My theory is that they are living in a world of hierarchies and apologizing is admitting a mistake, which takes them down a few levels on the hierarchy of power/popularity.
Nah, intention is what matters to judge a person, accidents or ignorance are unavoidable, and many other parts of human nature at play here as well…
You also need to just understand that people are flawed and what they do about that is what matters.
Yup exactly. I would even go so far as to say that insisting on getting an apology when they had no intention of hurting is tyrannic. “You were insensitive and now i’m hurt. Now i have the right to make you feel the same way!” – No, doesn’t compute.
Maybe i don’t quite understand. I just hope that i didn’t hurt your feelings with what i said, just because i was unaware of your strong feelings on this topic. If so, then we’d have a complicated situation which also involves slight differences in language and culture. I could not sincerely apologise, and such things might happen again.
Apologising would be wrong, but there are ways to sympathise with the other and at the same time staying at eye level.
Here is where i come from:
I have been on both sides. Being constantly hurt by people not being sensitive enough, and seeing that as their responsibility, hence making them responsible for my feelings. OTOH, falsely apologising too much, saying “sorry” when there was no need to, and therefore being self-degrading.During my process i came to the conclusion that both is not right. There is no “crime of offending”, so to say – not even if an offence was intended (but that’s the advanced “peaceful warrior” class). It is in fact my own “ego” that was (falsely) alarming me of being attacked. (The word “ego” is antiquated but shall suffice here.)
The others do as they do, so it is up to me to actually decide if i want to feel hurt or not. Therefore, it is indeed in the receivers responsibility (ability to respond!). Talking about adults of course; it’s different with minors. –
I found out that i am free to choose if i want to feel offended or not. So i chose not to but instead try to get a better understanding of the sender. It became very hard to hurt my feelings because i can “shield” my receiver, to find it rather interesting to get to look into other people’s sets. (Conflict situations play a valuable part when i do process/shadow work with others.) – I also feel the need to apologise very rarely; mostly when i was really being ignorant, and i often remind others that there is nothing to apologise about when there was just some misunderstanding or such.I read that comment chain again which you are referring to, and had to read it twice because there seemed to be a contradiction. So if you don’t mind, i can tell what discrepancy there is. May this help solve the puzzle. Here is what i see happen:
- The sender does some action or says something, ignorant or unknowing of the fact that their action can hurt you. They had no intention to do so, and the receiver acknowledges that.
- Still, the receiver feels hurt.
- The receiver als acknowledges that the sender can not be forced to apologise because such an apology would be false. Demanding it could lead to the sender going offensive and telling the receiver to just “cope with it”.
I solved this for myself by replacing the middle part. If there was no offence intended, then i can choose not to be hurt, but react in a different way. The best way to go is open communication if possible: “I know you didn’t mean it and i’m not blaming you, but i must let you know that you just met a very sensitive point in me. I would like to tell you …”
But! … There is another desire here at play, and that appears to be the receiver’s need that their feelings be addressed in a comforting way. An apology will not really have that effect anyway; that rather works toward building awareness in the sender. I think what the receiver desires is being helped back on their feet rather than the sender being knocked to the ground for revenge. Therefore, this is asking not for a feel of guilt – but for compassion. 🙂
I just hope that i didn’t hurt your feelings with what i said, just because i was unaware of your strong feelings on this topic.
Not at all! Personally, I welcome other perspectives because they help me grow. I would hate to be in an environment where everyone agrees with me because then I would never learn anything new. You provided a very thorough analysis, and I appreciate it.
There is another desire here at play, and that appears to be the receiver’s need that their feelings be addressed in a comforting way. An apology will not really have that effect anyway; that rather works toward building awareness in the sender. I think what the receiver desires is being helped back on their feet rather than the sender being knocked to the ground for revenge. Therefore, this is asking not for a feel of guilt – but for compassion. 🙂
Yes! I think this is the point. Someone is hurt, and they are seeking consolation, whether that be an apology or some sort of compassionate support. However, I agree that a false apology would not only be inappropriate, but can also be hurtful since the person falsely apologizing might build resentment for doing something they do not want to appease another person’s feelings.
Additionally, taking your analysis and applying it to long-term situations, I think it’s important to be aware of relationships in which one has to often make a purposeful decision to choose whether or not to be offended. If this is happening frequently, then one should really assess why it is happening so much. As autistic people, we can become victims of emotional abuse because we either miss cues or gaslight ourselves as a result of the way were were raised (you’re too sensitive, you don’t understand people, etc.).
Yes! I can’t tell how difficult such a personal development would be for anyone else. I appear not to have that difficulty with reading cues so much, plus i took a very special path in life (part-time modern-day hermit), and being on my own, such things took years. And now i’m still switching forth and back between those states. 😅
almost as “Now´s my time to be the bad guy so we both end up equally wronged”.
LOL
Accidents of ignorance are unavoidable, but accountability is important.
We all make mistakes, what we do about them includes taking responsibility and apologizing, otherwise we’re bound to repeat them and spoil relationships.All very true. Now if it’s something that repeatedly happens despite them now knowing it’s hurtful? Well then even if the action itself isn’t deliberate, the inaction to notice/stop or change can make it equivalent to being deliberate.
That´s another story jaja.
The problem with that is that you get the maliciously ignorant who’ll staunchly refuse to learn and hide behind ‘that wasn’t my intention’/‘I didn’t mean to’ etc. all while keeping up the hurt just as much as the first time.
That isn`t the same lol, only counts if it’ genuine.
What would it help if they apologize if they don’t mean it/see what they did wrong? If it wasn’t person As intention to hurt person B, but B insists that person A apologizes, it would result in A apologizing for Bs feelings aka “I’m sorry you feel this way”. I don’t think that that’s better.
I’m sorry you feel this way
I’ve heard that that type of statement could be considered passive-aggressive because it’s not a real apology since it’s implying that the problem is on the hurt person for choosing to feel that way.
Exactly. I’d interpret “I’m sorry you feel this way” passive-aggressive as well and that’s the reason I wouldn’t want to push someone to apologize to me if they don’t want to. How do THEY get to apologize for MY feelings?
I guess it’s just a difficult situation to be in. I think it is okay if you do something another person doesn’t like/hurts them but not apologize for it. You didn’t know it better. If they tell you that they were hurt by your action then acknowledge it (“It wasn’t my intention. I won’t do it again.”) AND DON’T DO IT AGAIN (if it’s a reasonable request and/or you know the person)! Simple as that. People don’t HAVE TO apologize for their actions especially if it’s something that isn’t offensive to most people and they couldn’t have known someone else doesn’t like it. Of course it would be nice to hear “I’m sorry I hurt you” or something along those lines too, but I also understand that they don’t want to apologize if they don’t see a problem in the act itself. But If they still proceed to do the action then I’d be pissed (again if it’s a reasonable request).
I agree. People don’t have to apologize, but the recipients don’t have to disregard the behaviors. I think the problem comes from when you are upset over their actions despite their intent, and they insist that you don’t feel the way you are feeling. It’s not that I’m requesting an apology, and they don’t want to give one. It’s that I feel a certain way, and they want me to feel differently without apologizing for it. That’s not how I function, and we don’t have to insist on a relationship in which our different functioning styles don’t interact well.
AND DON’T DO IT AGAIN
yesssssssss!!! This is the most important part of any apology. Even if they give the most wonderful speech of an apology that acknowledges their behaviors and impact, it means nothing if they do not take active effective steps to avoid doing it again. If doing something hurtful, apologizing for it, and then doing it again is a pattern, that’s getting into the realm of abuse.
edit (sent the answer too fast)
and they insist that you don’t feel the way you are feeling
okay, I’d say that that is another problem than not wanting for apologizing for one’s actions.
It’s that I feel a certain way, and they want me to feel differently without apologizing for it.
I don’t think that most people want the other person to feel differently but to make them understand that they didn’t hurt them on purpose (that’s why they empathize the ‘but I didn’t mean to’) but then they get defensive when they are asked to apologize because to them that means that the offended person thinks that they did do it on purpose, that they did it to spite/hurt them. Like unknowingly bringing up a sensitive topic during a conversation. They don’t want to apologize that they spoke about this topic because they don’t think that it’s a inherently ‘wrong’ topic to talk about. They do, however, want to convey that they didn’t know that this is a sensitive topic to you and they wouldn’t have brought it up if they’d known better. At least that’s the way I see it if I’m in the position of a neutral observer in this kind of situation.
If your counterpart is actively trying to manipulating you that’s different of course but I didn’t interpret the comic from that point of view.
I’d like them to acknowledge what they did wrong even if they didn’t mean to hurt me? It really doesn’t take much
But isn’t that the point? They don’t think that they did something wrong. They didn’t intend to hurt you with their action, which they try to convey to you, but they don’t think that their action was wrong in principle. Like baking an apple pie for a group where someone is allergic to apples and they didn’t know that or simply just forgot. The action of baking a pie is not something to apologize for even if someone felt left out because they couln’t eat it and therefore were hurt.
I didn’t interpret this comic to be about situations like baking an apple pie for someone they didn’t know is allergic to apples. Who would call that “acting really awful?” I interpreted it as when someone does something mean or hurtful, like actually genuinely hurtful that they should not have done and should not do again, and they refuse to acknowledge it just because their intention wasn’t to hurt someone’s feelings. This is how people respond when I ask them to, e.g., stop saying bigoted things or using manipulation tactics.
It hurts me to see your post, pls apologize
but that wasn’t my intention
I think some people’s self-worth relies on them being “good”/right/perfect, so they can’t apologize without also hurting themselves. I don’t really get it either, because in my experience being able to apologize when you need to, is a huge strength. People will overlook almost any mistake you’ve made when they know that you feel bad about it, instead of having it turn into an useless conflict.
Even if you don’t feel like apologizing surely you can say “I didn’t mean to hurt you and I’ll try not to do it again” or even “I didn’t mean to hurt you but I don’t really care about your feelings/I think you’re being unreasonable” so you know where they stand.
“I’m sorry you feel that way” 😡
i think it’s the difference between people accidentally hurting you and feeling badly about hurting you, and people that wanted to say something unkind and now they feel like the bad guy because you showed that you were hurt by it instead of taking it on the chin and letting them.
If I have acted in a way that has resulted in someone feeling hurt, I am empathetic to their pain. If my choices could reasonably be attributed to negligence or malice I believe it is my responsibility to apologize.
There is an exception however. I will not apologize simply because someone is hurt unless I have done something I can consider “fault”. I may not apologize but I will try to find a way to express my sympathize & if possible look for ways to avoid the same result in the future.
There are plenty of people who will use their pain (real or fake or mixtures) to try to avoid personal responsibilities or externalize their problems. Gaslighting uses this. People CAN gaslight unintentionally even. For both parties I think it’s important to apologize when you have knowingly or unknowingly done something wrong, but be careful taking on responsibility for hurt when it is not yours to take on.
Recently, I’ve set a personal boundary that in cases where the person is out of hand and gaslighting, I start considering terminating the relationship all together.
This could be abusive behavior… someone failing to understand their own actions or empathize with you is a sign of a very unhealthy person.
OR some neurotypicals are aware of their behavior but choose not to apologize anyway because it could be perceived as an admittance of guilt, and they would have to take responsibility for their actions. I used to work in a corporate environment and I never heard anyone apologize for anything. My own boss even told me not to apologize in emails no matter what in case the other person bring said issue up with Human Resources. Mind games suck so bad.
I think it’s just as (or more) abusive when they know what they did wrong but refuse to acknowledge it
Yeah it definitely is.
Is that why I got downvoted? Lol I wasn’t agreeing with them.
I didn’t take it as you agreeing with them, but it seemed like you were saying it’s specifically abusive behavior if and only if they genuinely don’t get what they did wrong
it’s just the bad ones in my experience
Depends on the situation. For instance if my going to work causes someone else to get hurt and cry because I’m triggering their abandonment issues… I’m sorry, I don’t mean to hurt you, I wish it didn’t, but I’m going to have to go to work again.
So if I just do a blanket apology, it will feel hollow since the action MUST happen again.
If I say sorry I hurt your feelings, it also feels hollow because I’m not acknowledging responsibility.
In situations like this displaying empathy and not apologizing are the best because your not making a promise it won’t happen again, but you are trying to help someone navigate the emotional situation, and hopefully build the tools to handle this in the future.
I think it’s about identity and perception of self.
could you please elaborate?
I’m talking about those chronically unable to apologize, and that don’t seem able to learn here.
Some people have trouble separating actions and character, so admitting to committing a mistake becomes emotionally as admitting they’re bad persons, and that threatens their sense of identity.
The emotional connection to their wrongdoing isn’t guilt, but shame for who they are.
It’s connected to low self esteem, in the worst cases to narcissism.
Yass! I got out of a relationship with a narcissist in Oct/Feb. She was unable to apologize for anything the entire time. It was like she has this mortal fear of apologizing. It was incredibly hurtful to say the least, but interesting as a case study. She was seriously incapable of taking accountability.
