I think there’s a simpler, more personal way to make this point. Here’s a few thought experiments:
Imagine you work for a company that lays you off, even while doing enough stock buybacks and executive bonuses such that they could’ve paid your salary for 1000 years. After you get laid off, imagine what would happen if you just ignored them and continued doing your work.
Or, your landlord doesn’t renew your lease because they think you’re ugly and they don’t want ugly people living in their building. Imagine what happens if you just stay, even if you keep sending the landlord their monthly rent on time.
Both of these situations end with armed, taxpayer-funded agents physically removing you from the premises by any means necessary; it is only the omnipresent threat of state violence that keeps capitalist control over their private property. We don’t see the violence because we’ve been trained from an early age not just to accept it, but to not even see it.
I agree with you. That said, as humans, we’re not yet evolved past defending territory we’ve chosen to live on. I think we still need “might” as an option for response, until we as a creator evolve further.
I don’t know if it’s possible to get rid of the final might destination on the continuum of responses to issues, but I think we can agree that the “extra steps” part between “an annoyance” and “possible danger to individuals and society” is extremely lacking and narrow.
I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.
“Warfare is of vital importance to the state, it is a matter of life and death.” -Sun Tzu.
A hundreds of years old warlord recognized this, it’s a thought independent of economics. As long as there’s more than one nation-state on this planet, might is always the end result, including defense from an aggressor.
The idea of inherent violence solely being a capitalist trait doesn’t tell the whole truth because the need for might exists as long as there’s power dynamic, which exists as long as there is govt.
You think it’s the govt that creates the power imbalances that results in violence? This is laughable… government is a result of violence that creates the power imbalance. Your point was reasonable until you conflated the two at the end.
I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.
I’m also from the US, and haven’t lived abroad. It did rise to my awareness in this exchange, having recently begun trying to process Bob Altemeyer’s The Authoritarians
I’ve seen a few solutions to the private property idea posited. I’ll admit my biases, they made me uncomfortable, mainly because they cannot be the only piece of the machine altered.
For ex, there’s a very large company near me that allows one to purchase land to build a house on, but that land is your family’s for 99 years before ownership reverts to the corporation.
I can’t really see the upside for any family, investing a lot of money into property that simply… Vanishes after a time. But that was one of the solutions I previously reviewed, no true ownership. Most of the other ideas were tweaks on that central idea.
Within the context of criticisms of capital, private property expresses a meaning that may be unexpected based strictly on a vernacular interpretation.
Whereas personal property refers to property that is used directly and personally by its owner, private property refers to property that is used by someone else, or another group, such that the owner may profit from asserting private control over such resources despite that they are useful for society or to others.
Businesses and rented properties are private property.
A house someone owns and occupies is personal property.
Very true, although I can’t think of a better solution than having the state monopolize violence and enforce things like personal property etc and that’s not necessarily anything specific to capitalism either.
Some very smart and imaginative anarchist philosophers have been working on exactly that for a very long time, from Mikhail Bakunin 200 years ago to more modern writers like Noam Chomsky or David Graeber. I think their work is worthwhile.
If people who “can’t think of a better way” would stop trying to impose their lack of imagination on the rest of us we would be able to progress.
There are smarter people than you or I in the world and they aren’t the ones running things, the ones whispering, “You’re nothing without me”
The first step of any abusive relationship is recognizing it’s an abusive relationship. The second is to stop making excuses for your abuser and just leave, no matter what they claim the cost to be.
Yes and there are people who can’t leave, eg have no place to go, no means of survival, otherwise. Disabled, power differentiate between men/women/children, etc.
Yep. We’re all stuck and only together can we get unstuck. Unionize. Vote. Share ideas. Help others escape the fog when they get stuck.
Unfortunately some don’t want to be help. They’ll defend their abusers with violence. They are the most dangerous. Flying monkey’s doing the bidding of the powerful.
No shame when they wake though; capitalism is a mind fuck.
Individual descretion occurs within a context of established norms and rules, which would be very different under a society in which everyone protects one another, rather than one in which such responsibility has been forfeit to a power that controls the population.
A society of the prior kind would be safer, by not being held hostage, and by not being disempowered to control itself.
Individual descretion occurs within a context of established norms and rules, which would be very different under a society in which everyone protects one another
It’s called a gang. That’s just gangs. Or tribes. Not a thing that scales up too well. Also not known for its safety.
by not being held hostage
You could literally be held hostage, unless your gang (hope you belong to a tough one) does something about it.
We aren’t disempowered, we vote and elect representatives. We give input that takes those norms and rules and puts them into laws to eliminate that individual discretion that is most often faulty (people have emotions after all, so don’t behave fairly when it’s personal).
Basically all the safest places in the world have violence monopolized by the state to enforce laws. All the most dangerous are where that isn’t the case (gangs, warlords, cartels, corruption) with few exceptions.
A gang is a criminal organization. Its relation to surrounding society is antagonistic, and it is broadly indifferent to the harmful effects it causes to anyone outside. Gangs often enrich themselves by theft supported by violence. They generally do not produce.
A group whose members live nearby to one another and who keep each other safe is a community. Members of a community generally participate in production, as the shared source of wealth and sustenance.
A tribe is a political structure often constituted as a loose affiliation of bands. A band is a kind of community. Bands are usually relatively isolated socially and geographically from other communities.
Many other communities, as often found in modern societies, are highly integrated with other communities, and maintain favorable relationships with them, seeking a minimization of violence, and fostering shared peace and prosperity through production and trade.
Voting is not empowering.
Voting is at best a choice of whom to empower. Those who compete against one another for the votes of the public generally have more in common with each other than with the public. Most rules change very little regardless of who is elected, and most rules carry the broader effect of protecting the power of those already empowered.
Broadly, voting generally maintains and protects, not challenges, the status quo and the disempowerment of the public.
For the public to become empowered, it would need to gain some power relative to those for whom it votes.
States perpetrate violence on massive scales. They function to protect themselves, not to protect the public. For almost the entirety of human existence, people have protected each other without states.
The idea that the state, even as a principle, should protect the public, is quite recent, even relative to the duration since states have emerged, and the practical reality is quite different from the principle.
When the interests of the public come into conflict with the interests of the state, then the state inflicts violence against the public.
When the capacity of the state becomes strained, to inflict violence against the public, then the state simply exercises its power to augment its capacity to inflict violence.
It’s bullshit that exists solely by the power of the state. It only exists as long as we all agree it exists, ever person on the planet. It has only existed for a few centuries but no one can imagine a world without.
Capitalism is the same except worse since no one can agree on what capitalism means. The solution is always to capitalism harder.
Not playing devils advocate by choice: there are systems in place (at least in more democratic countries) that force the employer and the landlord to keep you if you havent done anything wrong.
At will employment is an american joke.
Still, paying more for the shareholders and CEOs than the actual work your water, food and transportation needs is insane.
The idea that I can buy my way around laws and others rights is disgusting to the core.
I think there’s a simpler, more personal way to make this point. Here’s a few thought experiments:
Imagine you work for a company that lays you off, even while doing enough stock buybacks and executive bonuses such that they could’ve paid your salary for 1000 years. After you get laid off, imagine what would happen if you just ignored them and continued doing your work.
Or, your landlord doesn’t renew your lease because they think you’re ugly and they don’t want ugly people living in their building. Imagine what happens if you just stay, even if you keep sending the landlord their monthly rent on time.
Both of these situations end with armed, taxpayer-funded agents physically removing you from the premises by any means necessary; it is only the omnipresent threat of state violence that keeps capitalist control over their private property. We don’t see the violence because we’ve been trained from an early age not just to accept it, but to not even see it.
^ This is the winner, right here. The crux, as it were.
Modern society always ultimately boils down, eventually, to might makes right… just with some extra steps.
I agree with you. That said, as humans, we’re not yet evolved past defending territory we’ve chosen to live on. I think we still need “might” as an option for response, until we as a creator evolve further.
I don’t know if it’s possible to get rid of the final might destination on the continuum of responses to issues, but I think we can agree that the “extra steps” part between “an annoyance” and “possible danger to individuals and society” is extremely lacking and narrow.
I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.
“Warfare is of vital importance to the state, it is a matter of life and death.” -Sun Tzu.
A hundreds of years old warlord recognized this, it’s a thought independent of economics. As long as there’s more than one nation-state on this planet, might is always the end result, including defense from an aggressor.
The idea of inherent violence solely being a capitalist trait doesn’t tell the whole truth because the need for might exists as long as there’s power dynamic, which exists as long as there is govt.
Has anyone claimed that violence has never occurred outside a context of capitalism?
You think it’s the govt that creates the power imbalances that results in violence? This is laughable… government is a result of violence that creates the power imbalance. Your point was reasonable until you conflated the two at the end.
I strongly, strongly dislike what the police have become, and evolved from, in the united States. Someone does need to investigate crime and murder though, and not just a few amateur podcasters. With some careful thought, and likely messy experimentation, we can handle laws being just, fair and useful. How? That seems to be the tricky part.
That’s not exclusive to capitalism .
True, but as an organization, protection of property seems to be their primary focus in more capital-centric societies.
I’m speaking from an admittedly limited experience, having lived in the US most of my life, so I welcome any other perspective or ideas.
I’m also from the US, and haven’t lived abroad. It did rise to my awareness in this exchange, having recently begun trying to process Bob Altemeyer’s The Authoritarians
Private property is the cause of the greatest social disparities, and protecting it is essential for our current systems to preserve themselves.
It should be no surprise that it is implicated in much of the greatest violence in our society.
I’ve seen a few solutions to the private property idea posited. I’ll admit my biases, they made me uncomfortable, mainly because they cannot be the only piece of the machine altered.
For ex, there’s a very large company near me that allows one to purchase land to build a house on, but that land is your family’s for 99 years before ownership reverts to the corporation.
I can’t really see the upside for any family, investing a lot of money into property that simply… Vanishes after a time. But that was one of the solutions I previously reviewed, no true ownership. Most of the other ideas were tweaks on that central idea.
Within the context of criticisms of capital, private property expresses a meaning that may be unexpected based strictly on a vernacular interpretation.
Whereas personal property refers to property that is used directly and personally by its owner, private property refers to property that is used by someone else, or another group, such that the owner may profit from asserting private control over such resources despite that they are useful for society or to others.
Businesses and rented properties are private property.
A house someone owns and occupies is personal property.
Perhaps the issues themselves are not inevitable.
Very true, although I can’t think of a better solution than having the state monopolize violence and enforce things like personal property etc and that’s not necessarily anything specific to capitalism either.
Some very smart and imaginative anarchist philosophers have been working on exactly that for a very long time, from Mikhail Bakunin 200 years ago to more modern writers like Noam Chomsky or David Graeber. I think their work is worthwhile.
I haven’t found Chomskys work to be convincing… it’s always so… extra…
I don’t think it’s extra. Quite the opposite. If anything, it could use a little extra, because it’s extremely dry and academic.
I think we used the slang version of extra differently is all.
Luckily solutions don’t rely on your imagination.
If people who “can’t think of a better way” would stop trying to impose their lack of imagination on the rest of us we would be able to progress.
There are smarter people than you or I in the world and they aren’t the ones running things, the ones whispering, “You’re nothing without me”
The first step of any abusive relationship is recognizing it’s an abusive relationship. The second is to stop making excuses for your abuser and just leave, no matter what they claim the cost to be.
This is a terrible argument.
Is not an argument.
Well that’s a problem.
Yes. For you.
I can no more save you from capitalism than I can save you from an abusive relationship.
The real tell is when I point it out and you get upset with me; classic response by the abused.
Are you intentionally trying to be off-putting?
Nope. Just comes naturally.
It is a respectable argument in the way that matters, as identifying a previous, terrible argument, one that was nothing but an appeal to ignorance.
Yes and there are people who can’t leave, eg have no place to go, no means of survival, otherwise. Disabled, power differentiate between men/women/children, etc.
Yep. We’re all stuck and only together can we get unstuck. Unionize. Vote. Share ideas. Help others escape the fog when they get stuck.
Unfortunately some don’t want to be help. They’ll defend their abusers with violence. They are the most dangerous. Flying monkey’s doing the bidding of the powerful.
No shame when they wake though; capitalism is a mind fuck.
Doing all of it without voting probably would be just as good.
Voting is a critical step. Without voting you’ll lose the ability to the the rest.
How is voting necessary for building unions and helping others?
Unions exist because they were voted into existence. They can be voted out of existence. The right has been working on it for decades
I can’t think of a worse one.
Sorry, it’s the internet so I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not (I’m hoping hyperbole).
Are you genuinely saying you think everyone using violence at their own discretion for example is better?
Individual descretion occurs within a context of established norms and rules, which would be very different under a society in which everyone protects one another, rather than one in which such responsibility has been forfeit to a power that controls the population.
A society of the prior kind would be safer, by not being held hostage, and by not being disempowered to control itself.
It’s called a gang. That’s just gangs. Or tribes. Not a thing that scales up too well. Also not known for its safety.
You could literally be held hostage, unless your gang (hope you belong to a tough one) does something about it.
We aren’t disempowered, we vote and elect representatives. We give input that takes those norms and rules and puts them into laws to eliminate that individual discretion that is most often faulty (people have emotions after all, so don’t behave fairly when it’s personal).
Basically all the safest places in the world have violence monopolized by the state to enforce laws. All the most dangerous are where that isn’t the case (gangs, warlords, cartels, corruption) with few exceptions.
A gang is a criminal organization. Its relation to surrounding society is antagonistic, and it is broadly indifferent to the harmful effects it causes to anyone outside. Gangs often enrich themselves by theft supported by violence. They generally do not produce.
A group whose members live nearby to one another and who keep each other safe is a community. Members of a community generally participate in production, as the shared source of wealth and sustenance.
A tribe is a political structure often constituted as a loose affiliation of bands. A band is a kind of community. Bands are usually relatively isolated socially and geographically from other communities.
Many other communities, as often found in modern societies, are highly integrated with other communities, and maintain favorable relationships with them, seeking a minimization of violence, and fostering shared peace and prosperity through production and trade.
Voting is not empowering.
Voting is at best a choice of whom to empower. Those who compete against one another for the votes of the public generally have more in common with each other than with the public. Most rules change very little regardless of who is elected, and most rules carry the broader effect of protecting the power of those already empowered.
Broadly, voting generally maintains and protects, not challenges, the status quo and the disempowerment of the public.
For the public to become empowered, it would need to gain some power relative to those for whom it votes.
States perpetrate violence on massive scales. They function to protect themselves, not to protect the public. For almost the entirety of human existence, people have protected each other without states.
The idea that the state, even as a principle, should protect the public, is quite recent, even relative to the duration since states have emerged, and the practical reality is quite different from the principle.
When the interests of the public come into conflict with the interests of the state, then the state inflicts violence against the public.
When the capacity of the state becomes strained, to inflict violence against the public, then the state simply exercises its power to augment its capacity to inflict violence.
This applies in general to copyright.
It’s bullshit that exists solely by the power of the state. It only exists as long as we all agree it exists, ever person on the planet. It has only existed for a few centuries but no one can imagine a world without.
Capitalism is the same except worse since no one can agree on what capitalism means. The solution is always to capitalism harder.
Not playing devils advocate by choice: there are systems in place (at least in more democratic countries) that force the employer and the landlord to keep you if you havent done anything wrong.
At will employment is an american joke.
Still, paying more for the shareholders and CEOs than the actual work your water, food and transportation needs is insane.
The idea that I can buy my way around laws and others rights is disgusting to the core.
This is a great comment. Thanks for this.
💖