@pingveno@lemmy.ml It saddens me to read this accusation.

Remember when the lab leak was “conspiracy theory” and racist against Asians. Then the funding documents of the nature of the work at Wuhan comes out. Talking about lab leak was misinformation, until the evidence was overwhelming that it was a strong possibility. Isn’t it in all of our interest to find out if a lab was responsible so we can fix the problem?

What happens when authorities can just say misinformation, present no evidence and silence dissent?

Why the fear of an idea? I thought this was a leftist server? I genuinely came here to have cool conversations and have been so surprised at the level of penetration that this “anti-vax” fever has gotten here.

Whats the fear? That people won’t comply? How about instead of mandates they give us choice and information. Instead of censorship, they persuade us with evidence and transperancy.

I’m prepared for the moment when I come to log onto this server running Free and Open Source Software and my account has been deleted. It’s sad we can’t freely express ourselves. I don’t think I’m being unreasonable, or harassing, or trolling and I’m certainly not engaging in personal attacks.

whyam I not allowed to question the public health policy that vaccines are the ONLY way out of this. It seems so obvious to me that that is false. There are early treatments that can be used ALONGSIDE vaccines.

I understand that vaccines may lessen severity of symptoms, but it is well doumented that they don’t stop the spread or infection.

I think the vaccines are a technical marvel, we are biologically programming our cells to produce spike protein to stimulate an immune response against the virus. But why not early treatment as well?

I hope you take me at my word that I am not maliciously spreading misinformation, but genuinely inquiring and trying to reason through this crazy situation we are all in.

I wish instead of hostile responses a good faith engagement of ideas could be had. It’s possible I’m wrong. It’s also possible you are. How can we ever figure that out if we use the blunt instrument of censorship/banning?

I hope you don’t ban me, but I’m not going to self censor. I hope you read the full thread and see that at no point did I promote Ivermectin in preference of vaccines, nor vaccines in preference of ivermection.

I figure we are all adults and can make up our individual minds and take responsibility for our own actions and should treat each other with mutual respect. I don’t understand all the banning…

You’re a crank and should be banned

Interesting mantra.

Anyway, I’d say this is a complex situation and there is some validity in your point of view and mine as well. I think it was a mistake to censor, smear early treatment and fire people even if they had acquired immunity. Seems cruel to me.

I also think it is cruel to deny people early treatment due to gov edict instead of allowing doctors to treat their patients how they see fit.

I think the policy of turning people away from the hospital until symptoms worsened instead of using early treatments was a massive mistake.

I don’t pretend to have absolute infallible knowledge and wouldn’t advocate for censorship as the princple of free speech is precisely tested during strong disagreement.

are trying to insulate yourself from criticism with grandiose claims of rights to free speech and not being dehumanized

I personally would advise you not be so casually contemptous of those principles. I’m not trying to insulate myself from criticism. Only one of us has expressed a desire that the other be censored.

bad faith interpretation

I don’t think it’s constructive to assume the motives of others

you erroneously concluded it shouldn’t be administered,

That’s a nice strawman you got there

*and *made an incorrect bad faith interpretation about “claims” associated with the promises of the vaccine that aren’t attributed to real people or based on an honest accounting of cause and effect of which forces drove the pandemic.

President, head of CDC, head of NIAID didn’t say on tv it would prevent infection? Was that memory holed already?

You’re a crank and you should be banned.

You trying to build a safe space where no one disagrees?

I’m speaking sincerely and not in bad faith. I’m concerend by the amount of power gov is trying to get via mandates and the transfer of wealth that is happening due to shutdowns.

It’s an honest diagreement, but if you want to assume I have negative motives, nothing I can do about that.

I personally don’t want anyone censored and think humanity thrieves when we can have difficult conversations out in the open.

You’re an antivax crank.

It’s just a difference of opinion, calm down internet friend. Let’s not dehumanize one another over an opinion regarding a pharma product. I’m not advocating for anyone to be restricted from getting the vax if they want it. I’m just pointing out it doesn’t stop spread or infection and early treatment exists.

The website you cite with 75 studies does not recommend ivermectin as a replacement for vaccines.

That wasn’t the point. The point is that there are studies showing the IVM is effective a preventing and treating Covid infection.

The news article you cite, contrary to your claims, does not claim a 4th booster is “ineffective.”

Fair point, they do say less effective.

“The vaccines, which were more effective against previous variants, offer less protection versus omicron."

When you have a product with garanteed sales backwed by gov enforce mandates, this tends to happen. I sincerely wish the vaccines would have worked at preventing infection and spread, but they have failed. Even so, the tax money will stay in those bank accounts vs fund improvements in the respective societies.

Here is latest observational study showing efficacy of Ivermectin: https://www.cureus.com/articles/82162-ivermectin-prophylaxis-used-for-covid-19-a-citywide-prospective-observational-study-of-223128-subjects-using-propensity-score-matching

Not enough? Here are 75 other studies: https://ivmmeta.com/

The data is out there. It’s not “magical thinking” induced by fear. If anything, I’d say people considering a 4th or 5th booster are engaging in fear induced reasoning, in my opinion, literally being coerced by the state to comply or lose their ability to provide for themselves and their family.

New study from Isreal acknowledges 4th booster is ineffective at preventing infection from omicron: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/israel-study-4th-vaccine-shows-limited-results-omicron-82312196

So now the vaccine narrative is shifting from “it will stop the pandemic” to “its llike a flu shot”.

How can anyone justify denying early treatment works, reducing access to the early treatments in favor of mandating a product that does not work as promised?

We should make everything available and let patient/doctor decided, not a one-size fits all mandate and censorship of any questioning of authorities (who have been dramatically wrong over and over).

they literally fabricate stories

As far as I am aware, they have not lost a lawsuit going after publishers who have printed such accusations. Can you point me to one of their fabrications you allege?

Are you saying the DOD report they talk about is fake?

you have lost all credibility by linking to Project Veritas

I personally like to keep things about the information/data and not engage in guilt by association, or “everyone knows” types of arguments. That doesn’t help bring clarity. I’m arguing in good faith and found it revealing that internal DOD report acknowledges what admin is denying so vehmently in their push for more power over us by the government.

I expose myself to broad specturm of information and don’t dismiss things simply because of the messenger.

This is true. I was incorrect. I guess my point is that it’s the first time humans are doing it to humans.

[edit] Further clarification: First time we are selecting/designing mRNA vs an occurance in nature.

Thankfully Supreme Court struck down the employeer mandates for private companies.

I think anyone who wants the vax should get it and anyone who doesn’t shouldn’t be forced to do it.

We should embrace the vaccine AND early treatment, not shove a one size fits all medical strategy down everyones throats.

[edit] spelling

I appreciate your considered response.

I agree that the “elites” are not fully in control, but by god are they trying. I don’t trust this massive gov/corporate alliance that is pushing something under the threat of talking away rights and creating second class citizens. It went from 95% effective to 30 someting, from 1 shot to 1 jab to 2 to 3, from break-through cases to finally admitting the efficacy wanes and vax does not stop the spread. Mandates are not justified.

Now a new DOD internal report from a year ago recognizes the various early treatments and the possibility of lab-leak. Even that it’s a POSSIBILITY should have everyone scrambling to determine what happened to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Instead, the leadership publicly calls it a “conspiracy-theory” but privately talks about it in a more somber way.

(I hope I don’t trigger to many ppl by linking to project veritas, but please consider the message and documents. I link so you don’t just need to take my word for it: https://www.projectveritas.com/news/military-documents-about-gain-of-function-contradict-fauci-testimony-under/)

Pandemic policy of sending ppl home until symptoms worsen vs giving Ivermectin or Fluvoxomine or monoclonol anti-bodies to help slow viral replication. Choosing mandates instead of public health messaging presenting all the real options and risks so that ppl can make up their own minds. Denying ppl medications, like Ivermectin, on the WHO list of essential drugs, with over 40 years of use in humans with an excellent safety record. Why?

Then there is the censorship. The coordinated messaging of: misinformation, anti-vax, conspiracy-theory, that language is harmful! It’s so patronizing, as if though ppl can’t think for themselves, they need corporate overloards to curate ideas that can be considered. And they censor experts in the field of virology, congressional testimony, talking about early treatment.

Lab leak was a bat s$%t crazy conspiracy theory… then the Eco Health alliance grant from NIH and the specifics came out… maybe not so crazy after all. Should it be censored? What if it is true that some beurocrats went against all the warnings and funded this dangerous research and MAYBE led to this pandemic? Shouldn’t we be talking about that?

If there has ever been evidence of elite coordination across media, social media, gov and corporations, public social control propaganda strategies, this is the starkest example of it, what we are currently living through

Anyway… I’m just concerned. I enjoy the freedom I have and want to make sure every American (ideally every human) has the right to choose for themselves: What they can say (within reason), what ideas they can consider, what medications they take, where they go, whether or not they want to put a mask on their kids, etc…

I don’t trust this corporate/gov alliance that has brought us endless war, terrible healthcare and education, and I don’t want to give them more power.

There are elites, and they are coordinating.

You may ask, but I don’t disclose personal medical information as a rule. Why do you ask?

Disease is scary. Pandemics are scary. I understand the fear. But corporate media is cranking it up, from president Biden talking about a winter of death, to the death counters… slowly alot of lies are being uncovered… counting hospitalized WITH covid vs FROM covid, Pfizer ceo admitting vax don’t work (to sell the new one of course)

If you listen to Hitler’s rhetoric that whipped up the Germans to dehumanize their Jewish neighbors, it had a lot to do with disease, and Goebbels talks alot about using fear to control a population. It’s why Mass formation Psychoses is being talked about now

the pro-vax / anti-vax dichotomy is just the ruling elite engineering classic divide and conquer, manipulating us at any opportunity to attack each other so we don’t see the massive transfer of wealth into the pockets of transnational corporations

I mean just look at this thread. A comment telling me to cough myself to death and calling me a rat (Echoes of Hitler’s anti-jew rhetoric) for not trusting massive corporations that have been fined BILLIONS for lying about their products to us in the past has several up votes. That level of dehumanization/rage/hatred is the goal of a massive propaganda machine pointed at us right now.

So I disagree that society has agreed to this. This is a manufactured perception that the majority blindly trust the Corporate/Gov alliance. It is not real. The evidence is in that they have to censor. Because the truth can shatter the illusion they are constructing.

They censor doctors, congressional testimony, saying only they ARE Truth and Science and questioning them is not allowed. They know they are the minority which is why they seed that censorious desire in those who are easily manipulated. “Don’t let them talk! Their words are dangerous and harmful! Anti-vaxxer! Misinformation!”

They amplify the fear, reminding us at every turn that the threat is in the air we breath and they are using it to take away our rights and turn us against one another.

That’s why I’m marching on 1/23

My point is this is the first time we are using mRNA to program our cells to produce spike. Previous vaccines took the entire virus either attenuated or dead to stimulate the immune response.

This is the first time we are using an mRNA snippet to program our cells to make a specific protein.

So no, factually you are incorrect. This is not “exactly” how viruses work.

Risk management aside, it’s an amazing technology. We are biologically programming human cells.

imagine being so ignorant you think that a vaccine is a 100% catch all.

I agree. That was very ignorant of the director of the CDC and US Pres Biden to say it prevents infection to justify the initial push for mandates.

On an unrelated side note: I think the mRNA technology is freaking cool and I hope we can put it to more good use in the future.

A thing that worries me about it is that it is using your cell to express the spike protein. Effectively, “you” are making something to be attacked by your immune system as “other”.

Alot of the adverse effects show that the body is attacking itself, as is typical with autoimmune issues, like arthritis.

The immune system being a complex system, it just seems a reckless to push forward with this in all age groups with only just over a year of safety data with humans.

I hope everything will be just fine, but I’m not reassure by the censorship, mandates and liability waiver for big pharma

I see big pharma, fined billions of dollars for literally lying about product safety to make profit.

I see corporate sponsored gov that lied us into Iraq war, Afghanistan war, denies us universal healthcare and education, has record numbers in prisons and homeless. Conducts covert actions to destabilize democratically elected govs they don’t like

I see this big pharma, big gov and big tech unite to force their product into ppl, a process that can not be reversed, under threat of not being able to work or eat in a restaurant unless you comply.

I see censorship of doctors, one who even has patents regarding the mRNA tech.

I see denial of early treatment. Hospitals sending ppl home until symptoms worsen.

Only signal we have for problems with vaccines, VAERS, is going off the charts.

You want to ignore all that? Fine, your choice. I see a big problem here and I’m just stating my opinion. I won’t assume anything about your character or attack you personally. I don’t see the value in treating ppl that way.

I’m fine having a disagreement with someone else and don’t take it too personally.

But it seems you are too ideologically blinded to engage with normal scientific arguments :(

Lets not resort to making assumptions about one another or accusing each other of being ideologically blinded. That line of ad-hominem argumentation leads no where productive. I’m arguing the material you linked and citing evidence.

You think using VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System) to talk about vaccine adverse events is misinformation, and I disagree.

From article: “Unfortunately, the anti-vaccine movement has used this once-obscure database to spread misinformation about the COVID-19 vaccine.”

“Consequently, VAERS reports might not only document people’s negative experiences with vaccination, but also their attitudes toward vaccination.”

“VAERS data could be seen as something of a double-edged sword. On one hand, it has been weaponized by the anti-vaccine movement and political actors on the right to sow doubt and distrust about COVID-19 vaccinations.”

Claims of “misinformation” without debate/evidence is just cover for corporate censorship.

The entire piece reads like corporate pharma propaganda I can summaries as: “Nothing to see here folks. Bunch of right-wing loonies, am I right? These vaccines are safe and effective.”

It’s not just complaining about possible right-wing media data distortion, but casting doubt in the VARES system itself, which is the only signal we have for vaccine problems at the moment.

I don’t agree that mistrust of big pharma is solely a right-wing thing. Big pharma has lied, often.

Fined $8 Billion for bribing doctors to up sales of Oxycontin: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oxycontin-drugmaker-purdue-pharma-pleads-guilty-federal-criminal-charges-n1244155

Fined $2.1 Billion for illegal marketing of products later pulled from the market for not being safe: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pfizer-fined-23-billion-illegal-marketing-off-label/story?id=8477617

$5 Billion settlement for a product that cause heart attacks and obstructing data to make profits: https://www.npr.org/series/5033105/vioxx-the-downfall-of-a-drug

$4.69 Billion verdict for women who developed cancer from using talcum powder, and pharma company knew and hid data: https://www.consumernotice.org/products/personal-care/talcum-powder/cancer/

Now they have this vaccine product, funded by federal gov to develop, and making record profits for themselves and their companies (https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/business/covid-vaccine-billionaires/index.html) and it’s some how an anti-vax conspiracy to doubt their assurances of safety?

VAERS was made in 1990 to detect problems with vaccinations for a reason. They have had more events logged since release of these vaccines than all previous years, combined. It is also a felony to file false VAERS reports, so it’s not a simple google form or some such thing.

The vaccines do not stop the spread or infection. They said they would. They lied. They said they were 95% effective. They lied. Now we need booster 3… soon it will be four, all the while the corporate billionaires are making obscene profits. They said lock downs where for 2 weeks. They lied. They said they wouldn’t mandate, that it was not in the power of gov to do so. Biden and Harris said this. They lied.

They say the miocarditis in children it might cause is “mild”. There is no such thing as mild damage to heart tissues. Any damage to heart tissues is dangerous considering the heart scars rather then regenerates.

Now evidence is emerging that it effects women’s menstrual cycles: https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Wellness/covid-19-vaccine-linked-small-menstrual-cycles-study/story?id=82134301

Of course corporate media says it’s no big deal (sponsored by Pfizer).

Point is they over promised and under delivered, by any measure. And then there is the censorship and mandates on top of it all.

Pointing this out and saying it’s sus is not “right-wing” but what is a traditional left position of doubting corrupt gov/corporate fascist lies.