So, Matthew is speaking to Jewish Chistians and is absolutely attempting to focus the main blame on the Jewish people, partially as an attempt to fulfil prophecy and partially because the response by the Jewish elite to Christians was extremely negative, even compared to other messianic splinters of the time. Rome still gets the blame
Luke however is speaking to the Pauline community that was one of the two main factions that became modern Christianity, and he is trying to placate the Roman Empire from persecutions while also low key advocating guillotining the rich. So the Jews make a convenient group to blame and there’s already the tradition.
John often is thought to have the seed of future Christian antisemitism, but honestly I just think he’s a debate bro and taking potshots at whatever school he’s flamewaring with that paragraph. Love John, what a poster.
So, firstly we are talking about first century Christians, pre 2nd/3rd Jewish revolt. The Jewish authorities still had wide religious and political power in this era.
Jesus was the opposite of the generally conceived notion of the Messiah as a Maccebean style military leader. He died, there was a distinct lack of military conquest, and his (frankly quite limited) preaching to gentiles and Samaritans didn’t help
Petrene/Jamesite and the Jewish section of the Johannine community were banned from synagogue, and Paul notes that Jewish authorities openly hunted and prosecuted early Christian groups. And these were the Pharisees, a middle and lower class fundamentalist movement that became modern Judaism.
The rich, the Saducees were even more hostile, viewing them as a threat to the fragile balance of power with Rome, and having major theological differences (priestly Judaism generally denied the existence of judgement and was ambivalent to hostile about the existence of the afterlife)
The evangelical character of early Christians didn’t help, it was the equivalent of a bunch of Mormons showing up at your high Anglican mass and claiming no really their were Jews in America and this is the true promised land. They were Annoying
Compared to the mostly insular Essenes and the politically powerful Zealots, the Christians were easy targets to show the Romans that Jewish authorities had it all under control.
That said, the idea all the apostles died as martyrs is laughable. Pre Nero persecutions were largely restrained and generally politically motivated.
Both do, Pharisees are considered to be the direct predecessor of Rabbinic Judaism, since they more successfully survived the revolts. Their key difference with other factions aside from metaphysical things like the afterlife was an acknowledgement of the “Oral Torah” instead of just the written bible, and a strong commitment to theological debate. After the destruction of the temple this was written down in Babylon, first as the Mishnah and then the Talmud.
While Jesus paints them as his key opponent and critiques them for being overly focused on the letter rather than the spirit of the law, (the Saducees being largely beneath contempt), there’s a certain mutual respect going on as both Jesus and the Pharisees are massive, massive debate bros and have a similar class base. Some of the upper members of the Pharisees movement like Gamaliel are revered in both faiths.
Karaite Jews are different as are Beta Israel in that they retain a few more priestly aspects though their precise historical lineage is under some debate.
Jesus was Workingclass while the Messiah was expected to be “from a Kingly Line” and all of that .
So the Hatred is kind of the same Hatred that we get from the Priveledge to the non Priveledged that reject their Authority.
so i just vibe it as beeing like
:
"Theres this FUCKING! LOWBORN! Carpenter Son That Rejects our Teachings ! He is Gatthering other Lowborns aroundhim and he makes a Mockery of our Spiritual Authority ! He Preaching against us and our source of Income ! He wants to Topple us ! and he has the Audacity to Claim that he is gods Son ! A Fucking Galilean ! Can you belive it. We will make an Example of him !1! "
I can’t speak to the historicity of this but I read a hypothesis that the Romans deflected blame onto the Jews when they established Christianity as their state religion, which if true would make it one of the foundational moments in European antisemitism
Certainly sounds more true than not (though I’m aware that doesn’t necessarily make it so). Latin (western, Catholic/Protestant) Christianity basically took a grassroots, pacifistic, anti-materialistic (and anti-wealth in general) religion and turned it into a crusading, genociding, hyper-intolerant and hyper-imperialist nightmare.
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So, Matthew is speaking to Jewish Chistians and is absolutely attempting to focus the main blame on the Jewish people, partially as an attempt to fulfil prophecy and partially because the response by the Jewish elite to Christians was extremely negative, even compared to other messianic splinters of the time. Rome still gets the blame
Luke however is speaking to the Pauline community that was one of the two main factions that became modern Christianity, and he is trying to placate the Roman Empire from persecutions while also low key advocating guillotining the rich. So the Jews make a convenient group to blame and there’s already the tradition.
John often is thought to have the seed of future Christian antisemitism, but honestly I just think he’s a debate bro and taking potshots at whatever school he’s flamewaring with that paragraph. Love John, what a poster.
I think you meant this comment for ThomasMuentzner?
Yeah, probably, sigh
What exactly did they do? I was under the impression that all they did was reject the bible
So, firstly we are talking about first century Christians, pre 2nd/3rd Jewish revolt. The Jewish authorities still had wide religious and political power in this era.
Jesus was the opposite of the generally conceived notion of the Messiah as a Maccebean style military leader. He died, there was a distinct lack of military conquest, and his (frankly quite limited) preaching to gentiles and Samaritans didn’t help
Petrene/Jamesite and the Jewish section of the Johannine community were banned from synagogue, and Paul notes that Jewish authorities openly hunted and prosecuted early Christian groups. And these were the Pharisees, a middle and lower class fundamentalist movement that became modern Judaism.
The rich, the Saducees were even more hostile, viewing them as a threat to the fragile balance of power with Rome, and having major theological differences (priestly Judaism generally denied the existence of judgement and was ambivalent to hostile about the existence of the afterlife)
The evangelical character of early Christians didn’t help, it was the equivalent of a bunch of Mormons showing up at your high Anglican mass and claiming no really their were Jews in America and this is the true promised land. They were Annoying
Compared to the mostly insular Essenes and the politically powerful Zealots, the Christians were easy targets to show the Romans that Jewish authorities had it all under control.
That said, the idea all the apostles died as martyrs is laughable. Pre Nero persecutions were largely restrained and generally politically motivated.
When you say moden Judaism, you mean non-reformist Judaism?
Or do both contain aspects of the Pharisees’ movement?
Both do, Pharisees are considered to be the direct predecessor of Rabbinic Judaism, since they more successfully survived the revolts. Their key difference with other factions aside from metaphysical things like the afterlife was an acknowledgement of the “Oral Torah” instead of just the written bible, and a strong commitment to theological debate. After the destruction of the temple this was written down in Babylon, first as the Mishnah and then the Talmud.
While Jesus paints them as his key opponent and critiques them for being overly focused on the letter rather than the spirit of the law, (the Saducees being largely beneath contempt), there’s a certain mutual respect going on as both Jesus and the Pharisees are massive, massive debate bros and have a similar class base. Some of the upper members of the Pharisees movement like Gamaliel are revered in both faiths.
Karaite Jews are different as are Beta Israel in that they retain a few more priestly aspects though their precise historical lineage is under some debate.
this is just how i see it :
Jesus was Workingclass while the Messiah was expected to be “from a Kingly Line” and all of that .
So the Hatred is kind of the same Hatred that we get from the Priveledge to the non Priveledged that reject their Authority.
so i just vibe it as beeing like
:
"Theres this FUCKING! LOWBORN! Carpenter Son That Rejects our Teachings ! He is Gatthering other Lowborns aroundhim and he makes a Mockery of our Spiritual Authority ! He Preaching against us and our source of Income ! He wants to Topple us ! and he has the Audacity to Claim that he is gods Son ! A Fucking Galilean ! Can you belive it. We will make an Example of him !1! "
Certainly sounds more true than not (though I’m aware that doesn’t necessarily make it so). Latin (western, Catholic/Protestant) Christianity basically took a grassroots, pacifistic, anti-materialistic (and anti-wealth in general) religion and turned it into a crusading, genociding, hyper-intolerant and hyper-imperialist nightmare.