As negotiations get underway at COP28, we compiled a list of the leading research documenting the connection between meat and greenhouse gas emissions.
What’s your take on a meat eater with a net-zero or net-negative carbon footprint? The same? What about a vegan that has to drive to work and can’t quite get their carbon footprint to zero? Which one is better, the climate-hurting vegan or the climate-helping non-vegan?
I would tell the meat eater that going vegan would further reduce their climate impact and the vegan that commuting less would further reduce their climate impact
So your take was to dodge the entire question. Ironically, I had a discussion about how I expected you to answer this question in another thread, and you did not disappoint.
Wouldn’t both of those scenarios be better outcomes than a meat eater that doesn’t care about reducing their carbon contributions at all? The vegan with a long commute is better than a meat eater with a long commute, ecologically. And if a meat eater can reduce their carbon in other ways, then that’s certainly a better situation than if they didn’t reduce it at all.
Personally, I still eat meat, but I try to reduce my beef consumption the most, since that’s the biggest emitter.
Wouldn’t both of those scenarios be better outcomes than a meat eater that doesn’t care about reducing their carbon contributions at all?
Better outcomes in terms of what? If we only focus on the environment, then the only thing that matters is total environmental impact. While intelligently choosing your foods may reduce the environmental impact of your diet, naively reducing meat eating alone simply doesn’t.
Disagreeing only slightly with Dr. Hannah Ritchie from OurWorldInData (steelmanning the less-meat side IMO), transport arguably counts for J>7% of the environmental impact of food, so eating locally-sourced chicken every day is clearly better than ordering out from the vegan joint every day, especially after accounting for the caloric quality.
I asked the previous commentor for takes on the specific scenario to start to depolarize her position. Many vegans here have this polar position, and won’t stand beside me as an environmental advocate because I don’t agree with them on quitting meat being a necessary or even good environmental decision. Challenging her with the decision of what’s environmentally right and what’s “morally right” (to her) is a form of deprogramming. It usually fails especially online, but I still do it.
You perhaps can see why it is important to help give and get context from people in that situation?
The strongest environmental advocates I know are small-town farmers in rural-but-liberal areas. But approximately zero of them are vegans. I still want them fighting for the environment.
EDIT: I saw your update. The irony is that your graph comes from the same article I was referring to myself. There is an argument in the vacuum if you focus on beef-herd and lamb only (but you have to understand those are world averages and the methane production from cattle in most countries is a lot lower than that number)… but I’d like to point out that 1kg of poultry is simply a superior food product to 1kg of rice. Eggs are arguably the perfect food for those not allergic to them (like me). Replacing many crops with egg-laying chickens is a no-brainer from that graph (and sorry, but you DO get some chicken meat in every egg coop if you’re being efficient).
It’s not just about GHGs. It’s also habitat destruction, loss of biodiversity, manure runoff infecting nearby veggies, all the extra land dedicated to growing crops just for animal ag.
And there’s answers to all the “it’s about…”'s. Of the ones you listed, only the first two would even need answering since the last two are largely fabricated issues.
Nobody is growing crops “for livestock”. 86% of what they eat are inedible waste, and the other 14% are things they are being grown anyway. The most common two feed crops, corn and soy, are being grown for a different part of the crop to be used for industrial purposes. Yes, they feed a little edible corn to cows shortly before slaughter to maximize the return and quality of meat. Nobody is waiting in line for that corn because it’s terrible and non-nutiritious calories for humans. If you suddenly passed a law that forced us to euthenize all the cows and threatened us with prison time if we ate meat, those same crops would be grown only to be destroyed in ways that are just as bad (or worse) for the environment as feeding to animals
Thank you for invalidating the first two arguments by tying them to a propagandist’s fantasy. Nobody will ever change a zealous vegan’s view, but anyone else that reads this will realize all the coercion to quit meat has nothing to do with valid environmental concerns.
What’s your take on a meat eater with a net-zero or net-negative carbon footprint? The same? What about a vegan that has to drive to work and can’t quite get their carbon footprint to zero? Which one is better, the climate-hurting vegan or the climate-helping non-vegan?
I would tell the meat eater that going vegan would further reduce their climate impact and the vegan that commuting less would further reduce their climate impact
So your take was to dodge the entire question. Ironically, I had a discussion about how I expected you to answer this question in another thread, and you did not disappoint.
Removed by mod
I reported you. I’m blocking you. Please go back to reddit.
🎵🎵co-ping, coping and seething 🎵🎵
Wouldn’t both of those scenarios be better outcomes than a meat eater that doesn’t care about reducing their carbon contributions at all? The vegan with a long commute is better than a meat eater with a long commute, ecologically. And if a meat eater can reduce their carbon in other ways, then that’s certainly a better situation than if they didn’t reduce it at all.
Personally, I still eat meat, but I try to reduce my beef consumption the most, since that’s the biggest emitter.
Better outcomes in terms of what? If we only focus on the environment, then the only thing that matters is total environmental impact. While intelligently choosing your foods may reduce the environmental impact of your diet, naively reducing meat eating alone simply doesn’t.
Disagreeing only slightly with Dr. Hannah Ritchie from OurWorldInData (steelmanning the less-meat side IMO), transport arguably counts for J>7% of the environmental impact of food, so eating locally-sourced chicken every day is clearly better than ordering out from the vegan joint every day, especially after accounting for the caloric quality.
I asked the previous commentor for takes on the specific scenario to start to depolarize her position. Many vegans here have this polar position, and won’t stand beside me as an environmental advocate because I don’t agree with them on quitting meat being a necessary or even good environmental decision. Challenging her with the decision of what’s environmentally right and what’s “morally right” (to her) is a form of deprogramming. It usually fails especially online, but I still do it.
You perhaps can see why it is important to help give and get context from people in that situation?
The strongest environmental advocates I know are small-town farmers in rural-but-liberal areas. But approximately zero of them are vegans. I still want them fighting for the environment.
EDIT: I saw your update. The irony is that your graph comes from the same article I was referring to myself. There is an argument in the vacuum if you focus on beef-herd and lamb only (but you have to understand those are world averages and the methane production from cattle in most countries is a lot lower than that number)… but I’d like to point out that 1kg of poultry is simply a superior food product to 1kg of rice. Eggs are arguably the perfect food for those not allergic to them (like me). Replacing many crops with egg-laying chickens is a no-brainer from that graph (and sorry, but you DO get some chicken meat in every egg coop if you’re being efficient).
It’s not just about GHGs. It’s also habitat destruction, loss of biodiversity, manure runoff infecting nearby veggies, all the extra land dedicated to growing crops just for animal ag.
And there’s answers to all the “it’s about…”'s. Of the ones you listed, only the first two would even need answering since the last two are largely fabricated issues.
Last one is directly connected to the first two lol
“lol”.
Nobody is growing crops “for livestock”. 86% of what they eat are inedible waste, and the other 14% are things they are being grown anyway. The most common two feed crops, corn and soy, are being grown for a different part of the crop to be used for industrial purposes. Yes, they feed a little edible corn to cows shortly before slaughter to maximize the return and quality of meat. Nobody is waiting in line for that corn because it’s terrible and non-nutiritious calories for humans. If you suddenly passed a law that forced us to euthenize all the cows and threatened us with prison time if we ate meat, those same crops would be grown only to be destroyed in ways that are just as bad (or worse) for the environment as feeding to animals
Thank you for invalidating the first two arguments by tying them to a propagandist’s fantasy. Nobody will ever change a zealous vegan’s view, but anyone else that reads this will realize all the coercion to quit meat has nothing to do with valid environmental concerns.
Thank you for winning my argument for me.