- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
The woman accused of being first to spread the fake rumours about the Southport killer which sparked nationwide riots has been arrested.
Racist riots spread across the country after misinformation spread on social media claiming the fatal stabbing was carried out by Ali Al-Shakati, believed to be a fictitious name, a Muslim aslyum seeker who was on an MI6 watchlist.
A 55-year-old woman from Chester has now been arrested on suspicion of publishing written material to stir up racial hatred, and false communication. She remains in police custody.
While she has not been named in the police statement about the arrest, it is believed to be Bonnie Spofforth, a mother-of-three and the managing director of a clothing company.
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While she has not been named in the police statement about the arrest, it is believed to be Bonnie Spofforth
This, I don’t like. If you - the newspaper, the means of information - are not sure about a name you should really refrain from using it.
It would be not the first time people get their lives ruined by some careless journalist because of a namesake or just an error.
It’s not that different from “spreading rumors”.
That aside, in this case, it is probably a rumor from an inside source. Still. Not a fan.
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This. There was reports days before her arrest with her real name, it’s been known
Ironically, the reason for all this in the first place.
I’ve also said this before and I’ll say it again: names of suspects and even convicted criminals should not be shared unless necessary*. That just makes no sense for rehabilitation as it opens people up for judgement in a court of opinion. Justice is the job of the justice systems and should not generally involve the wider public.
Could there be issues with the judgement or other events where the only way to achieve justice is via the press? Sure, probably, but I don’t think the default should be that if I google the name of someone I can find if they or someone with a similar name (and god forbid, appearance) were involved in a crime.
*: unless necessary here can cover cases like trying to find an individual on the run, or when their previous crime is meant to exclude them from specific lines of work, although even that should be on a need-to-know basis imo, not public info.
Meanwhile here in Sweden, everyone’s criminal record is public, and even available to search online. Unless the crime is something minor punished with a fine. It’s really ridiculous, everything is publicly available online, like addresses, phone numbers, the cars or pets people own. Unless you have a protected identity, it’s all available to everyone online. I tried to apply for a protected identity on account of being a public servant that is involved in making decisions many people very much dislike. But I couldn’t provide a concrete threat so it was denied. It’s like the system is still geared towards pre-internet times. The system itself in fact doxxes every resident in the country.
You’re right but otherwise there are cases like child rapists that get a slap on the wrist and then go to represent a country at the Olympics
Yep. In Germany for example we don’t name perpetrators at all, neither alleged nor convicted. Newspapers are not allowed to refer to them with anything but the first name plus first letter of the last name, or initials. The only exception is when someone dangerous is on the run and they need help from the public to ID him, in that case the name is released after an ethical review board from the police force decides so (it’s mostly done on the spot without delay, but there is a procedure at the very least).
A general exception is made for persons of interest, be it celebrities, politicians or something. For general members of the public, nothing truly identifiable is released. Minors (generally below the age of 18, or people tried as minors, i.e. committed a crime while below 18 but only tried later) will not be named whatsoever; only their age and gender are released.
Race is never mentioned, unless it is a race-related hate crime.
Race is never mentioned, unless it is a race-related hate crime.
We need something like this in my country. There’s a newspaper here (il giornale) that always has headlines like
- African robs store
- African rapes girl
- Illegal alien shoplifts
- Mad African shouts in a mall
- Foreigner madness: demands food then gets mad when denied
And so on. The last (foreigner madness) is almost a catchphrase for them, if you search for “la follia dello straniero” it comes out only results from that outlet
A crime is a crime and the criminal nationality is irrelevant, unless you need to push some agenda
Social media has been weaponized and will only get worse as media conglomerates congregate further.
They literally did the same thing she got arrested for.
They know it’s her, they’re just shielding themselves from libel claims. The same way they’ll say “allegedly” until a conviction.
If they were trying to shield themselves they could have not dropped a name. This is different than saying allegedly about someone who was arrested and the name released.
True, but she also posted her lies publicly using her real name, so it isn’t as though her name isn’t already out there.
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That’s not true at all.
She literally made shit up out of nowhere with no evidence.
The website is posting actual credible information based on available evidence I.e. journalism.
Wrrrooonnngggg
But now internet people can harass her and the newspaper can make a little more money! /s
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You know what I don’t give a flying fuck about? Her being a mother of three. Why is this sympathy baiting bullshit in an article about a woman who helped incite violent racist riots all over the country?
Maybe she should have thought about her kids before being a conservative.
Being a mother of three plays against her in my mind.
She didn’t do this for her children but her own selfish reasons. Her children will suffer from her actions and therefore she is an irresponsible parent that does not consider the well being of her children.
She’s trying to ensure that her kids grow up in a more hateful and racist country, this is the legacy she’s trying to leave her children.
For me, the being a mother of three and that being mentioned just has descriptive value. It doesn’t affect my judgement of her. It just helps me place who did this in the context of society and this anecdote, for whatever that matters - haters/bigots come in all shapes and sizes of course
It’s also just commonly done in UK newspapers. Age and familial status is always given. Terry Pratchett made a joke about it in one of his books, though I can’t remember the quote.
Edit: found one (not exactly the gag I wanted but CBA to look further)
‘Exc–’ he began. But the citizen’s eyes had already detected the notebook. ‘I saw it all,’ he said. ‘Did you?’ ‘It was a ter-ri-ble scene,’ said the man, at dictation speed. ‘But the watch-man made a deathdefying plunge to res-cue the old lady and he de-serves a med-al.’ ‘Really?’ said William, scribbling fast. ‘And you are–’ ‘Sa-muel Arblaster (43), stonemason, of The Scours,’ said the man. ‘I saw it too,’ said a woman next to him, urgently. ‘Mrs Florrie Perry, blonde mother of three, from Dolly Sisters. It was a scene of car-nage.’
They never use that argument for men.
“He’s a father of 3”
They’re always coming up with an excuse.
If her kids are young, a prison sentence of the mother would be pretty heavy on them. But the judge can take that into account if they want to.
But I guess this was just added to add more context about who the person is. More personal stories are more interesting to read.
Oh man, we need some of that shit in the US. Arrest these right wing media nut jobs and their Jewish laser bullshit.
They arrested the guy too. And I’m all for it.
what? what the fuck is going on here.
Context, fast. This is a context-robery!
Did they?
Looks like German runes
Careful what you wish for. Our freedom of speech is a pretty big thing we have. You want the guy who tweeted that Vance was a couch fucker to be thrown in prison or some shit?
Freedom of speech should not equal to the freedom of consequences. You should be able to say whatever you want, but when you lie with intent of causing harm, you should be accountable.
I’m okay with this phrase except for the word “intent”. If we give someone the power to try to assess our intent, it can easily go the way of totalitarian states where they say you have a bad intent any time you criticize the government.
You should be punished for outcome, not intent. If you say something provably untrue that results in riots or murders, you should be held accountable for the outcomes of those statements. This is not that different from our current libel laws.
But all criminal law already has a concept of Mens rea (guilty mind) baked in. The reasonable proving of intentions is nessisary for the severity of the sentencing in almost all cases under review and has been at least as long as anyone here has been alive. It isn’t the sole factor of creating a criminal charge because - as you stated you also need to prove harms but saying people are not punished for intent and treating that as only the tool of strictly authoritarian government is factually untrue.
Yes my point was that “guilty mind” alone shouldn’t be enough to charge you with a crime.
Agreed, but you also said :
I’m okay with this phrase except for the word “intent”. If we give someone the power to try to assess our intent, it can easily go the way of totalitarian states where they say you have a bad intent any time you criticize the government.
And I am pointing that the power to assess intent is actually a norm in the justice system. Too many people on here are very quick to catastrophize things that are actually very culturally normal and stable in systems of law. Your point is not the same one I was making, hence why I referenced your likely intended point in my post.
Furthermore if outcomes are what gets punished, then what happens if people get hurt because you said something provably true? Poeple aren’t rational at the worst of times.
Untrue does not automatically mean its a lie. For an untruth to be a lie it also must intend to deceive.
All lies are untrue but all untruths are not lies in the same way all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
But even untruths that intend to deceive aren’t automatically lies, could be a joke though it’s probably debatable with regards to joking. But then that’s exactly why intent must be determined when considering the totality of any situation/incident
Something can be done for amusement that isn’t a joke. And we all should be aware of the nature of Trolls at this point online
Calling a dude a couch fucker is not the same as yelling fire in a crowded movie theater.
And really, the worst thing the JD Vance rumors will do is cause a sales bump for Siemens couches by Republican males.
When you spread outright lies about someone what sparks violence, it’s a bit different, right? Or are you on the side of the woman who lied about Emmet Till and got him killed? Because if it was known she lied about the thing at the time, I’d say she should have been jailed the same as his killers.
If the hard right propaganda machine isn’t shut down we will deal with the risk of a fascist takeover every four years for the rest of our country’s existence.
Free speech is not absolute, and the ‘fighting words’ precedent certainly applies to fascist instigators.
We almost had to deal with the free speech limitations of KOSA. The power to limit free speech will eventually be abused.
We have always lived with exceptions to freedom of speech. Libel, slander and obscenity law as examples. The sanctity of medical records is another.
The UK also technically does not and never has had any freedom of speech enshrined in law and the government has always been able to squash print and media publications that post things deemed a danger to security.
Russia on the other hand holds a constitutional freedom of speech and the press… But will also send you to prison for publishing “LGBTQIA propaganda”
Americans treat this misplaced concept of freedom of speech as this full access pass as a universal good that is the only thing holding us all back from totalitarian regimes. In reality however speech has both never been totally free even in America as plenty of exceptions have always existed and having those protections is way more optional in other democratic nations then they would believe. It also does not protect from abuse on it’s own.
Remember that any and all tenants of free speech aren’t nessisarily a universal good. If there are measurable harms being done to people your nation is allowed to carve out an exception. It’s on you to critically evaluate the individual exception for potential issues but not specifically on the basis of a dogmatic adherence to an idea of free speech. Totally free speech itself could actually be harmful to a society and in fact has already proven to be hence libel/slander laws.
Yeah the reality is if the courts start letting the government arrest people for speech, it’s those going on about “woke mind viruses” who are gonna be the first to weaponize that. Without free speech, the left ceases to exist.
The left have been utterly excluded from free speech protections.
Yes, they have.
I mean Rogan and Kyle Rittenhouse got canceled this week by trumpers for daring to not say trump is their favorite weirdo. Free speech is mostly a bludgeon that is currently only allowed to be wielded by in groups.
If you spread a knowingly false fact with the intent of causing riots, imo that’s a good law. Nobody is going to riot over the couch fucking tweet.
There’s a difference between getting canceled and getting in actual trouble by the government.
People complaining about you is not the same thing as being put in jail
“People complaining about you” is a weird way to say “death threats”
On the internet it tends to come with the territory unfortunately
When you are calling these fucking assholes weirdos, do you realize how fucking many kids have had to live through that stigma being slung at them unfairly and hurtfully?
Do you know why one of the worlds most loved and celebrated humans calls himself Weird Al Yankovich?
Yes im venting im sorry but this new tactic against the enemies of humanity is going to cause damage to people who are already and always have been vulnerable.
Shame on everyone who is jumping on this band wagon with absolutely no understanding of the consequences you are having.
I hope you can live with yourself for being part of the reason kids feel like they need to take a gun, go to school, and start shooting their bullies. While thats not the motivation of all these school shootings it was very much a big part of Columbine happening.
So go ahead and keep doing harm to a small group of people you didnt give enough thought to before you propagate this moniker for people are some of the worst people in history
As somebody who grew up being called weird for having head trauma as a kid, you missed the ball here. Kids have a way of cutting egos with even harmless words. Bullies should be weird. Assholes should be weird. As in they shouldn’t be normalized. The word does have a meaning and its not inherently bad, but it can be with the correct intonation and facial expression
I’m not missing the ball thank you very much.
But you are obviously my point because you just restated everything i was talking about.
I couldn’t agree with you more
If someone unironically advocated for that, then yes.
Lies aren’t free speech.
Though without the Context I have a feeling that this was to show show how ridiculous the allegations of him are.
My understanding is that it was a made up name, so there is no “him”. But also, she’s claiming she heard it from someone else, so why is she the one getting in all the trouble, as opposed to everyone else who spread it around?
This is the first time i have seen someone with an Israeli flag on Lemmy. Congratulations.
Hard to believe anyone would riot over JD Vance fucking a couch though
Only those too propagandized to realize it believe you actually have the right to free speech in the USA. You’re guilty of something, all the time, in the USA. If they want to get you for something, they can. It’s that simple. It’s not hyperbole and it is the fascist playbook used in the USSR before as well.
You’ll be hard pressed to find people in the US who get in trouble for criticism of the government or most other things. I can freely say the president sucks and cops are dirty, and no one will lift a finger in the US. I’m allowed to say this. There’s a good many countries where you can’t.
It’s hyperbole but it’s not out of the realm of possibility for that to change, given someone’s litigious nature, to declare that activity to be treasonous…
That’s a tall hill to climb. It’s literally been protected by the Supreme Court that you can fly a flag that says something like “Fuck Biden”(I think biden did a fairly good job, fyi). There are limitations to freedom of speech, but criticism and opinions aren’t any of them.
I hope so. I really do. There seems to be interest in ignoring the constitution that they claim to protect…
ya, but that’s republicans for the vast majority
Obviously when it works out in my favor… I’m all for it.
But really, slander is slander. JD has plenty to make fun of that’s real. Just dig a little.
It’s not slander if you can’t prove it’s not true.
Well, you’re technically correct. How does one prove they never fucked a couch?
You fucked a couch! Prove me wrong. 😛
I don’t need to, I’m not accusing you of slander. 😉
Well, now I have a visual. 🤤
UK has freedom of speech, but there are limits. Been a Nazi is not covered.
As Chomsky said, “That’s not freedom of speech”
In which case, perhaps unqualified “freedom of speech” isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
(I appreciate that Chomsky’s opinion resonates more with 1968 than now.)
In which case, perhaps unqualified “freedom of speech” isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
I believe it is. But if you don’t that’s your belief, but at least admit you therefore do not believe in freedom of speech.
I think unqualified freedom to say anything can lead to negative utility, pragmatically speaking. Malicious lies bring less than nothing to discourse.
I’m concerned that the libel system can be abused, of course; and I don’t approve of arresting octogenerians under the Prevention of Terrorism Act for shouting “nonsense!” at Jack Straw. But I don’t see there being a need to draw a distinction between online and in person speech, and I think that incitement to riot isn’t something I’d typically defend.
Having said that: I hope the woman in question (who has a history of being a deniable pot-stirrer) gets a trial rather than copping a plea, because the bounds of these things are worth testing.
Malicious lies bring less than nothing to discourse.
I don’t trust anyone to evaluate that is the problem.
Is libel freedom of speech?
I personally believe it is. Legally it isn’t in the US. But luckily courts are pretty hesitant to actually prosecute it most of the time
I think you mean freeze peach
Wow. That would be a first that spreading misinformation actually has legal consequences.
Fox News FAFOed 787 million legal consequences.
Eh, the fact they’re still at it means it was just the cost of doing business.
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And that other conspiracist from infowars.
Quite the punishment. Imagine the inconvenience of having to hide hundreds of millions of dollars.
Now do newspapers next!
Don’t cut yourself on that edge
Also, how much is she to blame, as opposed to RT and Andrew Tate? This woman is a rich racist nobody. She wasn’t the main person to spread the info. She isn’t a media outlet, and she isn’t required to fact check anything she heard (as she claims she heard it from someone else). What’s next? Someone getting arrested for calling Vance a couch fucker? (USA still has some stuff going alright for itself)
She made up a racist lie about a child killer and expressed that violence should result. People rioted. It’s called incitement to violence and it’s illegal in the UK. No one rioted over the couch nonsense, and no one called for violence over the couch fucking. It’s a bit different. Call a riot, go to jail. Your racist lying calls to violence aren’t welcome in the UK, rich racist nobody.
She either made up a racist lie, or she just does a racist lie that she heard. Where’s she calling for violence or telling people to riot?
Read the tweet. The logic goes A. If A then B. You’re struggling with deducing B from that? You’re forgetting that the rioters targeted asylum lawyers and hotels where asylum seekers are held. Where did the idea of last week’s violence against asylum seekers come from? It came from her tweet.
I don’t care what she says about what someone said in Southport. She was the one who posted the made up name for the child killer. She was the one who posted the made up claim about the killer being an asylum seeker, and she was the one who posted the made up conclusion of violence.
Her tweet itself is the incitement to violence. She’s the one who made the announcement online. That there is the crime.
Don’t do it, boys and girls. Don’t encourage people to violence on the Internet. It’s illegal in the UK. Your racist lies and support for violence aren’t welcome in Great Britain and we’ll very happily see you behind bars along with the far right nut jobs who heed your dog whistle. If this scares any of you personally, good. Not sorry. Don’t post support for violence on social media.
They’ve already arrested people for making jokes, arrested a kid for insulting an Olympian, and arrested someone for tweeting “the only good soldier is a dead soldier”. The UK government continues to be tyrannical and unethical.
Good, fuck Nazis.
Surprisingly balanced and civil discussions in these comments. Super proud to be here 💪 this would not happen elsewhere
She’s a millionaire, so not a lot of support for her.
I wish that was really the case.
You actually raise a very interesting point.
Is this discussion so civilized because people here are civilized or just because it alligns with the majority of lemmys political views? Would it look any different if it went against wealthy people instead of immigrants?
to be fair, wealthy people aren’t routinely discriminated against, they literally are some of the most powerful people.
This.
While she has not been named in the police statement about the arrest, it is believed to be Bonnie Spofforth, a mother-of-three and the managing director of a clothing company.
They really shouldn’t be naming people like that without being sure of it. “Believing” isn’t knowing and if it’s not her, then she could be in for a lot harassment online and offline.
The irony of naming someone as the “woman shares name of man she believes was the one arrested for crime before the police released the name” before the police release the name is incredibly ridiculous.
It’s “Metro” it’s a free newspaper that’s available on every bus in the UK owned by the same people as the infamous paper: the Daily Mail. It has the same low-quality journalism but with the opposite spin (centre-left).
I wouldn’t trust those two papers to wipe my arse clean because there’d be more shit smeared onto my cheeks!
They’re confident enough that they feel they won’t get a libel suit and that has to count for something, even if it is a rag because honestly if they have the name wrong I’d love to be that woman: Instant mortgage paid off and at least one full board holiday to Magaluf.
I heard someone say it was that khannie fella from gemmyverse or something.
Social media is a huge fucking problem. Maybe not as serious as climate change, but people are dying because of a few bad faith actors. Something needs to be done but I’m not sure what.
This is just the current tech’s version of a timeless problem, though. People have always been able to just say shit and cause problems because others believed them.
Examples:
Emmett Till was lynched back in the 1950s due to a lying white woman, becoming an iconic part of the civil rights movement.
In the late 1930s, the War of the Worlds story freaked a bunch of people out when it was first broadcast.
In 1897, Mark Twain’s death was falsely reported enough that he publicly commented about it.
There’s also the Great Moon Hoax in 1835.
William Anderton is a famous example of fake news from the 1700s.
we’ve even got fake news in ancient Rome involving Octavian, Marc Antony, and Cleopatra.
People will always be doing this dumb shit, whether it’s a town crier, a printing press, or a social media site.
The key is to exercise critical thinking and promote its use to everyone.
I think it’s also regulation and a legal system. Anarchy doesn’t work. It’s a Tragedy Of The Commons problem. It’s always ruined by a few ass holes. The Commons need a mechanism to weed itself. I.e. Rules and enforcement of those rules.
Problem is Xitter is a centralized closed monopoly thing owned by a crazy near trillionaire. The Commons has no control of it. It’s a diseased setup.
Fun fact, the tragedy of the commons is a fictitious construct invented by British nobility to justify their taking ownership of commonly held land
It has many appliances and no doubt many names. But it’s easy to work out on first principals. Without a system of enforced rules, ass holes take over and ruin it for everyone (including themselves). Places without law and order are a mess and normally end up with laws set by war/drug lord. Until they are murdered and the next one takes over.
As much as this behavior is appalling, blaming it on one individual is absurd. Social networks provide incentives to lie and stir people up, it can even be profitable. As long as that’s the reality, there will be lies that cause riots.
I look at it the way I look at drunk driving. If you drink and drive, most of the time you’re going to be fine. You’re not going to get in an accident, and you’re not going to get caught. But what you’re doing is still dangerous and wrong.
If you do get caught because you were swerving all over the road and a cop saw you, you’re going to be in some shit, but it probably won’t ruin your life. If you cross the divider into oncoming traffic and obliterate a family in a minivan, on the other hand, once you’re out of the hospital you should be dragged to court and then to prison for what you actually did.
Deliberately spreading misinformation online is like driving drunk. You’re going to get away with it 99% of the time, and nothing major will actually come from the lies you spread specifically. However, if you’re so reckless with your lies that you cross that metaphorical divider and start a series of escalating race riots that do demonstrable damage, then you get to suffer the consequences for what you’ve done.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
But that is why, if they catch you, and you haven’t obliterated a family, you still catch heat.
This lying bitch isn’t likely to catch nearly enough to deter future drunk driving at the keyboard. When we catch you driving drunk you lose your fucking license.
Not if they start facing repercussions for their actions, like this woman is.
bingo. change has to start somewhere.
You don’t think we should blame the one person who made up the lie and sparked racist riots across the country?
One thing that isn’t really touched on because it never got published is that Spofforth has been an active organizer for the far right since 2020. Since then she has been active in anti Drag Queen Story Hour harrasment and targeting hotels. Another example is Yorkshire Rose (Amanda Smith) who has been doing the exact same but to a larger extent.
My main concern is that these fascist agitators have been placed into prisons with people of colour and leftwing activists for an extended period of time.
I hope all people suffereing from the rampage by this mob will sue this woman for damages.
I would like to suggest that Rwanda would be an appropriate place to serve her sentence.
lol. We’re short of prison space so get the deal with Rwanda for immigrants changed to be criminals instead.
Good. She deserves it.
Karens been lying fr centuries but becuase middle aged white woman can do no wrong, many people got killed or imprisoned over it.
Only now has society admitted that they lying a lot for stupid reasons like racism or just BC fuck you due to camera phones…
Similar to the story with cops. About time botha team held accountable for exploiting the system.
Metro UK - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for Metro UK:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: Medium - Factual Reporting: Mixed - United Kingdom
Wikipedia about this sourceFine. You get an upvote for self improvement and being useful for once… but I’m still going to be bitchy about it 😊
