One of the main characters in hazbin is an anthropomorphic spider prostitute porn star drug addict named “angel dust” who is in a very graphic emotionally, physically and sexually abusive relationship with the porn studio director that’s exploiting them, and one of his major themes is why he hates himself for liking being treated like that.
While not the most graphic show Ive seen (despite multiple onscreen dismemberments), it’s easily the most adult oriented cartoon/anime I’ve watched. It’s certainly not geared for children and I would be extremely uncomfortable having a conversation about why people stay with their abusers with a kid. It’s not me being prudish, its that it requires a fuckload of societal context that most adults don’t have in order to be able to discuss it in anything like a mature way, and I don’t want to have to explain things like “the gray areas around coercion and nonconsensual sex” to someone else’s kid in a panel setting. It’s going to be as uncomfortable for them as it is for me when we get to, say, “self harm as expressed through consenting to sexual abuse”.
Thats an easier to explain example, and it’s certainly a conversation you should have with your kids when they’re old enough, but thats just one example out of many. I certainly don’t want to have to explain the 2000 years of real-world religious bloodshed being evoked with lines like “if hell is forever then that means heaven’s a lie” to a kid, either.
(Not to harp on about it, but the scene with angel trying to get charlie out of the studio before valentino notices her is such an accurate portrayal of living with an abuser that it regularly triggers people’s PTSD, and that commonly comes up at hazbin panels. You might have been watching Urotsukidoji as a kid, but I really doubt you were reading Lolita or The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo)
You should, it’s damn good! The sister show, Helluva Boss, is free on youtube and is quite different but also very good and I highly recommend it. (Heads up, Hazbin’s pilot episode is canon and plot critical and on youtube and is not included with the rest of the show, which is on prime video. Watch that first!)
Real question here, you ever worked with any children, or is this idealism? Because the idea that a child could have the relevant background to understand the nuanced motivations of characters in these situations is pretty… well depressing, if we assume that all children are going to have that background.
As an illustrative example, children’s media. It isn’t simplistic because we’re condescending, it’s simplistic because its both to explain simple, fundemental concepts and becasue that’s what kids enjoy. They can relate to it, because it addresses concepts that they have the intellectual capacity and prerequisite understanding to be able to relate to it. This is childhood education at its heart.
I don’t want to explain concpets that most actual adults cant understand, or even discuss in a mature way, to a child. People use “you’ll understand when your older” all too often as an excuse to brush aside questions they just don’t want to take the time to explain, but sometimes it’s because explaining “I hated myself so much I didn’t care what happened with my body which is why I have all these scars that spell out words you hopefully dont know yet on my chest/legs/back” isn’t something a child can understand. And thank fuck for that.
I’ve been around enough to know they respect sometimes not being treated like children.
I’m not saying that a child who’s not ready for something should be forced to deal with it. The role of a parent is to be a safety net they can run back to every time the world gets a little too scary—literally, there are studies about this. But for a child that is ready, who wants to know, what I mean to find out is why you would reject them.
I don’t want to explain concpets that most actual adults cant understand, or even discuss in a mature way, to a child.
See, the worry I have is that things like this are the reason those adults don’t understand it. In some respects, these adults are still children because they were never given the opportunity to learn.
And it’s not like it can’t be useful to them. The fact that people can be abused, like certain aspects of it, then hate themselves for liking any part of it—I mean, I can think of a few “left alone with uncle” situations that really ring true here. If they can’t understand what they themselves are going through, I really don’t know what hope they have.
Just to reiterate, I’m not saying we should gather up every 4-year-old and show them a snuff film. What I am saying is that, to some degree, growing up is a self-directed process, and when somebody is ready to tackle something, they should at least be given the chance to experiment with those ideas. Even for adults: only as much as they can handle, and a warm, comfortable room when they can’t anymore.
But for a child that is ready, who wants to know, what I mean to find out is why you would reject them.
Ah, I see. While I think you’ve got a really rose tinted view of childhood that very much is at odds with what I understand childhood development to look like, that’s probably just because I’m a very jaded bitch. But that said, I’ve been under the impression you think it should be the job of panelists or strangers to educate children. If we’re talking about a child I know, that I could reasonably judge would be able to understand the concepts and not be freaked out by them, then sure that would be fine.
But there is no way for me to judge that about somebody else’s kid - and it’s ridiculous that someone would think other people should be comfortable being forced into that situation (ie, the people bringing their children to these kinds of panels). I’m sure glad their parents might think they’re ready to face concepts from Paw Patrol After Dark, but so many parents are just neglectful bastards, or assume that their kids are ready for mature topics when they are clearly not. Hazbin isn’t exactly ‘toybox killer tapes’ levels of fucked up, but it’s certainly got some content that could really mess up a kid’s perspective of the world if they weren’t careful, and those topics are absolutely discussed at panels like this, hence why the panelists in question are uncomfortable having children in the audience.
I guess my point here is that while I do broadly agree with your point, and that I am (and even have been in the past) perfectly comfortable talking to kids about my scars (most of them now just emotional, yay), I’m not comfortable talking to every/any kid about that, and that’s been what I’ve understood you to be arguing in favor of. Sorry for that!
(Imo, the role of a parent should be to regulate when self-directed discovery should be and is encouraged, and when it should be curtailed until the child in question is ready to experience a given topic. A difficult line to walk, yes, but a pretty important one. Children are notoriously bad judges of what they are actually ready for, and you can’t build up an immunity to emotional trauma Dread Pirate Roberts style…)
Wouldn’t a kid just not understand what’s happening though? We’ve all experienced watching something again as an adult and being like “ohhhhh THAT’s what it’s about.”
And/or most kids recognize “this character is doing something bad,” even if they don’t understand the context, aren’t we just talking another satanic panic here? Like how it was false alleged CoD or D&D makes kids into serial killers.
I’m not saying kids shouldn’t watch it, though imo they shouldn’t, just that there’s no way I would be comfortable discussing it around a kid.
I think the danger is not in children understanding it, its that they’ll misunderstand it, and with some topics you want to be careful to ensure a kid has the right background context to understand it.
One of the main characters in hazbin is an anthropomorphic spider prostitute porn star drug addict named “angel dust” who is in a very graphic emotionally, physically and sexually abusive relationship with the porn studio director that’s exploiting them, and one of his major themes is why he hates himself for liking being treated like that.
While not the most graphic show Ive seen (despite multiple onscreen dismemberments), it’s easily the most adult oriented cartoon/anime I’ve watched. It’s certainly not geared for children and I would be extremely uncomfortable having a conversation about why people stay with their abusers with a kid. It’s not me being prudish, its that it requires a fuckload of societal context that most adults don’t have in order to be able to discuss it in anything like a mature way, and I don’t want to have to explain things like “the gray areas around coercion and nonconsensual sex” to someone else’s kid in a panel setting. It’s going to be as uncomfortable for them as it is for me when we get to, say, “self harm as expressed through consenting to sexual abuse”.
Thats an easier to explain example, and it’s certainly a conversation you should have with your kids when they’re old enough, but thats just one example out of many. I certainly don’t want to have to explain the 2000 years of real-world religious bloodshed being evoked with lines like “if hell is forever then that means heaven’s a lie” to a kid, either.
(Not to harp on about it, but the scene with angel trying to get charlie out of the studio before valentino notices her is such an accurate portrayal of living with an abuser that it regularly triggers people’s PTSD, and that commonly comes up at hazbin panels. You might have been watching Urotsukidoji as a kid, but I really doubt you were reading Lolita or The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo)
you’ve just convinced me that I must watch this show.
You should, it’s damn good! The sister show, Helluva Boss, is free on youtube and is quite different but also very good and I highly recommend it. (Heads up, Hazbin’s pilot episode is canon and plot critical and on youtube and is not included with the rest of the show, which is on prime video. Watch that first!)
I… you don’t think they could learn from that?
I mean, if it’s really just that it’s too much work to explain, why would it make you uncomfortable?
Why would the panel people be the one’s doing this?
Real question here, you ever worked with any children, or is this idealism? Because the idea that a child could have the relevant background to understand the nuanced motivations of characters in these situations is pretty… well depressing, if we assume that all children are going to have that background.
As an illustrative example, children’s media. It isn’t simplistic because we’re condescending, it’s simplistic because its both to explain simple, fundemental concepts and becasue that’s what kids enjoy. They can relate to it, because it addresses concepts that they have the intellectual capacity and prerequisite understanding to be able to relate to it. This is childhood education at its heart.
I don’t want to explain concpets that most actual adults cant understand, or even discuss in a mature way, to a child. People use “you’ll understand when your older” all too often as an excuse to brush aside questions they just don’t want to take the time to explain, but sometimes it’s because explaining “I hated myself so much I didn’t care what happened with my body which is why I have all these scars that spell out words you hopefully dont know yet on my chest/legs/back” isn’t something a child can understand. And thank fuck for that.
I’ve been around enough to know they respect sometimes not being treated like children.
I’m not saying that a child who’s not ready for something should be forced to deal with it. The role of a parent is to be a safety net they can run back to every time the world gets a little too scary—literally, there are studies about this. But for a child that is ready, who wants to know, what I mean to find out is why you would reject them.
See, the worry I have is that things like this are the reason those adults don’t understand it. In some respects, these adults are still children because they were never given the opportunity to learn.
And it’s not like it can’t be useful to them. The fact that people can be abused, like certain aspects of it, then hate themselves for liking any part of it—I mean, I can think of a few “left alone with uncle” situations that really ring true here. If they can’t understand what they themselves are going through, I really don’t know what hope they have.
Just to reiterate, I’m not saying we should gather up every 4-year-old and show them a snuff film. What I am saying is that, to some degree, growing up is a self-directed process, and when somebody is ready to tackle something, they should at least be given the chance to experiment with those ideas. Even for adults: only as much as they can handle, and a warm, comfortable room when they can’t anymore.
Ah, I see. While I think you’ve got a really rose tinted view of childhood that very much is at odds with what I understand childhood development to look like, that’s probably just because I’m a very jaded bitch. But that said, I’ve been under the impression you think it should be the job of panelists or strangers to educate children. If we’re talking about a child I know, that I could reasonably judge would be able to understand the concepts and not be freaked out by them, then sure that would be fine.
But there is no way for me to judge that about somebody else’s kid - and it’s ridiculous that someone would think other people should be comfortable being forced into that situation (ie, the people bringing their children to these kinds of panels). I’m sure glad their parents might think they’re ready to face concepts from Paw Patrol After Dark, but so many parents are just neglectful bastards, or assume that their kids are ready for mature topics when they are clearly not. Hazbin isn’t exactly ‘toybox killer tapes’ levels of fucked up, but it’s certainly got some content that could really mess up a kid’s perspective of the world if they weren’t careful, and those topics are absolutely discussed at panels like this, hence why the panelists in question are uncomfortable having children in the audience.
I guess my point here is that while I do broadly agree with your point, and that I am (and even have been in the past) perfectly comfortable talking to kids about my scars (most of them now just emotional, yay), I’m not comfortable talking to every/any kid about that, and that’s been what I’ve understood you to be arguing in favor of. Sorry for that!
(Imo, the role of a parent should be to regulate when self-directed discovery should be and is encouraged, and when it should be curtailed until the child in question is ready to experience a given topic. A difficult line to walk, yes, but a pretty important one. Children are notoriously bad judges of what they are actually ready for, and you can’t build up an immunity to emotional trauma Dread Pirate Roberts style…)
Wouldn’t a kid just not understand what’s happening though? We’ve all experienced watching something again as an adult and being like “ohhhhh THAT’s what it’s about.”
And/or most kids recognize “this character is doing something bad,” even if they don’t understand the context, aren’t we just talking another satanic panic here? Like how it was false alleged CoD or D&D makes kids into serial killers.
I’m not saying kids shouldn’t watch it, though imo they shouldn’t, just that there’s no way I would be comfortable discussing it around a kid.
I think the danger is not in children understanding it, its that they’ll misunderstand it, and with some topics you want to be careful to ensure a kid has the right background context to understand it.