If this is how you really think, you need to study the conflict more. There’s plenty of evidence of Israel intentionally targeting civilians in this “war” (genocide is a more appropriate term) alone. And don’t get me started how you condemned October 7th as a terrorist attack even though it’s perfectly legal to take a military action against a foreign occupier.
And about the Gaza disengagement: The rocket attacks started after the blockade, which BTW started in 2005, not 2007.
You need to take a look at the conflict again, and examine your biases if you actually care about the truth.
Edit: What it feels like reading this is that you’re creating nuance where none exists. Not saying there’s no nuance in the conflict, but it’s generally pretty clear-cut with a clear cause and effect chain dating back to the Nakba, or if we take it further to the Balfour declaration.
This kind of thing actually hurts them militarily, since it allows Hamas fighters to get away as well.
genocide is a more appropriate term
And there it is again. Nothing about this is like a genocide. Not the numbers, not the intent, not the way Israel conducts itself. 5000 people per day were killed during the Rwandan genocide using nothing but machetes. Israel could easily inflict a death toll higher than that using their high-tech weapons - and yet they didn’t. It took Israel, even if we believe the numbers published by Hamas, more than two months to achieve what the Hutu managed in three to four days using primitive weapons. How does that make any sense?
Over a larger period of time, the accusation is just as absurd:
There are about five times as many Arab Palestinians today as there were in 1960, but less than four times as many Israelis. There has been no genocide in all of human history where the “genocided” population grows faster (not to mention, without any interruption) compared to the “genociders”.
Here’s what the population graph during an actual genocide looks like:
That’s from the Holodomor (Source: Cambridge University Press).
The issue I have with calling something that isn’t a genocide a genocide is twofold: First of all, this narrative was deliberately designed to hurt Jews in particular, to mock their suffering as the primary victims of the only industrial genocide in human history. It is vile for that reason alone. I’m not accusing you of this, merely of at best unknowingly spreading this hateful lie. Secondly, it is similar to the boy crying wolf. By being this callous with words that have clearly defined meanings, you are making it easier for regimes to commit actual genocide in the future, since people have heard this word so many times by that point, it loses all meanings and they are more inclined to doubt actual genocides, like the ones in China and Myanmar.
And don’t get me started how you condemned October 7th as a terrorist attack even though it’s perfectly legal to take a military action against a foreign occupier.
That is a truly despicable thing to say. Hamas terrorists went from house to house, murdering, torturing, raping and abducting predominately civilians. They killed hundreds of young people at a music festival alone. They raped women and girls so violently that their pelvises broke. Coroners found a black mass that turned out to be an adult and a child bound together by wire and then set on fire while they were still alive. They mutilated girls as they were gangraping them. These terrorists even shot family dogs that came at them with their tails wagging - and worst of all, they filmed and live-streamed these actions for the world to see.
That is not “perfectly legal”, that is not “military action” and it is most certainly not the kind of action an actual resistance movement would perform against what you call an “occupier”.
Here’s the kicker though: In order to enable these atrocities, they performed a highly skilled targeted strike at Israel’s border fortifications. They used drones to take out the communications network and automated defenses, they attacked command centers and totally overwhelmed the few defenders that were in place. Yet immediately afterwards, they went on killing sprees through peaceful villages and towns, places that had worked closely with Palestinians on the other side of the border for many years and done everything they could to support them. Many of these were kibbutzes, small communal hamlets that are about as close to real-world Socialism as you can get. North of the Gaza Strip, there’s an IAF base that was completely undefended. They could have easily taken that base, seriously hampering the Israeli air force from attacking Gaza in return. They did not and instead chose to go on a rampage against civilians nearby.
If Hamas had only performed this initial stage of their attack, I would have admired them for their cunning and skill. That would have been, even if misguided, a legitimate form of armed resistance. They didn’t though, it was merely the prelude, done solely so that they could murder without being disturbed. Captured Hamas fighters have openly admitted that they were instructed to murder and rape as many civilians as possible and abduct the survivors. They even had the locations of nurseries on the maps they carried, of shelters were families would hide.
I really hope that you made this claim out of ignorance and not out of malice. Two days after the massacres, Hamas deleted evidence they had published and celebrated from their social media channels, because they knew they needed naive Westerners to put pressure on Israel. It has been preserved though. Here it is (NSFL):
An interactive map that shows the scale of the massacres as well as the fate of individuals, like the Kapshetar family with their two children, 5 and 8 years old, who were murdered when they tried to flee from the terrorists:
using death tolls as a dick measuring contest to determine what is and isn’t a genocide is really disgusting. I hope you know that. I gave you an upvote because I appreciate your take on this and your sources for everything else. But I really hope we can exist in a space without saying “It doesn’t count as a genocide because enough people didn’t die.” Fuck off with that.
I’m not doing that. I’m merely illustrating how absurd the accusations are. The truly disgusting part is the accusation and how callously it’s being thrown around. It’s a slap in the face into every victim of an actual genocide.
It’s a slap in the face into every victim of an actual genocide.
As opposed to comparing the death rate to the Rwandan genocide? You are literally using dead human beings as a statistic here. The “other side” isn’t. C’mon man.
I’m not doing that.
You literally are. You are comparing different genocides and using one statistic to claim that the term “genocide” doesn’t apply. Which is especially odd to me considering the term “genocide” has never had a number attached to it. This is why we’re able to call the Rohingya Genocide a genocide even though it “only” killed up to 43,000, when the Holocaust killed 6,000,000. The numbers here do not matter.
The other side is constantly touting the numbers published by the Gaza Ministry of Health (run by Hamas). It took Israel weeks to find out how many people were killed in the October 7 pogrom, but somehow, Hamas knows within an hour after every explosion how many people were killed there (see: the hospital parking lot incident, when a rocket fired by a Hamas-aligned group broke up in mid air over Gaza and fell onto the strip). If there is one side using the number of dead human beings for their political gain all the time, it’s Hamas and those who are knowingly or unknowingly carrying water for them. It is revolting how they have weaponized outrage. Every dead Palestinian is their doing and on top of that they found a way to benefit from it. That is one awful incentive loop.
The sad reality is that civilians always suffer the worst during wars. I watched a video showing Gaza shortly before the war. It showed vibrant streets filled with stores, it showed brand new cars next to old rust buckets, stylishly dressed women that look right out of Ryad or Istanbul next to street urchins and kids having to work. I think about those homeless kids often. Where are they know? What happened to them? They don’t have the support networks that are so important in times like these, they can’t wrangle their way through crowds when the few supplies that Hamas doesn’t steal make it through. They are out in the open when bombs are falling and incredibly vulnerable to all sorts of violence even during peacetime already.
You are right in the sense that it is all to easy to lose sight of what’s actually at stake in this conflict here. In the end, it’s less about convoluted political ideas about borders, statehood, identity. It all comes down to what happens to the children, what their future will look like. Us adults are doing a good job of ruining everything for them, that’s for sure and this wretched conflict is no different from countless others around the globe and from our many other failings as a species, especially how we are even ruining the entire planet just so that we can drive around in cars, buy cheap clothes and eat food at an unsustainable rate. This conflict is just one of countless symptoms of a species-wide issue that we are unable to address: Our lack of empathy for both our future selves and our descendants.
Where? Why would they do this if they were intentionally targeting civilians?
So there are many examples, but stuff like this has happened a lot in the past 2 months.
Not the numbers, not the intent, not the way Israel conducts itself.
Genocide isn’t just killing everyone. The Armenian genocide was a genocide, even though it was “just” forced relocation. And we have this and this, among more, as proof of intent.
That is a truly despicable thing to say. Hamas terrorists went from house to house, murdering, torturing, raping and abducting predominately civilians.
So, you’re now taking IDF propaganda at face value. We’re not sure of everything that happened on October 7th, but we do know that from 1200 people who died 600-500 were civilians. And those include people who were actually killed by the IDF, intentionally or otherwise (and yes, some were killed intentionally), and those who were killed in the crossfire. Did some Hamas soldiers commit atrocities in October 7th? Yes. Was October 7th one big terrorist attack? Absolutely not. It was a military attack with clear military goals.
I meant rocket attacks as a large-scale Hamas policy. I thought that was obvious, but maybe it wasn’t. Rocket attacks as a whole started with the second intifada, went down with the disengagement (which had marked the end of the second Intifada), went up again because of the blockade that happened immediately after and from there it just follows the general trends of the Gaza side of the conflict. I’m, not sure what you wanna prove here. I said the blockade happened immediately after the disengagement, and you didn’t offer any evidence stating otherwise.
And those include people who were actually killed by the IDF, intentionally or otherwise (and yes, some were killed intentionally),
That is an outrageous claim that requires hard evidence. So far, the only ones I’ve seen spread it are Hamas. Where on Earth did you pick it up?
The fact that you are spreading casts a big shadow onto everything else you are writing. It’s like being a doctor and then casually mentioning that you don’t believe viruses exists. Nobody would trust you with anything after that, so absurd is this and I feel like I would be wasting my time further engaging with you on your other points.
That is an outrageous claim that requires hard evidence. So far, the only ones I’ve seen spread it are Hamas. Where on Earth did you pick it up?
Yeah it’s a thing. You can find it if you look it up, but there.
To elaborate on the “intentionally” thing, after the attack itself Hamas soldiers holed up in Israeli homes with the hostages, thinking they’d be able to retreat because of course Israel wouldn’t bomb them. Then the IDF bombed Hamas along with the hostages. You’ll find this in the article, but just to sum up.
I’m honestly surprised you haven’t heard of this; I thought it would be common knowledge on this site by now.
Most recently, Nir Hasson returned to Be’eri and interviewed a local resident named Tuval, who was lucky to be away from the kibbutz at the time of the attack but whose partner was killed. In Hasson’s October 20 Haaretz article, he reports:
“His voice trembles when his partner, who was besieged in her home shelter at the time, comes to mind. According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions — including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages — did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”
I guess you can verify from the Haaretz article whether this is correct or not.
Where in all of this is the IDF intentionally killing their own people? You have not provided anything that supports this claim.
Why on Earth would they be doing that in the first place? That would be comic book level of evil, just utterly absurd for the conscription army of a democracy.
They bombed Hamas soldiers who were holing up in hostages’ homes. Intentionally.
According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions — including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages — did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz.
If this is how you really think, you need to study the conflict more. There’s plenty of evidence of Israel intentionally targeting civilians in this “war” (genocide is a more appropriate term) alone. And don’t get me started how you condemned October 7th as a terrorist attack even though it’s perfectly legal to take a military action against a foreign occupier.
And about the Gaza disengagement: The rocket attacks started after the blockade, which BTW started in 2005, not 2007.
You need to take a look at the conflict again, and examine your biases if you actually care about the truth.
Edit: What it feels like reading this is that you’re creating nuance where none exists. Not saying there’s no nuance in the conflict, but it’s generally pretty clear-cut with a clear cause and effect chain dating back to the Nakba, or if we take it further to the Balfour declaration.
Where? Why would they do this if they were intentionally targeting civilians?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079
This kind of thing actually hurts them militarily, since it allows Hamas fighters to get away as well.
And there it is again. Nothing about this is like a genocide. Not the numbers, not the intent, not the way Israel conducts itself. 5000 people per day were killed during the Rwandan genocide using nothing but machetes. Israel could easily inflict a death toll higher than that using their high-tech weapons - and yet they didn’t. It took Israel, even if we believe the numbers published by Hamas, more than two months to achieve what the Hutu managed in three to four days using primitive weapons. How does that make any sense?
Over a larger period of time, the accusation is just as absurd:
https://i.imgur.com/2ydbdvY.jpg
There are about five times as many Arab Palestinians today as there were in 1960, but less than four times as many Israelis. There has been no genocide in all of human history where the “genocided” population grows faster (not to mention, without any interruption) compared to the “genociders”.
Here’s what the population graph during an actual genocide looks like:
https://i.imgur.com/gS9HeYU.png
That’s from the Holodomor (Source: Cambridge University Press).
The issue I have with calling something that isn’t a genocide a genocide is twofold: First of all, this narrative was deliberately designed to hurt Jews in particular, to mock their suffering as the primary victims of the only industrial genocide in human history. It is vile for that reason alone. I’m not accusing you of this, merely of at best unknowingly spreading this hateful lie. Secondly, it is similar to the boy crying wolf. By being this callous with words that have clearly defined meanings, you are making it easier for regimes to commit actual genocide in the future, since people have heard this word so many times by that point, it loses all meanings and they are more inclined to doubt actual genocides, like the ones in China and Myanmar.
That is a truly despicable thing to say. Hamas terrorists went from house to house, murdering, torturing, raping and abducting predominately civilians. They killed hundreds of young people at a music festival alone. They raped women and girls so violently that their pelvises broke. Coroners found a black mass that turned out to be an adult and a child bound together by wire and then set on fire while they were still alive. They mutilated girls as they were gangraping them. These terrorists even shot family dogs that came at them with their tails wagging - and worst of all, they filmed and live-streamed these actions for the world to see.
That is not “perfectly legal”, that is not “military action” and it is most certainly not the kind of action an actual resistance movement would perform against what you call an “occupier”.
Here’s the kicker though: In order to enable these atrocities, they performed a highly skilled targeted strike at Israel’s border fortifications. They used drones to take out the communications network and automated defenses, they attacked command centers and totally overwhelmed the few defenders that were in place. Yet immediately afterwards, they went on killing sprees through peaceful villages and towns, places that had worked closely with Palestinians on the other side of the border for many years and done everything they could to support them. Many of these were kibbutzes, small communal hamlets that are about as close to real-world Socialism as you can get. North of the Gaza Strip, there’s an IAF base that was completely undefended. They could have easily taken that base, seriously hampering the Israeli air force from attacking Gaza in return. They did not and instead chose to go on a rampage against civilians nearby.
If Hamas had only performed this initial stage of their attack, I would have admired them for their cunning and skill. That would have been, even if misguided, a legitimate form of armed resistance. They didn’t though, it was merely the prelude, done solely so that they could murder without being disturbed. Captured Hamas fighters have openly admitted that they were instructed to murder and rape as many civilians as possible and abduct the survivors. They even had the locations of nurseries on the maps they carried, of shelters were families would hide.
I really hope that you made this claim out of ignorance and not out of malice. Two days after the massacres, Hamas deleted evidence they had published and celebrated from their social media channels, because they knew they needed naive Westerners to put pressure on Israel. It has been preserved though. Here it is (NSFL):
https://www.hamas-massacre.net/
An interactive map that shows the scale of the massacres as well as the fate of individuals, like the Kapshetar family with their two children, 5 and 8 years old, who were murdered when they tried to flee from the terrorists:
https://oct7map.com/
They only found the body of Aline (8 years old) after ten days.
https://i.imgur.com/6ZaCNWi.png
I really, really hope you are just uniformed.
using death tolls as a dick measuring contest to determine what is and isn’t a genocide is really disgusting. I hope you know that. I gave you an upvote because I appreciate your take on this and your sources for everything else. But I really hope we can exist in a space without saying “It doesn’t count as a genocide because enough people didn’t die.” Fuck off with that.
I’m not doing that. I’m merely illustrating how absurd the accusations are. The truly disgusting part is the accusation and how callously it’s being thrown around. It’s a slap in the face into every victim of an actual genocide.
As opposed to comparing the death rate to the Rwandan genocide? You are literally using dead human beings as a statistic here. The “other side” isn’t. C’mon man.
You literally are. You are comparing different genocides and using one statistic to claim that the term “genocide” doesn’t apply. Which is especially odd to me considering the term “genocide” has never had a number attached to it. This is why we’re able to call the Rohingya Genocide a genocide even though it “only” killed up to 43,000, when the Holocaust killed 6,000,000. The numbers here do not matter.
The other side is constantly touting the numbers published by the Gaza Ministry of Health (run by Hamas). It took Israel weeks to find out how many people were killed in the October 7 pogrom, but somehow, Hamas knows within an hour after every explosion how many people were killed there (see: the hospital parking lot incident, when a rocket fired by a Hamas-aligned group broke up in mid air over Gaza and fell onto the strip). If there is one side using the number of dead human beings for their political gain all the time, it’s Hamas and those who are knowingly or unknowingly carrying water for them. It is revolting how they have weaponized outrage. Every dead Palestinian is their doing and on top of that they found a way to benefit from it. That is one awful incentive loop.
The sad reality is that civilians always suffer the worst during wars. I watched a video showing Gaza shortly before the war. It showed vibrant streets filled with stores, it showed brand new cars next to old rust buckets, stylishly dressed women that look right out of Ryad or Istanbul next to street urchins and kids having to work. I think about those homeless kids often. Where are they know? What happened to them? They don’t have the support networks that are so important in times like these, they can’t wrangle their way through crowds when the few supplies that Hamas doesn’t steal make it through. They are out in the open when bombs are falling and incredibly vulnerable to all sorts of violence even during peacetime already.
You are right in the sense that it is all to easy to lose sight of what’s actually at stake in this conflict here. In the end, it’s less about convoluted political ideas about borders, statehood, identity. It all comes down to what happens to the children, what their future will look like. Us adults are doing a good job of ruining everything for them, that’s for sure and this wretched conflict is no different from countless others around the globe and from our many other failings as a species, especially how we are even ruining the entire planet just so that we can drive around in cars, buy cheap clothes and eat food at an unsustainable rate. This conflict is just one of countless symptoms of a species-wide issue that we are unable to address: Our lack of empathy for both our future selves and our descendants.
So there are many examples, but stuff like this has happened a lot in the past 2 months.
Genocide isn’t just killing everyone. The Armenian genocide was a genocide, even though it was “just” forced relocation. And we have this and this, among more, as proof of intent.
So, you’re now taking IDF propaganda at face value. We’re not sure of everything that happened on October 7th, but we do know that from 1200 people who died 600-500 were civilians. And those include people who were actually killed by the IDF, intentionally or otherwise (and yes, some were killed intentionally), and those who were killed in the crossfire. Did some Hamas soldiers commit atrocities in October 7th? Yes. Was October 7th one big terrorist attack? Absolutely not. It was a military attack with clear military goals.
I meant rocket attacks as a large-scale Hamas policy. I thought that was obvious, but maybe it wasn’t. Rocket attacks as a whole started with the second intifada, went down with the disengagement (which had marked the end of the second Intifada), went up again because of the blockade that happened immediately after and from there it just follows the general trends of the Gaza side of the conflict. I’m, not sure what you wanna prove here. I said the blockade happened immediately after the disengagement, and you didn’t offer any evidence stating otherwise.
That is an outrageous claim that requires hard evidence. So far, the only ones I’ve seen spread it are Hamas. Where on Earth did you pick it up?
The fact that you are spreading casts a big shadow onto everything else you are writing. It’s like being a doctor and then casually mentioning that you don’t believe viruses exists. Nobody would trust you with anything after that, so absurd is this and I feel like I would be wasting my time further engaging with you on your other points.
Yeah it’s a thing. You can find it if you look it up, but there.
To elaborate on the “intentionally” thing, after the attack itself Hamas soldiers holed up in Israeli homes with the hostages, thinking they’d be able to retreat because of course Israel wouldn’t bomb them. Then the IDF bombed Hamas along with the hostages. You’ll find this in the article, but just to sum up.
I’m honestly surprised you haven’t heard of this; I thought it would be common knowledge on this site by now.
Mondoweiss literally cites Electronic Intifada as one of their sources. That is an unbelievably unreliable and biased source.
Even this article however does at no point support your claim that Israel intentionally killed their own people.
“His voice trembles when his partner, who was besieged in her home shelter at the time, comes to mind. According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions — including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages — did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”
I guess you can verify from the Haaretz article whether this is correct or not.
Where in all of this is the IDF intentionally killing their own people? You have not provided anything that supports this claim.
Why on Earth would they be doing that in the first place? That would be comic book level of evil, just utterly absurd for the conscription army of a democracy.
They bombed Hamas soldiers who were holing up in hostages’ homes. Intentionally.
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