Cute, and forgive me for getting serious in a humor thread, but I can’t stand how the term “incel” has come to functionally mean “any guy who exhibits entitlement towards women.” I’m not blaming OP for this nor really anyone else, it’s just a disappointing thing that’s happened in society IMO. Incel started as a term for men who felt depressed about being unable to find a female partner, and the subreddit they created was originally a supportive space for them. Then it got taken over by angry misogynists and the term became associated with them, while the original group just kind of got forgotten about. That original group deserves attention and empathy as well as the term they coined; the latter group isn’t even “involuntarily celibate,” as they play a very big role in their own celibacy.
Anyway, sorry for ruining the mood if I have, I just think more people should give some thought to who that term originally belonged to.
Internet history pedantry, but by the time the subreddit rolled around, the term and the movement had already been coopted.
Incel started as a term for men who felt depressed about being unable to find a female partner, and the subreddit they created was originally a supportive space for them.
The term was coined somewhere between 1994 and 1997 by “Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project” as a term for people of all genders who were unable to find partnership despite trying. Alana is a woman, and is effectively universally credited with coining the term and founding the movement. It wasn’t for men, the term wasn’t about men, and it didn’t start on Reddit. It started off as more of a personal blog, where Alana documented her own experiences and struggles - the site gained followers from other people with similar experiences, eventually growing into a combined forum / support group / community.
Then it got taken over by angry misogynists and the term became associated with them, while the original group just kind of got forgotten about. That original group deserves attention and empathy as well as the term they coined; the latter group isn’t even “involuntarily celibate,” as they play a very big role in their own celibacy.
Those folks have kind of always been there, and have always been a heavily represented demographic - Alana has said in interviews that the men who joined in the early days did have some concerning views and some concerning themes were on frequent repeitition in the discussions the community had. I don’t think retconning the movement to exclude those people from the “true definition” is doing either camp any favours. The “involuntary” part of the label isn’t trying to engage with whether or not the barrier may stem from factors within their control, but solely confined to the fact that they want something and are not getting it. They are simply “celibate, but not voluntarily celibate”.
One quip that Alana made in several interviews while defining her modelling of the community she founded was that she didn’t care why someone was an incel, ie “it’s OK if you’re celibate because you’re into horses, but that’s illegal” that that person should still be welcomed and included in the community.
I just think more people should give some thought to who that term originally belonged to.
I think that in light of this, it’s even more important to be accurate and honest who those people are: Not male-exclusive, not limited to this or that cause of celibacy, not specifically gatekeeping out the misogynists or the beastialists any more than any other group. Just any people who want to get laid but are not getting laid.
The misogyny incels have is based on the “a slut is a girl that’ll fuck anyone, a bitch is a girl that’ll fuck anyone but you”. I guess I can kinda commiserate that if every girl I asked out said no, I might get a pretty bad attitude. I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s understandable.
Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson. I have a hard time believing that all of even just most of the men that initially joined her group had “concerning views” if that’s meant to refer to the misogyny we see in those most associated with the term today, but I do know that plenty of the posters I saw on the subreddit years ago when I visited were not of that ilk.
I’m not sure I agree with you though about how the term should be used. I see your point, but I think if the term was originally coined to represent people who were genuinely suffering from external circumstances that put them in the position they’re in, it should remain for them and not those who sabotage themselves via their own toxic behavior. Even if this Alana you mentioned feels otherwise, I still stand by that. People who feel entitled to sex from the people they’re attracted to are not celibate involuntarily in the same way that people who aren’t that way are. One group deserves empathy and compassion; the other deserves scorn and derision. I don’t think it’s productive or fair to the former group to use the same term for both.
But it wasn’t coined to express some unfortunate external circumstances; it was to express any circumstances. And the most misogynistic of incels still believes they are being mistreated due to external circumstances. She even gave the example of someone who wants to fuck horses as part of the core.
I understand feeling empathy to those who are lacking intimacy or romance because of an unfortunate circumstance beyond their control, like a profound disformity. I can also appreciate wanting to support that group but not the larger set that self identify as incels. But there is no salvaging what has long been a group of antisocial people fostering the same dangerously hostile worldview in others.
I have a hard time believing that all of even just most of the men that initially joined her group had “concerning views” if that’s meant to refer to the misogyny we see in those most associated with the term today, but I do know that plenty of the posters I saw on the subreddit years ago when I visited were not of that ilk.
That’s fine, but remember you’re doubting the one person unique qualified to talk about the developmental history of the movement that they launched from the site that they ran.
I don’t think that it necessarily was “all” or “most” but simply that the male presence within the movement was sufficiently represented by individuals with those views that it’s one of the first thing she mentions in the context of discussing the growth of the movement itself.
Part of her point seems to be pointing out that they invited those views in, very early in the movement, out of a desire to be inclusive - only to be driven out by those views later on down the road.
I bring that up in this context because I don’t think that the movement or the term can be divorced fully from the male misogyny that it’s associated with today. Those people are not latecomers to the label, they’ve been there effectively from the start - from the point where it went from the comments section of Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project blog, to becoming “a community” centered around a shared label.
but I think if the term was originally coined to represent people who were genuinely suffering from external circumstances that put them in the position they’re in, it should remain for them and not those who sabotage themselves via their own toxic behavior.
I’ve used bold to highlight it in the quote above - that is a big “if” that the person who coined the term says is not true. If it were true, we’d be having a different conversation. But it’s not true.
The simple fact is that it’s a self-identifier. It’s a label that people put on themselves based on their perception of their own life circumstances. The original vision for the term says that neither you nor I get to tell anyone else they’re “not a true incel” or to go over their life and tell them the barriers are self-inflicted if they don’t see it that way. I guarantee you that the people you want to exclude from the term do very genuinely believe that they are “suffering from external circumstances that put them in the position they’re in.” No matter how much your or I might see them and think they’re clearly suffering from self-inflicted wounds, they are entirely sincere in their belief that their dating life is out of their control and has been a victim of cruel society.
One group deserves empathy and compassion; the other deserves scorn and derision. I don’t think it’s productive or fair to the former group to use the same term for both.
To me? They’re the same group. Some members of the group are hateful and shitty. Some members of the group aren’t. I’d say that the overwhelming majority of members, from both sides of that divider, are experiencing obstacles to dating or sex that are self-inflicted, even if they also have other barriers that are not. The vast majority of both groups would tell you that their personal circumstances are wholly out of their own control.
The “logic” that group uses around attractiveness and dating marketability and how this or that facet of looks or wealth or social status or whatever is ultimately spurious. If Ricky Berwick get rich, famous, and married - the absolute hard impassible barriers that incels talk about affecting themselves simply do not exist.
The term was always cringy because it’s putting the lack of sex in a vacuum and completely ignoring the relevant factors.
I was there when /r9k/ was born so I feel like I got a good first hand look at how this modern incel ideology developed. The people you are describing need a better term and that’s been true from the very beginning.
It stands for “involuntary celibate.” I’m not sure I agree that it started out “innocent,” though. I’ve yet to meet someone who identified as an incel that didn’t at least partially blame women for the situation they were in.
I heard about it early on and actually went to visit the sub out of curiosity when it was still somewhat innocent. There were definitely misogynistic posts there already, but plenty of innocent ones as well that didn’t blame women for the outcome. I remember later on there was even a post made by one of the mods about how he was retiring from the sub, because it had been taken over by the misogynists and no longer served the purpose it was intended to. I would bet you have met men that qualify under the original definition, but who don’t identify with the label now because of what it’s come to be associated with.
Just like how r/fph wasn’t originally about hating on obese but really pointing out the flaws in logic they use to justify over eating. But we all know what it turned to which got it banned. I’m not sure it was ever as bad as the admins claimed…I think it was more to set an example.
It’s a misnomer mate… Like how r/trees isn’t about trees and r/tiktokcringe isn’t about anything cringy.
Fph was originally about the broken logic used. Not about hating fat people. Not to say it didn’t turn into that and the misnomer sub name surely didn’t help.
No prob! Yeah, it’s kinda sad–I’ll bet you’re not the only one who doesn’t know about this, because the shitty misogynist group completely stole the spotlight from the original.
While it is sad that the terms meaning has changed to something so disgusting: It is what is now. It makes no sense now to act like it still has the old meaning but I agree that it is a good idea to think about the topic as a whole.
It makes no sense now to act like it still has the old meaning
I mean, yes, there’s no sense in refusing to acknowledge the present association, but the meanings of words can change, and it isn’t impossible for the term ‘incel’ to return to it’s former meaning if enough people are made aware of its history.
I thought it was actually a lesbian woman who started the first incel group? Either way yeah it’s interesting because as usual, there are people who are wronged (or treated unfairly) by society, and people who wrong society and then feel wronged because of natural consequences.
That would certainly be interesting if that’s actually the case! I visited the subreddit a long time ago out of curiosity and all the posts I saw were straight men complaining about not being able to get a girlfriend, so I dunno, but maybe. There’s certainly no reason the term can’t be used for someone regardless of gender or sexual orientation.
The first website to use the term “incel” was founded sometime between 1993 and 1997.[25][7][26] The website was created by a university student living in Toronto and known only by her first name, Alana, to discuss her sexual inactivity with others.[25] Titled “Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project”, the website was used by people of all genders to share their thoughts and experiences.[7] During 1997, she started a mailing list on the topic that used the abbreviation INVCEL, later shortened to “incel”, for “anybody of any gender who was lonely, had never had sex or who hadn’t had a relationship in a long time”.[27] During her college years and after, Alana realized she was bisexual and became more comfortable with her identity.[26] She stopped participating in her online project around 2000 and gave the site to a stranger.[28][29] In 2018, Alana said of her project: “It definitely wasn’t a bunch of guys blaming women for their problems. That’s a pretty sad version of this phenomenon that’s happening today. Things have changed in the last 20 years”. wiki
E: just seen this has already been shared, don’t mind me…
Those “hostile takeovers” and stigmatization of communities appear to happen rather often.
Like “hacker”, where the original hackers have dispersed and sought refuge as “makers” or “DIYs”, after being labelled “dangerous and malicious”.
Or “feminists”, which has become more and more synonymous for “feminazi”.
Or the whole lgbtq+ stuff, which I feel is self-inflicted, but that is likely because I’ve met one of the black sheep that every community has and which allow this exact phenomenon to happen.
But that it happens a lot, does not make it any less annoying.
It is not surprising that a community that associates and labels itself with a negative aspect of themselves would devolve into an irrational and hateful space. “Involuntary” means against one’s will, which in this context implies an entitlement to sex. No one is entitled to love and affection. And instead of working on themselves, or going outside, “incels” choose to feel bad on the internet and congregate and reinforce their beliefs when they should be meeting new people and socializing. The only social interaction they’re getting is from their classmates, many of which are physically active horny guys who are fucking lots of different girls and naturally that leads to envy. Most of these guys I guarantee are perfectly normal dudes, but they game all night as soon and they get home from school. It’s not uncommon for these guys to lose their virginity in their 20s when they start working for a living and the odds even out.
It is not surprising that a community that associates and labels itself with a negative aspect of themselves would devolve into an irrational and hateful space.
So, a community about depression or addiction is doomed to devolve into irrational hatred? I don’t think I follow your logic here.
“Involuntary” means against one’s will, which in this context implies an entitlement to sex.
??? I definitely don’t see how “involuntary” implies entitlement. It just means you want it, but for one reason or another haven’t been able to get it. Entitlement reflects the attitude that you deserve it, which I don’t think the term implies.
As for your characterization of the group, when I visited the subreddit years ago, I saw posts from men complaining about overwhelming anxiety stopping them from approaching women they were attracted to, feelings of low self-esteem or body/facial image issues, and even disabled men trying to contend with how their disabilities limited their options. You’re probably right about some of them, but definitely not all of them.
Cute, and forgive me for getting serious in a humor thread, but I can’t stand how the term “incel” has come to functionally mean “any guy who exhibits entitlement towards women.” I’m not blaming OP for this nor really anyone else, it’s just a disappointing thing that’s happened in society IMO. Incel started as a term for men who felt depressed about being unable to find a female partner, and the subreddit they created was originally a supportive space for them. Then it got taken over by angry misogynists and the term became associated with them, while the original group just kind of got forgotten about. That original group deserves attention and empathy as well as the term they coined; the latter group isn’t even “involuntarily celibate,” as they play a very big role in their own celibacy.
Anyway, sorry for ruining the mood if I have, I just think more people should give some thought to who that term originally belonged to.
Internet history pedantry, but by the time the subreddit rolled around, the term and the movement had already been coopted.
The term was coined somewhere between 1994 and 1997 by “Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project” as a term for people of all genders who were unable to find partnership despite trying. Alana is a woman, and is effectively universally credited with coining the term and founding the movement. It wasn’t for men, the term wasn’t about men, and it didn’t start on Reddit. It started off as more of a personal blog, where Alana documented her own experiences and struggles - the site gained followers from other people with similar experiences, eventually growing into a combined forum / support group / community.
Those folks have kind of always been there, and have always been a heavily represented demographic - Alana has said in interviews that the men who joined in the early days did have some concerning views and some concerning themes were on frequent repeitition in the discussions the community had. I don’t think retconning the movement to exclude those people from the “true definition” is doing either camp any favours. The “involuntary” part of the label isn’t trying to engage with whether or not the barrier may stem from factors within their control, but solely confined to the fact that they want something and are not getting it. They are simply “celibate, but not voluntarily celibate”.
One quip that Alana made in several interviews while defining her modelling of the community she founded was that she didn’t care why someone was an incel, ie “it’s OK if you’re celibate because you’re into horses, but that’s illegal” that that person should still be welcomed and included in the community.
I think that in light of this, it’s even more important to be accurate and honest who those people are: Not male-exclusive, not limited to this or that cause of celibacy, not specifically gatekeeping out the misogynists or the beastialists any more than any other group. Just any people who want to get laid but are not getting laid.
The misogyny incels have is based on the “a slut is a girl that’ll fuck anyone, a bitch is a girl that’ll fuck anyone but you”. I guess I can kinda commiserate that if every girl I asked out said no, I might get a pretty bad attitude. I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s understandable.
Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson. I have a hard time believing that all of even just most of the men that initially joined her group had “concerning views” if that’s meant to refer to the misogyny we see in those most associated with the term today, but I do know that plenty of the posters I saw on the subreddit years ago when I visited were not of that ilk.
I’m not sure I agree with you though about how the term should be used. I see your point, but I think if the term was originally coined to represent people who were genuinely suffering from external circumstances that put them in the position they’re in, it should remain for them and not those who sabotage themselves via their own toxic behavior. Even if this Alana you mentioned feels otherwise, I still stand by that. People who feel entitled to sex from the people they’re attracted to are not celibate involuntarily in the same way that people who aren’t that way are. One group deserves empathy and compassion; the other deserves scorn and derision. I don’t think it’s productive or fair to the former group to use the same term for both.
But it wasn’t coined to express some unfortunate external circumstances; it was to express any circumstances. And the most misogynistic of incels still believes they are being mistreated due to external circumstances. She even gave the example of someone who wants to fuck horses as part of the core.
I understand feeling empathy to those who are lacking intimacy or romance because of an unfortunate circumstance beyond their control, like a profound disformity. I can also appreciate wanting to support that group but not the larger set that self identify as incels. But there is no salvaging what has long been a group of antisocial people fostering the same dangerously hostile worldview in others.
That’s fine, but remember you’re doubting the one person unique qualified to talk about the developmental history of the movement that they launched from the site that they ran.
I don’t think that it necessarily was “all” or “most” but simply that the male presence within the movement was sufficiently represented by individuals with those views that it’s one of the first thing she mentions in the context of discussing the growth of the movement itself.
Part of her point seems to be pointing out that they invited those views in, very early in the movement, out of a desire to be inclusive - only to be driven out by those views later on down the road.
I bring that up in this context because I don’t think that the movement or the term can be divorced fully from the male misogyny that it’s associated with today. Those people are not latecomers to the label, they’ve been there effectively from the start - from the point where it went from the comments section of Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project blog, to becoming “a community” centered around a shared label.
I’ve used bold to highlight it in the quote above - that is a big “if” that the person who coined the term says is not true. If it were true, we’d be having a different conversation. But it’s not true.
The simple fact is that it’s a self-identifier. It’s a label that people put on themselves based on their perception of their own life circumstances. The original vision for the term says that neither you nor I get to tell anyone else they’re “not a true incel” or to go over their life and tell them the barriers are self-inflicted if they don’t see it that way. I guarantee you that the people you want to exclude from the term do very genuinely believe that they are “suffering from external circumstances that put them in the position they’re in.” No matter how much your or I might see them and think they’re clearly suffering from self-inflicted wounds, they are entirely sincere in their belief that their dating life is out of their control and has been a victim of cruel society.
To me? They’re the same group. Some members of the group are hateful and shitty. Some members of the group aren’t. I’d say that the overwhelming majority of members, from both sides of that divider, are experiencing obstacles to dating or sex that are self-inflicted, even if they also have other barriers that are not. The vast majority of both groups would tell you that their personal circumstances are wholly out of their own control.
The “logic” that group uses around attractiveness and dating marketability and how this or that facet of looks or wealth or social status or whatever is ultimately spurious. If Ricky Berwick get rich, famous, and married - the absolute hard impassible barriers that incels talk about affecting themselves simply do not exist.
The term was always cringy because it’s putting the lack of sex in a vacuum and completely ignoring the relevant factors.
I was there when /r9k/ was born so I feel like I got a good first hand look at how this modern incel ideology developed. The people you are describing need a better term and that’s been true from the very beginning.
I didn’t even know the origin of that term. That’s kinda sad, thanks for the info!
It stands for “involuntary celibate.” I’m not sure I agree that it started out “innocent,” though. I’ve yet to meet someone who identified as an incel that didn’t at least partially blame women for the situation they were in.
I heard about it early on and actually went to visit the sub out of curiosity when it was still somewhat innocent. There were definitely misogynistic posts there already, but plenty of innocent ones as well that didn’t blame women for the outcome. I remember later on there was even a post made by one of the mods about how he was retiring from the sub, because it had been taken over by the misogynists and no longer served the purpose it was intended to. I would bet you have met men that qualify under the original definition, but who don’t identify with the label now because of what it’s come to be associated with.
Just like how r/fph wasn’t originally about hating on obese but really pointing out the flaws in logic they use to justify over eating. But we all know what it turned to which got it banned. I’m not sure it was ever as bad as the admins claimed…I think it was more to set an example.
If that’s true, what does the H in the name stand for?
It’s a misnomer mate… Like how r/trees isn’t about trees and r/tiktokcringe isn’t about anything cringy.
Fph was originally about the broken logic used. Not about hating fat people. Not to say it didn’t turn into that and the misnomer sub name surely didn’t help.
No prob! Yeah, it’s kinda sad–I’ll bet you’re not the only one who doesn’t know about this, because the shitty misogynist group completely stole the spotlight from the original.
While it is sad that the terms meaning has changed to something so disgusting: It is what is now. It makes no sense now to act like it still has the old meaning but I agree that it is a good idea to think about the topic as a whole.
I mean, yes, there’s no sense in refusing to acknowledge the present association, but the meanings of words can change, and it isn’t impossible for the term ‘incel’ to return to it’s former meaning if enough people are made aware of its history.
r/ForeverAlone seems to fit the original meaning of incel
Edit: I know that sub from a friend…
Well said but as we know from reddit the bigger the community gets the shittier the community gets usually
Indeed, sad but true.
Praise spez I guess
I thought it was actually a lesbian woman who started the first incel group? Either way yeah it’s interesting because as usual, there are people who are wronged (or treated unfairly) by society, and people who wrong society and then feel wronged because of natural consequences.
That would certainly be interesting if that’s actually the case! I visited the subreddit a long time ago out of curiosity and all the posts I saw were straight men complaining about not being able to get a girlfriend, so I dunno, but maybe. There’s certainly no reason the term can’t be used for someone regardless of gender or sexual orientation.
E: just seen this has already been shared, don’t mind me…
I double checked and it was… for sure it’s been 100% co-opted by the “maniverse”, but I think it used to be a reasonably constructive community
Those “hostile takeovers” and stigmatization of communities appear to happen rather often.
Like “hacker”, where the original hackers have dispersed and sought refuge as “makers” or “DIYs”, after being labelled “dangerous and malicious”.
Or “feminists”, which has become more and more synonymous for “feminazi”.
Or the whole lgbtq+ stuff, which I feel is self-inflicted, but that is likely because I’ve met one of the black sheep that every community has and which allow this exact phenomenon to happen.
But that it happens a lot, does not make it any less annoying.
We must hang out in completely different places, it’s been years since I heard much about feminazi-type feminists
It is not surprising that a community that associates and labels itself with a negative aspect of themselves would devolve into an irrational and hateful space. “Involuntary” means against one’s will, which in this context implies an entitlement to sex. No one is entitled to love and affection. And instead of working on themselves, or going outside, “incels” choose to feel bad on the internet and congregate and reinforce their beliefs when they should be meeting new people and socializing. The only social interaction they’re getting is from their classmates, many of which are physically active horny guys who are fucking lots of different girls and naturally that leads to envy. Most of these guys I guarantee are perfectly normal dudes, but they game all night as soon and they get home from school. It’s not uncommon for these guys to lose their virginity in their 20s when they start working for a living and the odds even out.
So, a community about depression or addiction is doomed to devolve into irrational hatred? I don’t think I follow your logic here.
??? I definitely don’t see how “involuntary” implies entitlement. It just means you want it, but for one reason or another haven’t been able to get it. Entitlement reflects the attitude that you deserve it, which I don’t think the term implies.
As for your characterization of the group, when I visited the subreddit years ago, I saw posts from men complaining about overwhelming anxiety stopping them from approaching women they were attracted to, feelings of low self-esteem or body/facial image issues, and even disabled men trying to contend with how their disabilities limited their options. You’re probably right about some of them, but definitely not all of them.