(The context of the bet was an acquaintance claiming girls only cared about the Sisters of Battle. I told him he’s full of shit, he prompted me for counterexamples and I’ve been annoying him ever since.)
I know a decent sized cadre of women in the hobby and not a one is into the Sisters. Tyranids seemed to be most popular for awhile and then Adeptus Mechanicus and Eldar. Some chaos forces round everything out.
I think lore wise just the fact that “girls can play too” in the Emporer’s legions isn’t enough to make the army popular. Rather it calls attention to the design that makes them seem suplimentry to the lore rather than essential. That they are accompanied by cherublike things - basically battle babies- seems to strike a dischord… Like the narrow space afforded them is big enough to remind them that women have wombs.
I imagine there’s women out there who play Sisters… But I don’t really know one.
That they are accompanied by cherublike things - basically battle babies- seems to strike a dischord… Like the narrow space afforded them is big enough to remind them that women have wombs.
Oh damn, I didn’t even notice that! Yeah, I can see how that would be reductive. Crazy nuns with babies… hmm. I was mostly asking for material to annoy someone with but this thread actually got me thinking deeply about things.
What a bizarre take. Like yeah, in a setting where women of significance are rare yeah we sure are more likely to gravitate to the few examples of women. But also I don’t remember much about the sisters of battle, but I don’t recall thinking “oh cool women,” I remember thinking “oh of course that’s where the women show up and how the toxic portion of the player base acts about them”.
Part of what I like about Orks is that an all male species is very different from a wildly misogynistic faction. In fact my guess is that the imperium is probably played way less by women (proportionally to overall player preference) than non-humanoids and non-gendered factions. The imperium feels far more like real and uncomfortable threats than a fungus of war or an invading swarm.
I didn’t push the point, but the impression I got was a watered down version of the “pandering” argument. Like “female characters are pandering to female fans” but instead of complaining about the pandering it was more “I think it’s neat they get to have someone to play with too”. Not strictly misogynistic, more misguided, does that make sense?
Then again, I can’t really speak for how that would actually come across with women.
I remember thinking “oh of course that’s where the women show up and how the toxic portion of the player base acts about them”.
There are also the Banshees! Female-only Eldar warriors, highly mobile, lethal in Melee and with a piercing warcry inducing fear, heralds of doom and grief… I don’t quite know how to feel about the fact that the second prominent all-female force is defined by screeching, but like I said, I can’t comment on the female PoV.
Part of what I like about Orks is that an all male species is very different from a wildly misogynistic faction.
No gender roles, only Dakka, and if they stare at your chest it’s because they’re admiring the gun strapped across it.
I can see the appeal.
In fact my guess is that the imperium is probably played way less by women (proportionally to overall player preference) than non-humanoids and non-gendered factions. The imperium feels far more like real and uncomfortable threats than a fungus of war or an invading swarm.
I never really had to think about that, but it makes sense. Personally, I like the Mechanicus where your biology is mostly irrelevant anyway.
Yeah that sounds like a dude who doesn’t talk to nerdy chicks. Like, part of why I wouldn’t play imperium is that it’s all men, but it’s largely in that regards that if we’re going to do fiction with heavy gender roles I want women to have things we’re doing. Storm light Archive did it well where for all of men’s power in the depicted society, literacy was deemed extremely feminine putting the legacy of every general and the knowledge of every surgeon in a woman’s hands. The imperium has none of that. The adeptus mechanus could’ve easily been all women for example.
And yeah the banshees feels weird. Like these are space elves. You want to be weird about it be an Ed Greenwood kind of weird about it. Like, just do your own version of space drow. The crux is to follow the theme of a power fantasy turned mad and twisted. It sounds like they just don’t understand what a female power fantasy looks like. Do elven huntresses. Psyker mind breakers. Whatever just something it wouldn’t feel strange to have men doing.
And yeah the Orks speak to the strong feminine desire to play Zerg. And they’re just cool with the only feminist critiques I have of it are mild and happening because [gestures at rest of the setting]. They’re silly and fun and they give you good reason to do weird things. And because if I show up playing them I’m not going to have some guy make a blatantly misogynistic comment. Only dakka and knowing that your army gets to be the chosen of Khorne.
Whatever just something it wouldn’t feel strange to have men doing.
Maybe that’s a thing many men - myself included, I suppose - don’t fully understand: It’s not about giving women a space of their own too, but about sharing “ours” that never should have been just ours in the first place; about being a part instead of apart. Does that sound right?
I’ll be frank, I’m still deprogramming a lot of preconceptions that I just took for granted growing up. It’s weird and somewhat concerning how I consider myself progressive, but every now and then still find these blind spots and biases. It shows just how deep these things can run.
I think it’s partly that. Like I generally am ok with men and women having spaces separate when they’re small and inconsequential. In fact I run a women’s group and have told men in my community that a counterpart group would probably be good for some of the guys, but historically it’s often been a way to push rigid gender roles that wind up with women’s contributions less respected and less powerful.
But when it comes to games and stories my litmus test is are women able to do cool things without being tokenized or used mostly in a way that feels misogynistic.
And the rough thing about feminism is that that’s such a common struggle. Patriarchy is not just some outside force. We all grew up in a society that had unjust and gendered expectations and assumptions and we’re taking up the task of untying this gordian knot. The goal as I see it is for gender to become merely a trait rather than a class and if I’m honest that still feels radical and I know I’m probably on my way from a young agitating feminist towards an older woman who has to push to stick with the times. And that’s the struggle all forms of people trying to improve the world face.
Sorry if that last paragraph was off, it was an interesting thought to spend a break with
Thank you for your contribution.
Orks are neat for sure.
(The context of the bet was an acquaintance claiming girls only cared about the Sisters of Battle. I told him he’s full of shit, he prompted me for counterexamples and I’ve been annoying him ever since.)
I know a decent sized cadre of women in the hobby and not a one is into the Sisters. Tyranids seemed to be most popular for awhile and then Adeptus Mechanicus and Eldar. Some chaos forces round everything out.
I think lore wise just the fact that “girls can play too” in the Emporer’s legions isn’t enough to make the army popular. Rather it calls attention to the design that makes them seem suplimentry to the lore rather than essential. That they are accompanied by cherublike things - basically battle babies- seems to strike a dischord… Like the narrow space afforded them is big enough to remind them that women have wombs.
I imagine there’s women out there who play Sisters… But I don’t really know one.
Oh damn, I didn’t even notice that! Yeah, I can see how that would be reductive. Crazy nuns with babies… hmm. I was mostly asking for material to annoy someone with but this thread actually got me thinking deeply about things.
What a bizarre take. Like yeah, in a setting where women of significance are rare yeah we sure are more likely to gravitate to the few examples of women. But also I don’t remember much about the sisters of battle, but I don’t recall thinking “oh cool women,” I remember thinking “oh of course that’s where the women show up and how the toxic portion of the player base acts about them”.
Part of what I like about Orks is that an all male species is very different from a wildly misogynistic faction. In fact my guess is that the imperium is probably played way less by women (proportionally to overall player preference) than non-humanoids and non-gendered factions. The imperium feels far more like real and uncomfortable threats than a fungus of war or an invading swarm.
I didn’t push the point, but the impression I got was a watered down version of the “pandering” argument. Like “female characters are pandering to female fans” but instead of complaining about the pandering it was more “I think it’s neat they get to have someone to play with too”. Not strictly misogynistic, more misguided, does that make sense?
Then again, I can’t really speak for how that would actually come across with women.
There are also the Banshees! Female-only Eldar warriors, highly mobile, lethal in Melee and with a piercing warcry inducing fear, heralds of doom and grief… I don’t quite know how to feel about the fact that the second prominent all-female force is defined by screeching, but like I said, I can’t comment on the female PoV.
No gender roles, only Dakka, and if they stare at your chest it’s because they’re admiring the gun strapped across it.
I can see the appeal.
I never really had to think about that, but it makes sense. Personally, I like the Mechanicus where your biology is mostly irrelevant anyway.
Yeah that sounds like a dude who doesn’t talk to nerdy chicks. Like, part of why I wouldn’t play imperium is that it’s all men, but it’s largely in that regards that if we’re going to do fiction with heavy gender roles I want women to have things we’re doing. Storm light Archive did it well where for all of men’s power in the depicted society, literacy was deemed extremely feminine putting the legacy of every general and the knowledge of every surgeon in a woman’s hands. The imperium has none of that. The adeptus mechanus could’ve easily been all women for example.
And yeah the banshees feels weird. Like these are space elves. You want to be weird about it be an Ed Greenwood kind of weird about it. Like, just do your own version of space drow. The crux is to follow the theme of a power fantasy turned mad and twisted. It sounds like they just don’t understand what a female power fantasy looks like. Do elven huntresses. Psyker mind breakers. Whatever just something it wouldn’t feel strange to have men doing.
And yeah the Orks speak to the strong feminine desire to play Zerg. And they’re just cool with the only feminist critiques I have of it are mild and happening because [gestures at rest of the setting]. They’re silly and fun and they give you good reason to do weird things. And because if I show up playing them I’m not going to have some guy make a blatantly misogynistic comment. Only dakka and knowing that your army gets to be the chosen of Khorne.
Maybe that’s a thing many men - myself included, I suppose - don’t fully understand: It’s not about giving women a space of their own too, but about sharing “ours” that never should have been just ours in the first place; about being a part instead of apart. Does that sound right?
I’ll be frank, I’m still deprogramming a lot of preconceptions that I just took for granted growing up. It’s weird and somewhat concerning how I consider myself progressive, but every now and then still find these blind spots and biases. It shows just how deep these things can run.
I think it’s partly that. Like I generally am ok with men and women having spaces separate when they’re small and inconsequential. In fact I run a women’s group and have told men in my community that a counterpart group would probably be good for some of the guys, but historically it’s often been a way to push rigid gender roles that wind up with women’s contributions less respected and less powerful.
But when it comes to games and stories my litmus test is are women able to do cool things without being tokenized or used mostly in a way that feels misogynistic.
And the rough thing about feminism is that that’s such a common struggle. Patriarchy is not just some outside force. We all grew up in a society that had unjust and gendered expectations and assumptions and we’re taking up the task of untying this gordian knot. The goal as I see it is for gender to become merely a trait rather than a class and if I’m honest that still feels radical and I know I’m probably on my way from a young agitating feminist towards an older woman who has to push to stick with the times. And that’s the struggle all forms of people trying to improve the world face.
Sorry if that last paragraph was off, it was an interesting thought to spend a break with