Hey you actually noticed this too! In general, a lot of people love their idea of person the rather than the real person. Which i’ve been wondering about a lot lately. Any musing on how to tell if you’re in love with your perception of a person rather than the actual person?
Any musing on how to tell if you’re in love with your perception of a person rather than the actual person?
Write down the specific things you miss, and then ask yourself whether you’d miss any person who did those things or had those traits.
I think it’s entirely reasonable to miss both, and in fact very natural. In many cases you’re grieving what’s absent from your life now that they are gone - the presence they brought into your life, the people they introduced you to, the things you did together, the way they made you feel, etc.
Another good exercise is to look at what they brought to your life and ask yourself whether any of the rest of your social network can provide these things or currently does. This can be a good way to find out where you can strive to grow your life. If they were the only person you could go to with difficult feelings, you should probably branch out and look for other people who can fulfill the same role even if they don’t fulfill it in exactly the same capacity. If you’re monogamous there are things which only your partner will be able to provide, but you should try and abstract ideas like physical touch from sex because both are important and they potentiate each other.
Interesting story the other day, a male and female friend did something independently that I found cute. I didn’t tell either of them that it’s cute. For the male - didn’t want to offend him by saying X was cute. For the female, didn’t want her to think I’m hitting on her.
A few years ago I offended a male friend by saying something along those lines.
Honestly, feel slightly bad to have to check my speech and I def didn’t check myself with the ex. I could try talking with these friends about this but uhh I don’t know how to bring it up, specifically around the male.
I typically ask people what words to use or avoid with them when complimenting and follow it up with “such as cute or handsome” because it tends to get the point across when it comes to gendered language. People have hangups for many valid reasons and I want people to receive language in the way they desire.
Write down the specific things you miss, and then ask yourself whether you’d miss any person who did those things or had those traits.
I knew I had no standards before but writing them out really emphasizes that feeling. I got: 1. just the company of having someone around even if we’re not talking, 2. ample eye contact, 3. things like holding hands or even just sitting shoulder to shoulder.
I’m het dude and have been having a a good time with dudes, which I guess is because it’s pretty easy to have 1 and 2 met.
Thinking about it, I think I’ve had better friendships with women. With men, I suspect some degree of machoism might make them do stuff like less eye contact? Which might explain my findings.
Have you considered seeking these kinds of behavior out from people whom you are not dating? I understand that the fact you are dating may make you feel differently about these particular acts, but getting regular bodily contact with people you enjoy spending time with may make it easier to deal with not having a partner and help you move on from your ex.
While it may seem weird to ask since you’ve never asked your friends about it before, you might want to start by asking them. Like if you feel compelled to sit next to someone you could ask if its okay to sit next to them. You could ask your friends if its okay to cuddle. I regularly ask people if I can lay my head down in their lap, because I enjoy that particular dynamic. I understand for societal and internalized reasons why you might not want to do this with people of certain genders, but I would ask you to challenge these assumptions with the people you know and love. However, if you’re too uncomfortable with this idea to put it into practice with your existing friend group, you could seek out friends for which this is a dynamic you are looking for. You might be surprised how many people out there are explicitly okay with and seeking for this kind of behavior from their friends. It might help to explicitly seek out queer friend groups as they tend to be much more okay with and display this kind of affectionate behavior more often.
It might help to explicitly seek out queer friend groups as they tend to be much more okay with and display this kind of affectionate behavior more often.
Yeah i have noticed this! One gay male acquintance would say uhh compliments / excessively nice statements to me (read: strange to hetero culture over here) I didn’t really know what was going on and just assumed the guy thought i was good looking or smthg but i didn’t mind since he wasn’t sleezy about it.
You could ask your friends if its okay to cuddle.
Similarly, 2 bi acquintances said they’d cuddle naked and shower and stuff and I had absolutely 0 idea what they were going on about, bc apparently they weren’t interested in the other and that 404 errorred me so probably just nodded my head and maybe threw out an active listening statement. Personally, that’d be way to much for me circa 2022.
Female friends did wayyy more affectionate stuff with each other then us lads. I always felt it was lame af of us lads. Like my exgf would dance with a male friend’s gf, leaving us with, uhh, nothing to do for like a few mins. When the gfs would initiate dancing with each other, i’d sorta look over at the dude and try to feel out if he wanted to dance together or something, but nada.
I regularly ask people if I can lay my head down in their lap, because I enjoy that particular dynamic.
Wow crazy, this would have Never had crossed my mind! What gender and sexuality are you if you don’t mind me asking? I’m cishetman.
I’ve noticed with a few males i suspected were gay that they’d be less friendly with het males then women. I figured they were concerned i’m douchbag or had worse experiences with het men so i didn’t mind much. But doesn’t exactly make it easy for me to talk to them.
Now that i’m a poor adult, i don’t even know how to meet people my age outside of like work. Which is largely due to poverty and my time away from work is spent trying to save money to afford rent. Ex having to walk everywhere takes a while. (Okay, i do know how to meet people… I mett some cool people now and then but very rarely get a chance to follow up on it)
Personally, that’d be way to much for me circa 2022.
That’s totally okay, sometimes it can take a long time to undo what we’ve internalized from the experiences we’ve had and the culture we grew up in. For most people who grow up in male society, not being physically close with others is reinforced many, many ways. The old thought was that this kind of behavior was ‘gay’ and thus ostracized. Today many are embracing (quite literally) the idea that it’s healthy and okay, but it’s a very slow change and surrounding yourself with people who have a different set of values which reflect addressing your needs can help to accelerate your comfort with this kind of behavior.
i’d sorta look over at the dude and try to feel out if he wanted to dance together or something, but nada.
He probably grew up in a very similar environment to you. How often do you see two men dancing with each other at the club? More today than 10 years ago, certainly, but much less often than two women. This is the power of societal reinforcement. Unfortunately it means many other men may be unwilling to participate in physical bonding (well, at least in this case… physical bonding seems to be a lot more common when it comes to sports - celebrating scoring points and good plays, slapping each other’s asses, etc.) and you may need to turn your attention to queer spaces which are more affectionate in this manner or towards women who are okay with this. Unfortunately many women will not be physically affectionate with men because many men misread this sign or see this as an opening to be a sexual predator.
What gender and sexuality are you if you don’t mind me asking? I’m cishetman.
Non-binary pansexual
I figured they were concerned i’m douchbag or had worse experiences with het men so i didn’t mind much. But doesn’t exactly make it easy for me to talk to them.
Many people have their guard up for many good reasons. Being upfront, honest, and vulnerable can help to break down these barriers. Sharing thoughts about your feelings - the wants and needs, and the troubles you’re experiencing is generally speaking not a very cishetman thing to do and can help to show the vulnerability and desire to connect with another. It might not be the magic bullet 100% of the time, but I think it can help for you to form deeper bonds.
Also, I think it’s not a bad idea to bring things like this up with the person if you want to form a deeper bond with them. I would never be offended if someone came to me and said something along the lines of “hey, I just wanted you to know that I really value you as a friend and I want to get to know you better but I feel like you have your guard up around me. I don’t know if this is a result of how you’ve been treated in the past or if it’s just in my head but I want you to know that I value our relationship and really enjoy spending time with you”
Unfortunately many women will not be physically affectionate with men because many men misread this sign
I think it’s mostly due to societal expectation. Ex even me, for the most part, I have very little understanding of being close emotionally or physically with someone and not dating them. Like I can theorize about it, but it’s just theories in my head, since i have basically no real experience of this. Sounds like the life you’ve lived/other ppl in the same community would be an interesting work of fiction. Aliens in like avengers movies are pretty much just typical society copy and pasted by with a skin change.
I would never be offended if someone came to me and said something along the lines of
I dig it. But in my life, both men and women would be offended if i said this to them haha. But i’ll ponder on this for a while and see if i can come up with a modification i could use.
Sharing thoughts about your feelings - the wants and needs, and the troubles you’re experiencing is generally speaking not a very cishetman thing to do and can help to show the vulnerability and desire to connect with another.
It’s genuinely a risky approach to do this, bc it’s not uncommon to be called a pussy (or similar) for sharing the vulnerabilities. Last happened to me 2 weeks ago. Though it was a (likely) cishetWoman, but she seems pretty conservative, so got black swaned there. But yeah, if i can correctly read a person isn’t gonna be offended by ‘i can feel pain’, then it’s probably helpful.
Also, you blog about this kind of thing anywhere? I wanna read more about the world you’ve live lol
You’ll find no sage here. When it comes to questions of how to think, I’d recommend people to read philosophy.
We’re talking about a person as a social role; a person as an idea vs a person as a reality. When I say ‘Man/Woman’, ‘Lover’, ‘Partner’, ‘Boyfriend/Girlfriend’, ‘attractive’, ‘sex’, certain thoughts come to mind, without context you likely have forms/images in your mind you would give to these words, idealized forms, possibly even multiple distinct forms for the same word, which are likely rooted in popular culture or lived experience.
Are you thinking more about the person, or the idealized form you associate with the context that person had in your life?
Can you remove the person from the role and still value them as a person?
If your ex were to love another, would you be able to have a genuinely positive reaction towards this?
“Love” is a word we should be careful with when referring to a former lover, thinking in those terms might cause confusion even if we’re attempting to mean it in the general sense. We often concieve of “love” as having some sort of profound meaning, but even if we’re not rejecting that line of reasoning outright, it is important we should distance ourselves from it in this case and answer the more basic question: Is this person, as they are, important to me? And maybe equally: Am I still of any importance to them? Because any real relationship is mutual.
That might be the limit of what I have to say on the matter, for the most part my study has been on the dialectics of relationships, not so much on how to think about them after the fact.
I studied mine. If I was going to address the problems we’d had, I needed to understand them. Understanding a problem isn’t always enough to solve it though, as i found out.
Hey you actually noticed this too! In general, a lot of people love their idea of person the rather than the real person. Which i’ve been wondering about a lot lately. Any musing on how to tell if you’re in love with your perception of a person rather than the actual person?
Write down the specific things you miss, and then ask yourself whether you’d miss any person who did those things or had those traits.
I think it’s entirely reasonable to miss both, and in fact very natural. In many cases you’re grieving what’s absent from your life now that they are gone - the presence they brought into your life, the people they introduced you to, the things you did together, the way they made you feel, etc.
Another good exercise is to look at what they brought to your life and ask yourself whether any of the rest of your social network can provide these things or currently does. This can be a good way to find out where you can strive to grow your life. If they were the only person you could go to with difficult feelings, you should probably branch out and look for other people who can fulfill the same role even if they don’t fulfill it in exactly the same capacity. If you’re monogamous there are things which only your partner will be able to provide, but you should try and abstract ideas like physical touch from sex because both are important and they potentiate each other.
Interesting story the other day, a male and female friend did something independently that I found cute. I didn’t tell either of them that it’s cute. For the male - didn’t want to offend him by saying X was cute. For the female, didn’t want her to think I’m hitting on her.
A few years ago I offended a male friend by saying something along those lines.
Honestly, feel slightly bad to have to check my speech and I def didn’t check myself with the ex. I could try talking with these friends about this but uhh I don’t know how to bring it up, specifically around the male.
I typically ask people what words to use or avoid with them when complimenting and follow it up with “such as cute or handsome” because it tends to get the point across when it comes to gendered language. People have hangups for many valid reasons and I want people to receive language in the way they desire.
I knew I had no standards before but writing them out really emphasizes that feeling. I got: 1. just the company of having someone around even if we’re not talking, 2. ample eye contact, 3. things like holding hands or even just sitting shoulder to shoulder.
I’m het dude and have been having a a good time with dudes, which I guess is because it’s pretty easy to have 1 and 2 met.
Thinking about it, I think I’ve had better friendships with women. With men, I suspect some degree of machoism might make them do stuff like less eye contact? Which might explain my findings.
Have you considered seeking these kinds of behavior out from people whom you are not dating? I understand that the fact you are dating may make you feel differently about these particular acts, but getting regular bodily contact with people you enjoy spending time with may make it easier to deal with not having a partner and help you move on from your ex.
Yeah I’m open to that. But not sure where to begin with that that isn’t what I’m already doing
While it may seem weird to ask since you’ve never asked your friends about it before, you might want to start by asking them. Like if you feel compelled to sit next to someone you could ask if its okay to sit next to them. You could ask your friends if its okay to cuddle. I regularly ask people if I can lay my head down in their lap, because I enjoy that particular dynamic. I understand for societal and internalized reasons why you might not want to do this with people of certain genders, but I would ask you to challenge these assumptions with the people you know and love. However, if you’re too uncomfortable with this idea to put it into practice with your existing friend group, you could seek out friends for which this is a dynamic you are looking for. You might be surprised how many people out there are explicitly okay with and seeking for this kind of behavior from their friends. It might help to explicitly seek out queer friend groups as they tend to be much more okay with and display this kind of affectionate behavior more often.
Yeah i have noticed this! One gay male acquintance would say uhh compliments / excessively nice statements to me (read: strange to hetero culture over here) I didn’t really know what was going on and just assumed the guy thought i was good looking or smthg but i didn’t mind since he wasn’t sleezy about it.
Similarly, 2 bi acquintances said they’d cuddle naked and shower and stuff and I had absolutely 0 idea what they were going on about, bc apparently they weren’t interested in the other and that 404 errorred me so probably just nodded my head and maybe threw out an active listening statement. Personally, that’d be way to much for me circa 2022.
Female friends did wayyy more affectionate stuff with each other then us lads. I always felt it was lame af of us lads. Like my exgf would dance with a male friend’s gf, leaving us with, uhh, nothing to do for like a few mins. When the gfs would initiate dancing with each other, i’d sorta look over at the dude and try to feel out if he wanted to dance together or something, but nada.
Wow crazy, this would have Never had crossed my mind! What gender and sexuality are you if you don’t mind me asking? I’m cishetman.
I’ve noticed with a few males i suspected were gay that they’d be less friendly with het males then women. I figured they were concerned i’m douchbag or had worse experiences with het men so i didn’t mind much. But doesn’t exactly make it easy for me to talk to them.
Now that i’m a poor adult, i don’t even know how to meet people my age outside of like work. Which is largely due to poverty and my time away from work is spent trying to save money to afford rent. Ex having to walk everywhere takes a while. (Okay, i do know how to meet people… I mett some cool people now and then but very rarely get a chance to follow up on it)
That’s totally okay, sometimes it can take a long time to undo what we’ve internalized from the experiences we’ve had and the culture we grew up in. For most people who grow up in male society, not being physically close with others is reinforced many, many ways. The old thought was that this kind of behavior was ‘gay’ and thus ostracized. Today many are embracing (quite literally) the idea that it’s healthy and okay, but it’s a very slow change and surrounding yourself with people who have a different set of values which reflect addressing your needs can help to accelerate your comfort with this kind of behavior.
He probably grew up in a very similar environment to you. How often do you see two men dancing with each other at the club? More today than 10 years ago, certainly, but much less often than two women. This is the power of societal reinforcement. Unfortunately it means many other men may be unwilling to participate in physical bonding (well, at least in this case… physical bonding seems to be a lot more common when it comes to sports - celebrating scoring points and good plays, slapping each other’s asses, etc.) and you may need to turn your attention to queer spaces which are more affectionate in this manner or towards women who are okay with this. Unfortunately many women will not be physically affectionate with men because many men misread this sign or see this as an opening to be a sexual predator.
Non-binary pansexual
Many people have their guard up for many good reasons. Being upfront, honest, and vulnerable can help to break down these barriers. Sharing thoughts about your feelings - the wants and needs, and the troubles you’re experiencing is generally speaking not a very cishetman thing to do and can help to show the vulnerability and desire to connect with another. It might not be the magic bullet 100% of the time, but I think it can help for you to form deeper bonds.
Also, I think it’s not a bad idea to bring things like this up with the person if you want to form a deeper bond with them. I would never be offended if someone came to me and said something along the lines of “hey, I just wanted you to know that I really value you as a friend and I want to get to know you better but I feel like you have your guard up around me. I don’t know if this is a result of how you’ve been treated in the past or if it’s just in my head but I want you to know that I value our relationship and really enjoy spending time with you”
I think it’s mostly due to societal expectation. Ex even me, for the most part, I have very little understanding of being close emotionally or physically with someone and not dating them. Like I can theorize about it, but it’s just theories in my head, since i have basically no real experience of this. Sounds like the life you’ve lived/other ppl in the same community would be an interesting work of fiction. Aliens in like avengers movies are pretty much just typical society copy and pasted by with a skin change.
I dig it. But in my life, both men and women would be offended if i said this to them haha. But i’ll ponder on this for a while and see if i can come up with a modification i could use.
It’s genuinely a risky approach to do this, bc it’s not uncommon to be called a pussy (or similar) for sharing the vulnerabilities. Last happened to me 2 weeks ago. Though it was a (likely) cishetWoman, but she seems pretty conservative, so got black swaned there. But yeah, if i can correctly read a person isn’t gonna be offended by ‘i can feel pain’, then it’s probably helpful.
Also, you blog about this kind of thing anywhere? I wanna read more about the world you’ve live lol
You’ll find no sage here. When it comes to questions of how to think, I’d recommend people to read philosophy.
We’re talking about a person as a social role; a person as an idea vs a person as a reality. When I say ‘Man/Woman’, ‘Lover’, ‘Partner’, ‘Boyfriend/Girlfriend’, ‘attractive’, ‘sex’, certain thoughts come to mind, without context you likely have forms/images in your mind you would give to these words, idealized forms, possibly even multiple distinct forms for the same word, which are likely rooted in popular culture or lived experience.
Are you thinking more about the person, or the idealized form you associate with the context that person had in your life?
Can you remove the person from the role and still value them as a person?
If your ex were to love another, would you be able to have a genuinely positive reaction towards this?
“Love” is a word we should be careful with when referring to a former lover, thinking in those terms might cause confusion even if we’re attempting to mean it in the general sense. We often concieve of “love” as having some sort of profound meaning, but even if we’re not rejecting that line of reasoning outright, it is important we should distance ourselves from it in this case and answer the more basic question: Is this person, as they are, important to me? And maybe equally: Am I still of any importance to them? Because any real relationship is mutual.
That might be the limit of what I have to say on the matter, for the most part my study has been on the dialectics of relationships, not so much on how to think about them after the fact.
Is much more along my lines
You study relationships?
I studied mine. If I was going to address the problems we’d had, I needed to understand them. Understanding a problem isn’t always enough to solve it though, as i found out.
Can I ask you to share your story and findings?