The EU is a neoliberal abomination. Leaving the EU to get blue passports and do more racism is not going to improve things though. European countries are too small to be on their own against the powers of capital as the rapid dismantling of living standards for common people in Terf Island post-Brexit shows. It seems like the viable alternative to the EU is some kind of pro-worker European community that doesn’t exist yet.
Leaving the EU to get blue passports and do more racism is not going to improve things though. European countries are too small to be on their own against the powers of capital as the rapid dismantling of living standards for common people in Terf Island post-Brexit shows.
That’s not the only thing leaving the EU allows for, anything that happens in the UK now is entirely the fault of UK politicians, there’s not the EU scapegoat (which is a real scapegoat) anymore which means brits are in a better position to actually change things politically and exercise their sovereignty than any EU country, and that dismantling of standards that is happening in the UK is happening elsewhere in the EU too, except here in EU countries politics can’t actually be about changing that since it explicitly means going against european institutions.
It seems like the viable alternative to the EU is some kind of pro-worker European community that doesn’t exist yet.
Yeah, which is not the EU. I’m just being facetious when I say I hope everybody leaves I know it’s more complicated than leaving and staying, but what the comments here told me is that some, hopefully not european, leftists really think the european working class is better off with the EU than they would be if they fought it. SAD!!!
I grant that there is an argument to be made for the accelerationist potential of Brexit. We have seen some really impressive strikes and I wouldn’t be surprised if more and more Brits are losing faith in the Westminster parties being able and willing to improve things.
Good things could come from this but declining standards of living, a sclerotic and undemocratic political system combined with emboldened racism also has the potential to lead to fascism.
If in, say, Portugal you want to invest more in healthcare (or apply any radical policy) the government can say “the european comission won’t approve this budget so we can’t do this!”, and that’s true, the budget would get rejected by the EC and you’d have to come up with a new one, and since “the EU is always right” in countries like these everyone will just bow their heads and go “ok guess the government can’t do this thing everyone wants them to do” this is how european politics actually work
Now if you remove the EU, which is an untouchable far-away institution, you have your national government, which is a closer less-untouchable institution.
Now if you remove the EU, which is an untouchable far-away institution, you have your national government, which is a closer less-untouchable institution.
Which can still blame things on those darned eurocrats and their disdain for the island of albion, as seen above and in other examples. Do we have different definitions of what a scapegoat is? I understand it as an entity that isn’t at fault for whatever bad thing but is made to look like one
If in, say, Portugal you want to invest more in healthcare (or apply any radical policy) the government can say “the european comission won’t approve this budget so we can’t do this!”, and that’s true, the budget would get rejected by the EC and you’d have to come up with a new one, and since “the EU is always right” in countries like these everyone will just bow their heads and go “ok guess the government can’t do this thing everyone wants them to do” this is how european politics actually work
The EU has pretty much zilch enforcement mechanisms for anything. Any they do have is political power, not bureaucratic power.
YES THAT’S WHY IT’S INSANE FOR COMMUNISTS TO BE DEFENDING IT LIKE THIS.
If it shoots down the budget a pro-eu government will always respect that decision because the pro-eu population (which is the majority in EVERY EU country) will agree with that, and if they don’t they’ll blame the EU and not their governments, so it’s always a useful scapegoat.
Political power matters and that “any power” is doing a lot, you haven’t dealt with this people, the EU is the chief obstacle for there to be a working class political movement in europe, and defending it because you’re an “antifascist” is insane.
The EU is crap but it not existing isn’t the better alternative tbh. I think way more EU countries would fall to fascism if the EU stopped existing, I’d take neoliberal bureaucrats over my local fascists any time.
On the flip side, consider how far the rest of the world advanced after Europe imploded itself in the 20th century. Perhaps we’d all be better off if the EU imploded again and the US followed thereafter.
I’m sorry brother when I see you use those 3 words in the same sentence I can’t help but feel like politics is just an internet game to you, you’re not an “accelerationist” you’re probably nothing. Good luck
So uh what am I to do here exactly to be the One True Leftist in Europe according to you? My only local real leftist org is kinda crap (I’ve seen for myself), leftism in Europe in general is extremely weak, save for Greece and maybe France, and that’s a big maybe.
If EU liberalism gets deposed it’s not gonna get any better here and my life and the lives of many of my loved ones is gonna get a lot worse, why the fuck would I cheer that on exactly?
I’m not telling you what to do I’m telling you you’re wrong about the EU “stopping fascism”
My only local real leftist org is kinda crap
But if I WERE telling you what to do, I’d say join that one and hopefully talk to people in real life. It’s better than thinking about things like “accelerationism”
It’s not stopping fascism, it’s just a better state of affairs than fascism, literally the “lesser evil”. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize you were making a a “lesser evil” argument, very astute point I’ll defend the EU (hitler’s wet dream) now as the only alternative to fascism
Maybe do something similar yourself instead of tut-tutting people about not posting enough emojis on hexbear.net
Very silly thing to say, I don’t care about emojis I replied to opinions here which I disagreed with, if I had agreed with them I wouldn’t have
Living on terf island I couldn’t agree more. Fuck the EU, soft brexit would’ve been fine. Like, not great but still not the living hell that has been occurring since hard brexit.
Either way destruction of the EU is a prerequisite to socialism in europe. It literally exists to be neoliberal and prevent it.
Here’s the monthly hexbear yankee weirdly pro-eu post
Hope every country leaves the EU
Edit: And the weirdly pro-eu communist replies
The EU is a neoliberal abomination. Leaving the EU to get blue passports and do more racism is not going to improve things though. European countries are too small to be on their own against the powers of capital as the rapid dismantling of living standards for common people in Terf Island post-Brexit shows. It seems like the viable alternative to the EU is some kind of pro-worker European community that doesn’t exist yet.
That’s not the only thing leaving the EU allows for, anything that happens in the UK now is entirely the fault of UK politicians, there’s not the EU scapegoat (which is a real scapegoat) anymore which means brits are in a better position to actually change things politically and exercise their sovereignty than any EU country, and that dismantling of standards that is happening in the UK is happening elsewhere in the EU too, except here in EU countries politics can’t actually be about changing that since it explicitly means going against european institutions.
Yeah, which is not the EU. I’m just being facetious when I say I hope everybody leaves I know it’s more complicated than leaving and staying, but what the comments here told me is that some, hopefully not european, leftists really think the european working class is better off with the EU than they would be if they fought it. SAD!!!
I grant that there is an argument to be made for the accelerationist potential of Brexit. We have seen some really impressive strikes and I wouldn’t be surprised if more and more Brits are losing faith in the Westminster parties being able and willing to improve things.
Good things could come from this but declining standards of living, a sclerotic and undemocratic political system combined with emboldened racism also has the potential to lead to fascism.
Yeah, it’s a scapegoat, and it will continue to be a scapegoat for the exact same reasons - see article above
Doesn’t disprove my point, the government can still blame the EU all it wants it won’t work as well as it does in EU countries
huh?
If in, say, Portugal you want to invest more in healthcare (or apply any radical policy) the government can say “the european comission won’t approve this budget so we can’t do this!”, and that’s true, the budget would get rejected by the EC and you’d have to come up with a new one, and since “the EU is always right” in countries like these everyone will just bow their heads and go “ok guess the government can’t do this thing everyone wants them to do” this is how european politics actually work
Now if you remove the EU, which is an untouchable far-away institution, you have your national government, which is a closer less-untouchable institution.
Which can still blame things on those darned eurocrats and their disdain for the island of albion, as seen above and in other examples. Do we have different definitions of what a scapegoat is? I understand it as an entity that isn’t at fault for whatever bad thing but is made to look like one
The EU has pretty much zilch enforcement mechanisms for anything. Any they do have is political power, not bureaucratic power.
YES THAT’S WHY IT’S INSANE FOR COMMUNISTS TO BE DEFENDING IT LIKE THIS.
If it shoots down the budget a pro-eu government will always respect that decision because the pro-eu population (which is the majority in EVERY EU country) will agree with that, and if they don’t they’ll blame the EU and not their governments, so it’s always a useful scapegoat.
Political power matters and that “any power” is doing a lot, you haven’t dealt with this people, the EU is the chief obstacle for there to be a working class political movement in europe, and defending it because you’re an “antifascist” is insane.
I was thinking that last paragraph was unfair misrepresentation, then I read two more comments…
It is objectively funny when right wing people get the thing they asked for and then complain about it.
I agree but there was a lot of leftist support for brexit
irrelevant, are they the ones that drove it forward, or the ones currently yapping?
I’m yapping
The EU is crap but it not existing isn’t the better alternative tbh. I think way more EU countries would fall to fascism if the EU stopped existing, I’d take neoliberal bureaucrats over my local fascists any time.
On the flip side, consider how far the rest of the world advanced after Europe imploded itself in the 20th century. Perhaps we’d all be better off if the EU imploded again and the US followed thereafter.
You are completely wrong, this is equivalent to supporting the democrats and “anti-fascistly” voting for biden.
I mean, yeah kinda. I’d rather live under liberalism than under fascism, I’m not an accelerationist.
I’m sorry brother when I see you use those 3 words in the same sentence I can’t help but feel like politics is just an internet game to you, you’re not an “accelerationist” you’re probably nothing. Good luck
So uh what am I to do here exactly to be the One True Leftist in Europe according to you? My only local real leftist org is kinda crap (I’ve seen for myself), leftism in Europe in general is extremely weak, save for Greece and maybe France, and that’s a big maybe.
If EU liberalism gets deposed it’s not gonna get any better here and my life and the lives of many of my loved ones is gonna get a lot worse, why the fuck would I cheer that on exactly?
I’m not telling you what to do I’m telling you you’re wrong about the EU “stopping fascism”
But if I WERE telling you what to do, I’d say join that one and hopefully talk to people in real life. It’s better than thinking about things like “accelerationism”
It’s not stopping fascism, it’s just a better state of affairs than fascism, literally the “lesser evil”. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I did. Some people were cool, some sucked, the org itself is irreparably poisoned by petty infighting tho.
Maybe do something similar yourself instead of tut-tutting people about not posting enough
emojis on hexbear.net
Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize you were making a a “lesser evil” argument, very astute point I’ll defend the EU (hitler’s wet dream) now as the only alternative to fascism
Very silly thing to say, I don’t care about emojis I replied to opinions here which I disagreed with, if I had agreed with them I wouldn’t have
Neoliberal bureaucrats create conditions for fascists.
They always have. Doesn’t mean they’re not preferable to the actual fascists considering how abysmal the state of the left is in the EU right now.
Living on terf island I couldn’t agree more. Fuck the EU, soft brexit would’ve been fine. Like, not great but still not the living hell that has been occurring since hard brexit.
Either way destruction of the EU is a prerequisite to socialism in europe. It literally exists to be neoliberal and prevent it.
I am not a yankee nor am I pro EU but go off king
Tbf it was much easier for the UK to leave the EU since they still had their own currency, it will be much harder for countries that took the euro.
Yep. But it’s either that or perpetual austerity, were I greek in 2015 I would’ve taken the temporary catastrophe over the infinite suffering