Don’t like the inclusion of the Brazilian Jesus, pretty obvious and easy choice, and Christians and evangelist on Brazil (and in general everywhere) are enemies of the workers.
It’s their independence day today b.t.w.(, 200 and one year since 1822).
I’m christian and i’m a communist, clearly in favor of liberation theology, and it hurts that you’re right.
It doesn’t make sense, but the Church supports the poors in words and ~not in deeds, perhaps because a lot of communists were anti-clerical, but still, you’re right.
St Augustine of Hippo’s epitaph is :
What makes the heart of a christian heavy ?
That s·he is a pilgrim, and longeth for h·is·er own country.
That’s my words, and those of millions/billions before me.
Far-right christians supporters would probably say that societal (pseudo-)problems are more important than socio-economic ones, and that the inhabitants of communist countries are asking for our help to free them.
But if i ever stumble upon a christian supporter of capitalist political parties, i hope that they’d confirm to me that our vision of the paradise/‘city of God’ on Earth is mostly the same. Christianity is fundamentally compatible with utopian socialism. And if that’s the case, then we only need to produce an effective counter-propaganda to make them realise the usual lies about authoritarianism, the efficiency of free market with its external negativities, the steal of ‘lucrative properties’/‘passive income’/‘capital’s revenues’, etc. Longing for a better world is half the work of being a communist, and western societies don’t even have a long-term vision to attain this utopia.
Okay, I’m a Brazilian atheis but let me give u some trivia about Brazilian catholic church and the liberation theology.
The Brazilian catholic church backed the military coup in Brazil in 1964 but a lot of their members were actually left wing and a lot were communists. One of the most famous was the bishop Dom Helder Camara. He once said something like “if I give bread to the poor they call me saint, if I ask why they don’t have bread they call me communist”.
The first UNE(National students union) congress after they were banned was held in a church’s basement and was heavily supported by local priests. UNE was banned because it was heavily dominated by a lot of communist parties and tendencies as well as other left wing parties. Most of the best, and worst, left wing politicians we have were in UNE in the 70s and 80s.
That being said, this monument is easily the most recognizable we have right now so I totally understand the choice.
Yeah, a bit surprising that Dom Câmara died of old age when you read about his life, the Brazilian dictatorship seems to have been brutal, i do not have to check to know that it was supported by the west.
Thanks for your comment !
In France, none of my friends, coworkers, or family members are religious, and they’re not on Lemmy either a.f.a.i.k. I’d say that on the Internet there’s the same proportion of ‘anti-communists’//communists among christians and atheists, but once again it’s hard for me to identify an internet user as christian so it’d be hard to compare, i liked DebateReligion and CapitalismVsSocialism on reddit, do you know per chance if there’re similar communities somewhere on Lemmy ?
(/c/fediverse@lemmy.world probably has the answer, but i don’t think i have much time to dedicate to it anyway)
B.t.w., another lie told is that religion was only allowed after 1991 in the u.s.s.r., while the article 52 of the 1977 constitution(, and probably before,) already granted it, it’s just sometimes a lie that we can happen to read, among others(, and ignoring the reasons behind the initial conflict).
And yeah, all the economic arguments don’t stand against the economic success of the u.s.s.r., despite the sanctions and the military burden(, and failure of capitalist countries from South America and Africa, pointing out that choosing to reduce or not inegalities/hierarchy isn’t the most important factor).
And even if progress was indeed slower under all forms of socialism, which i don’t believe, then perhaps that still, despite that, speed&power isn’t the most important factor, and also that competition between humans and countries should be replaced by cooperation. Well, you already know that, it’s just that we(sterners) refuse to live with communists under pretenses that don’t make sense, we should at least allow them to be different, even if our capitalists-owned countries will have to protect themselves from communist propaganda, a serious case could be made that a united&peaceful world with countries from all kind of ideologies would be greater/‘more instructive’ than an hegemonic communist world, theses benefit from the existence of antitheses for its progress, the alternative to coexistence is something i’d rather not think about, and unecessary/undesirable.
In France, none of my friends, coworkers, or family members are religious
No idea how in France, but in Poland i never met nor heard about religious people who wouldn’t be hostile to communism.
do you know per chance if there’re similar communities somewhere on Lemmy ?
No, i do not know. “CapitalismVsSocialism” or something like that on lemmy would be swarmed by the vilest redditors from multiple anticommunist instances and unusable anyway.
And even if progress was indeed slower under all forms of socialism, which i don’t believe
It was much faster. Still is when you compare socialist and capitalist countries on similar level of development.
a serious case could be made that a united&peaceful world with countries from all kind of ideologies would be greater/‘more instructive’ than an hegemonic communist world
Absolutely not. Capitalism needs to grow to function. Eventually it crashes because infinite growth is not possible on finite planet, but in the meantime capitalist states would necessarily tried to expand on the socialist ones. It makes communism impossible when capitalism still exist because you cannot make stateless, classless, moneyless society when some warlords want to colonize you. Capitalism must be completely eradicated as a system in order to achieve communism.
the alternative to coexistence is something i’d rather not think about, and unecessary/undesirable.
Coexistence with capitalism? That’s paradox of tolerance, capitalism cannot tolerate noncapitalist countries, you can notice this everywhere in its history, both feudal and socialist states (not to mention weaker capitalist states) always came under the attack of stronger ones. Read Lenin’s “Imperialism: the highest state of capitalism”
in Poland i never met nor heard about religious people who wouldn’t be hostile to communism.
Yeah i’m not surprised, most people in France are either hostile or ignorant about communism, because freedom, and since “we live in the least worst system we know”.
I suppose that it may be hard two generations later to still find communist people in Poland after the ban of communist symbols and ideas, and having one of the highest growths in Europe.
On coexistence, united in diversity, this a topic that i’'ve been very interested in for the last years.
First, the middle ages proved that capitalism, or feodalism, or slavery, can subsist with a stagnation, as long as they’re powerful enough to maintain their exploitation of the laborers.
Even if that wasn’t the case, there’re new technologies to report this end of ressources such as thorium-based nuclear reactors, green chemistry, asteroids mining, …
Your point about ideologies wanting to expand is the most obvious one, i think that a world united in diversity wouldn’t stagnate, ideologies should expand slowly and naturally, local laws could enable an initially socialist city/region to become&stay capitalist a very long time, within a socialist country, there shouldn’t be a conflict, just personal preferences enriching all of us.
Of course, there’s some conditions, i usually talk about a common army, an effective and somehow incorruptible world tribunal to prevent covert actions, very few laws at the world-level but more and more federal->national->regional->communal laws piling upon each other, and world projects, a collaboration between all countries on all levels, shared medias and a celebration of each other diversity, and certainly more, do you see other conditions ?
It’s what i wrote earlier about utopias, we need to set the goal in mind and progressively walk towards it, not… simply living, without a clear common goal, so weird not to know the short&long-term objectives of our countries.
What i’m saying is that a set of condition exist so that every country would leave in peace, united yet diverse, without any more reason to worry about their security, and to waste abysmal funds in maintaining a national army, capitalists countries would be protected, socialists as well, islamists, and whatever else survived the colonization.
The Cristo Redentor is still the most recognisable man-made structure in Brazil and possibly the first thing most foreigners think. And like it or not, Brazil is an overwhelmingly Christian nation (I’m atheist btw), so I think it’s a false dichotomy to position Christians as enemies of workers when they’re largely the same people.
Given we’re the second biggest settler state in America, there aren’t really that many physical monuments that are completely uncontroversial, but that one seems to me to be one of the least so.
I think the Cristo Redentor probably one of the most recognizable symbols of Brazil, and whether or not you are Christian it is pretty impressive feat. I am an atheist myself, but that doesn’t preclude me from appreciating artistic/architectural achievements that represent religious symbology. Along with Taj Mahal (also pictured) it is one of the New Seven Wonders.
In your mind, what would be a better symbol? The National Congress is pretty recognizable but not nearly as iconic.
Christians and evangelist on Brazil (and in general everywhere) are enemies of the workers.
You mean that the absolute majority of the Brazilian workers are enemy of the Brazilian workers? Grown up from this silly and simplist anti-christian thought. Are you 15?
The Christianity is a important aspect of our culture, mainly the popular Catholicism syncretized with indigenous and African traditions. Furthermore, Christ the Redeemer is our most famous postcard for God’s sake.
In addition, those who in fact invariably cause harm, because they are a kind of contemporary colonization project coming from the United States, the neo-Pentecostal evangelicals, are precisely the ones who are against any representation of Christ, if they could they would overthrow Christ the Redeemer tomorrow.
Don’t like the inclusion of the Brazilian Jesus, pretty obvious and easy choice, and Christians and evangelist on Brazil (and in general everywhere) are enemies of the workers.
It’s their independence day today b.t.w.(, 200 and one year since 1822).
I’m christian and i’m a communist, clearly in favor of liberation theology, and it hurts that you’re right.
It doesn’t make sense, but the Church supports the poors in words and ~not in deeds, perhaps because a lot of communists were anti-clerical, but still, you’re right.
St Augustine of Hippo’s epitaph is :
That’s my words, and those of millions/billions before me.
Far-right christians supporters would probably say that societal (pseudo-)problems are more important than socio-economic ones, and that the inhabitants of communist countries are asking for our help to free them.
But if i ever stumble upon a christian supporter of capitalist political parties, i hope that they’d confirm to me that our vision of the paradise/‘city of God’ on Earth is mostly the same. Christianity is fundamentally compatible with utopian socialism. And if that’s the case, then we only need to produce an effective counter-propaganda to make them realise the usual lies about authoritarianism, the efficiency of free market with its external negativities, the steal of ‘lucrative properties’/‘passive income’/‘capital’s revenues’, etc. Longing for a better world is half the work of being a communist, and western societies don’t even have a long-term vision to attain this utopia.
Okay, I’m a Brazilian atheis but let me give u some trivia about Brazilian catholic church and the liberation theology.
The Brazilian catholic church backed the military coup in Brazil in 1964 but a lot of their members were actually left wing and a lot were communists. One of the most famous was the bishop Dom Helder Camara. He once said something like “if I give bread to the poor they call me saint, if I ask why they don’t have bread they call me communist”.
The first UNE(National students union) congress after they were banned was held in a church’s basement and was heavily supported by local priests. UNE was banned because it was heavily dominated by a lot of communist parties and tendencies as well as other left wing parties. Most of the best, and worst, left wing politicians we have were in UNE in the 70s and 80s.
That being said, this monument is easily the most recognizable we have right now so I totally understand the choice.
Yeah, a bit surprising that Dom Câmara died of old age when you read about his life, the Brazilian dictatorship seems to have been brutal, i do not have to check to know that it was supported by the west. Thanks for your comment !
If? I have to ask that, but do you live on the Moon? Because on Earth overwhelming most christians are exactly those type.
In France, none of my friends, coworkers, or family members are religious, and they’re not on Lemmy either a.f.a.i.k. I’d say that on the Internet there’s the same proportion of ‘anti-communists’//communists among christians and atheists, but once again it’s hard for me to identify an internet user as christian so it’d be hard to compare, i liked DebateReligion and CapitalismVsSocialism on reddit, do you know per chance if there’re similar communities somewhere on Lemmy ?
(/c/fediverse@lemmy.world probably has the answer, but i don’t think i have much time to dedicate to it anyway)
B.t.w., another lie told is that religion was only allowed after 1991 in the u.s.s.r., while the article 52 of the 1977 constitution(, and probably before,) already granted it, it’s just sometimes a lie that we can happen to read, among others(, and ignoring the reasons behind the initial conflict).
And yeah, all the economic arguments don’t stand against the economic success of the u.s.s.r., despite the sanctions and the military burden(, and failure of capitalist countries from South America and Africa, pointing out that choosing to reduce or not inegalities/hierarchy isn’t the most important factor).
And even if progress was indeed slower under all forms of socialism, which i don’t believe, then perhaps that still, despite that, speed&power isn’t the most important factor, and also that competition between humans and countries should be replaced by cooperation. Well, you already know that, it’s just that we(sterners) refuse to live with communists under pretenses that don’t make sense, we should at least allow them to be different, even if our capitalists-owned countries will have to protect themselves from communist propaganda, a serious case could be made that a united&peaceful world with countries from all kind of ideologies would be greater/‘more instructive’ than an hegemonic communist world, theses benefit from the existence of antitheses for its progress, the alternative to coexistence is something i’d rather not think about, and unecessary/undesirable.
No idea how in France, but in Poland i never met nor heard about religious people who wouldn’t be hostile to communism.
No, i do not know. “CapitalismVsSocialism” or something like that on lemmy would be swarmed by the vilest redditors from multiple anticommunist instances and unusable anyway.
It was much faster. Still is when you compare socialist and capitalist countries on similar level of development.
Absolutely not. Capitalism needs to grow to function. Eventually it crashes because infinite growth is not possible on finite planet, but in the meantime capitalist states would necessarily tried to expand on the socialist ones. It makes communism impossible when capitalism still exist because you cannot make stateless, classless, moneyless society when some warlords want to colonize you. Capitalism must be completely eradicated as a system in order to achieve communism.
Coexistence with capitalism? That’s paradox of tolerance, capitalism cannot tolerate noncapitalist countries, you can notice this everywhere in its history, both feudal and socialist states (not to mention weaker capitalist states) always came under the attack of stronger ones. Read Lenin’s “Imperialism: the highest state of capitalism”
Yeah i’m not surprised, most people in France are either hostile or ignorant about communism, because freedom, and since “we live in the least worst system we know”.
I suppose that it may be hard two generations later to still find communist people in Poland after the ban of communist symbols and ideas, and having one of the highest growths in Europe.
On coexistence, united in diversity, this a topic that i’'ve been very interested in for the last years. First, the middle ages proved that capitalism, or feodalism, or slavery, can subsist with a stagnation, as long as they’re powerful enough to maintain their exploitation of the laborers.
Even if that wasn’t the case, there’re new technologies to report this end of ressources such as thorium-based nuclear reactors, green chemistry, asteroids mining, …
Your point about ideologies wanting to expand is the most obvious one, i think that a world united in diversity wouldn’t stagnate, ideologies should expand slowly and naturally, local laws could enable an initially socialist city/region to become&stay capitalist a very long time, within a socialist country, there shouldn’t be a conflict, just personal preferences enriching all of us.
Of course, there’s some conditions, i usually talk about a common army, an effective and somehow incorruptible world tribunal to prevent covert actions, very few laws at the world-level but more and more federal->national->regional->communal laws piling upon each other, and world projects, a collaboration between all countries on all levels, shared medias and a celebration of each other diversity, and certainly more, do you see other conditions ?
It’s what i wrote earlier about utopias, we need to set the goal in mind and progressively walk towards it, not… simply living, without a clear common goal, so weird not to know the short&long-term objectives of our countries.
What i’m saying is that a set of condition exist so that every country would leave in peace, united yet diverse, without any more reason to worry about their security, and to waste abysmal funds in maintaining a national army, capitalists countries would be protected, socialists as well, islamists, and whatever else survived the colonization.
The Cristo Redentor is still the most recognisable man-made structure in Brazil and possibly the first thing most foreigners think. And like it or not, Brazil is an overwhelmingly Christian nation (I’m atheist btw), so I think it’s a false dichotomy to position Christians as enemies of workers when they’re largely the same people.
Given we’re the second biggest settler state in America, there aren’t really that many physical monuments that are completely uncontroversial, but that one seems to me to be one of the least so.
I think the Cristo Redentor probably one of the most recognizable symbols of Brazil, and whether or not you are Christian it is pretty impressive feat. I am an atheist myself, but that doesn’t preclude me from appreciating artistic/architectural achievements that represent religious symbology. Along with Taj Mahal (also pictured) it is one of the New Seven Wonders.
In your mind, what would be a better symbol? The National Congress is pretty recognizable but not nearly as iconic.
They could have done the Sugarloaf mountain
A Pixacao would be cool.
You mean that the absolute majority of the Brazilian workers are enemy of the Brazilian workers? Grown up from this silly and simplist anti-christian thought. Are you 15?
The Christianity is a important aspect of our culture, mainly the popular Catholicism syncretized with indigenous and African traditions. Furthermore, Christ the Redeemer is our most famous postcard for God’s sake.
In addition, those who in fact invariably cause harm, because they are a kind of contemporary colonization project coming from the United States, the neo-Pentecostal evangelicals, are precisely the ones who are against any representation of Christ, if they could they would overthrow Christ the Redeemer tomorrow.
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