
I think most PUAs are actually “blue pilled”, not “red pilled.” I don’t think redpill is as toxic as people say. It is based on data and it hasn’t been debunked. Data is reality.
These are the communities that teach them the alpha-beta nonsense
I don’t label myself as an alpha or beta. I don’t label other men either. However, I think there is some truth to them. Alpha doesn’t mean superior and beta doesn’t mean inferior. People can choose how they feel about those words.
So the first step here is for society to stop expecting men to make the first move and not just that.
I’m a shy guy, and I prefer to approach women. I wouldn’t want women to approach me most of the time. I think it’s in men’s nature to be the pursuer.
It’s not hard to make women feel safe. It’s not rocket science.
It’s also not mens responsibility to make women feel safe.
Just like women aren’t responsible for making men feel safe no matter what baggage that man has with women.
Saying men should exert any effort whatsoever towards women’s safety is like saying women are should be making up for every negative thing a woman did in a man’s life when she meets him.
It’s wrong and unreasonable in both cases, and we shouldn’t cater to the sexist idea that men should be doing things for women that women absolutely won’t and don’t do en mass for men
I agree.
How about making humans around you feel safe?
How about not expecting other people to handle your emotions for you, and do it yourself like a grown up?
Also how about we hold women to that standard as well.
Why do you assume I would think women should be held to a different standard?
Also, it’s not clear to me what you gain from people feeling unsafe around you? Except you maybe live in a sketchy area. Isn’t it just nice when everyone feels safe?
Why do you assume I would think women should be held to a different standard?
Mostly the part where i don’t see you in women’s forums telling them to make themselves responsible for the irrational fears/emotions of men in their lives.
Instead you are here, lecturing men about it, despite men being more at risk walking alone at night than any other demographic.
Also, it’s not clear to me what you gain from people feeling unsafe around you? Except you maybe live in a sketchy area. Isn’t it just nice when everyone feels safe?
I’m not sure what you’d gain from not immediately emptying your wallet and giving me all your money. There is risk involved in not, you don’t know what the asker might do, so why not just do the effort others want you to do?
And no one is bending over backwards to make men feel safe, we’re expected to make ourselves feel safe. The double standard is very much the problem, and i’m not going to exert effort on another’s behalf until they are exerting effort on mine. Been burned quite a few too many times by people playing the “oh well if you don’t do it first, it will never happen!” card while never intending to reciprocate and wanting the lopsided situation to be the status quo.
Women actually do quite a lot of emotional work in relationships, so no idea what you are talking about.
So you feel unsafe around women? That is an interesting one, never happened to me - but people are different.
are you suggesting i’m in a relationship with all the random women (and/or people) you’re expecting me to do emotional labor on their behalf of? No?
So how is that point relevant at all? (hint: It’s not, you know it’s not, this is whataboutism trying to change the field of the discussion to a place where you feel you can ‘defend’ better, and it’s really annoying to watch and extremely obvious)
And the point isn’t feeling unsafe, the point is the double standard of women expecting men they don’t know and do not intend to know to mind read and handle any possible negative emotion of any woman at any time, which is a far different standard than what you just tried to come back with.
I never approach women on the streets. That’s weird!
That’s cool dude, the guys are encouraged to do that tho
I don’t think redpill is as toxic as people say. It is based on data and it hasn’t been debunked. Data is reality.
What makes you say it’s not as toxic as people say? There are definitely truths to some of the redpill, I just don’t agree with how they approach dating as well.
What makes you say it’s not as toxic as people say?
I watch Rollo Tomassi’s videos. I haven’t read his books. He probably talks more about it in his books. Basically, red pill is about hypergamy. Hypergamy doesn’t mean all women have unrealistic standards. There are lots of average men in relationships too.
From what I remember, hypergamy is the concept of dating up in a way. That’s fine, I did read Rollo Tomassi’s book but that was a very long time ago. But it wasn’t just him. I remember I used to watch small time redpill channels before fresh n fit or andrew tate came into the scene. Because of the hypergamy concept, many redpill have taught men to always maintain frame and power and to manipulate a woman to get sex. I even remember there was a book that had a chapter on how to cheat on a woman. That shit was messed up. Redpills also teach men that women love it when a man is dominant, that these are the lies they tell, these are the games she plays or if she chooses not to have sex with you, it means she sees you as beta or low value. This is where I take problem with the redpill. Everything else such as women wanting looks money status are okay given that we also understand we don’t take this idea to the extreme.
maintain frame and power and to manipulate a woman to get sex
It depends on who you follow within the redpill community. Some people are toxic. I follow a dating coach named Alan Roger Currie. His approach was about being straightforward and honest with women. He had he beef with Rollo Tomassi and didn’t think Rollo was truly “red-pilled.” He believed in the alpha/beta stuff, but otherwise his philosophy is pretty good.
fresh n fit or andrew tate
I don’t follow either of those.
Redpills also teach men that women love it when a man is dominant, that these are the lies they tell, these are the games she plays or if she chooses not to have sex with you, it means she sees you as beta or low value.
I think there’s a difference between being dominant and being an asshole. It’s possible to have an egalitarian relationship once the relationship is more established.
We had this convo before on reddit. I read ARC a long time ago and he’s one of the more straight forward examples which I do like. Even Rollo Tomassi had some good ideas but there were definitely things in there that didn’t sit right with me. But from a lot of the redpill material I’ve read it’s always some variation of “women don’t love you” “you need to keep the masculine frame at all times” “you need to let her know you have options, tell her about other girls coming onto you” “you need to make them scared of losing you”. I didn’t know he had beef with Rollo though.
As for the whole dominant thing, the only thing where being a dominant could be a good thing is if it’s discussed in kink communities (where they discuss important boundaries and safe words to ensure a safe play) or you follow healthy masculine examples. But a lot of redpillers ideas of masculinity is not based on kink or honest communication, a lot of communications are assumptions via nonverbals, and a lot of mental guessing since you’re utilizing tactics to “display” value or show her you’re high value or some shit like that.
We had this convo before on reddit.
Oh, I remember now! LOL
But from a lot of the redpill material I’ve read it’s always some variation of “women don’t love you” “you need to keep the masculine frame at all times” “you need to let her know you have options, tell her about other girls coming onto you” “you need to make them scared of losing you”.
Yeah, that can make men anxious. It is toxic. Maintaining frame was something Mystery talked about too. That was before the redpill became popular online.
being a dominant could be a good thing
In my opinion, being dominant is about initiating conversations with women. I think a man can be good and be dominant too.
Human hierarchy, since we are social animals, is much more complex than alpha/betta bro-science. And there are enough men who don’t mind be approached by wome - to just blankly state that men ate pursuer by nature.
Yes, there are men who don’t mind being approached.
If the roles were reversed, men would be rejecting women. Sometimes women ask men out too and get rejected.
It’s not about approaching women it’s about how. And it’s actually not exclusive to women, but just treating other humans as humans.
What? No. Women don’t feel safe around men because many men, when interacting with women, are fucking creeps.
Let me give you an example.
This guy I would drive occasionally, probably 12 years older than me, reeks of too much cologne, and has zero interest in how anyone else feels about anything other than himself. He’d repeatedly ask me to come hang out with him while I was on shift, saying he’d hire me for an hour or whatever. I told him I wasn’t interested, and yet every time this manchild got into my cab, he felt the need to ask me again. Every time I said no, it seemed to annoy him.
Eventually he said something like ‘I’m not a bad guy you know, all the other drivers come hang out with me’ and I had to put my foot down and tell him I have zero interest in ever hanging out with him, talking to him outside work, or spending a single minute of extra time with him out of the cab. I don’t want to. No.
He was insulted, but finally got the message. He’s either become homeless since then and no longer takes cabs (he was having trouble finding an apartment, can’t imagine why), or he’s started asking for someone else who’ll humor him.
The problem is that this dude, and guys in general who take the view point he espouses, and that you espouse here, is that they don’t see women as people to be friends with, they see us as objects to make them happy.
If he’d just politely asked, accepted the no, and moved on, we’d be fine. I wouldn’t have had to be clear and specific about my lack of desire to interact with him. But he refused to take the rejection over the course of days, continuing to subtly proposition me in a completely inappropriate context. This is the problem.
A woman does not need to approach a man. You have nothing we require. We can exist perfectly fine on our own. That doesn’t mean men suddenly need to spend their every waking moment of interaction with a woman trying to get into her pants.
Want to improve things? Treat women like people rather than goals. Stop thinking about ‘getting’ a woman, and start seeing what kind of relationships you can form with your fellow human beings. Maybe they’ll lead to sex and romance, maybe they won’t, but they’ll be with an actual person sitting in front of you, not an imaginary version of them that you keep locked in your head.
What? No. Women don’t feel safe around men because many men, when interacting with women, are fucking creeps.
How do you think they became creepy? I don’t think that comes out of nowhere. Or do you think it’s just innate that we’re creepy at some point?
Even that interaction you had with that man was very frightening I understand that. It still doesn’t take away from the original point I made. I’m also sure he also faces these expectations many men face even in today’s society. It doesn’t excuse what he did though.
The problem is that this dude, and guys in general who take the view point he espouses, and that you espouse here, is that they don’t see women as people to be friends with, they see us as objects to make them happy.
Where in my post did I even imply we don’t see women as people?
A woman does not need to approach a man. You have nothing we require. We can exist perfectly fine on our own. That doesn’t mean men suddenly need to spend their every waking moment of interaction with a woman trying to get into her pants.
You wanna talk about being treated as a human being but you won’t reciprocate the same. How do you think these men feel at the thought of going up to someone they find attractive and talk to them? If you understand how nerve-wracking it is for men then you wouldn’t be expecting them to make the first move that easily. They don’t need to approach a woman, that doesn’t mean they don’t have sexual needs they need to fulfill, women too. Men would feel desired if women also make the first move and do it very obviously.
Also, let’s not kid ourselves here. If you’re attracted to men in general, there are men out there that you do find attractive. That’s reason enough for you to approach him.
Many women I’ve spoken to expect men to make the first move, and many men tried giving shy men tips on how to make the first move and let her see him as “the man” (a language I hate so much). When I suggest they go up to him and tell him they like him, they prefer to send signals and hope he picks them up instead.
Overall, I can tell from this comment you didn’t read a single word I’ve written on my post. Nowhere did I suggest men should treat women as goalposts, in fact, I didn’t even give any dating advice here at all.
A woman does not need to approach a man. You have nothing we require.
An odd generalisation since many women do approach men and also many women are approached frequently and so their needs are satisfied.
That said, I personally agree. There’s nothing I currently require from a woman, so I don’t approach them romantically.
I’m not diminishing the female experience of male aggression / frustration / awfulness. I’ve never felt physically threatened by a woman. But I have met women who are creepy and persistent, who don’t understand that plenty of men aren’t open to having sex with any woman.
