- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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Click on the multi-colored federation star to see exactly what you expect to
“Heh, nice try President of South Africa, but I think I know a little something about African-Chinese diplomacy from all the feddit articles whose headlines and preview paragraph I’ve read.”
South Africa: “this is not a debt trap”
China: “this is not a debt trap”
The most smug person you’ve ever heard: “mmm, isn’t there someone you forgot to ask?”
Are the terms of the loans secret or something? With western debt traps we can point to the austerity measures and such… are they even accusing China of anything specific?
honestly hexbear should rename it as “button into the hitler dimension” as a bit on april fools or something lol
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if you want to see a debt trap in action take a quick glance at the IMF.
argentina sends its regards.
America might lose interest in investing after the article.
Well I mean… I sure hope not. I personally don’t see any reason to think it’s anything other than China trying to gain support from nations that are on the fence or don’t care about them, which to be clear is not a bad thing. They’re free to pursue any relations they desire, and the other nations are free to do the same. Hopefully the politicians involved are truly working for the betterment of both countries.
That said, the person making the shady deal would clearly say “it’s not a shady deal”, and the person duped by aforementioned shady deal would obviously not want to admit being duped by said shady deal. So everyone involved has every reason to say this anyway.
In other words: a lot of words to ultimately say nothing. Much like this comment.
In other words: a lot of words to ultimately say nothing. Much like this comment.
still not beating the liberalism allegations
Al you need to do is look at the testimonies of other countries. Let’s not pretend that all we can do is shrug and say we’ve no reason to make a reasoned assumption either way.
There’s plenty of goodwill built up at this point for China.
https://x.com/luo_yuehan/status/1684646642316636162
China’s interest is in “win-win” deals, only one aspect of which is building good will. What they are investing in is infrastructure, things that other countries can build on to become more developed and secure trading partners. A country needs a (better) port to send and receive goods from China, or from a constellation if countries not attempting to isolate China and thus extend their Imperialist regimes. It’s not charity but it is a fantastically better way of doing things than the usual alternative of neoliberal loan terms. It results in actual ports, rail lines, power plants, etc.
I think the port (and even just railways) argument is a little poor, imperialists absolutely build big and good ports so they can efficiently extract a country’s resources, and use railways to connect the inland mines and what not to the ports. Basically, both China and the west have built railways in the global south, but the real difference comes from when you look at a map of the railways built: the west has always built railways nearly exclusively from inland at the locations of mining towns and towns located near other valuable resources to heighten the efficiency of their resource extraction but China builds railroads from inland city to inland city and from port to port, making internal economic development easier and easier for the country.
Yes, absolutely. Full agreement.
I have the same sentiment but here it is in my own terms. Ports are a tool of trade and can be used in favor of imperialists or against them or at least in a way that creates more independence. I do think there is a qualitative difference in associated development and loan terms here, though. Loans for ports foisted by Imperialists come with conditions that more or less convert an entire country’s economy into an extraction economy with unequal exchange, e.g. petrostates, mining states, cheap exploited labor states. With China it is just the port with decent loan terms. And as you mention, associated development lines up with building productive forces within the country rather than subordinating all of production to (neo)colonial extraction.
I’m glad we cleared that up
Before anyone objects to the this statement: do you really think somebody would just go in fronw of the international community and tell lies?
Depends who and in what situation. USA or Israel do it more than not. This case? I don’t see why, especially that it’s in accordance with other countries, as quoted by few other posters in this thread.
Yes?
Exactly, we should assume that any international representation is not transparent
Right, of course not
Hmmm, it might not be, but it’s still within the interests of the chinese state. Let’s say the CCP actually wanted Africa to succeed. They may see the ascendance of Africa into something close to first world conditions as beneficial to them, as now they would have this history of benevolence and investments with a market away from the US, thus slowly chipping away at their reliance to the west.
but it’s still within the interests of the chinese state
Obviously lmao. Why the hell would a country do something for no reason
The more Africa develops with Chinese cooperation, the more China gets access to wealthier markets to sell stuff to that they have good relations with.
Why the hell would a country do something for no reason
This is kinda astounding posting and i read it all the time everywhere. On one side we have western imperialists shamelessly and openly looting Africa for centuries, but liberals will suddenly expect China to just do one sided transactions that only cause them loss? And make it the implicit or explicit “both sides bad” argument? It’s also usually from the proponents of capitalism and free trade, which is in theory supposed to benefit both sides.
It is in China’s self-interest for the era of imperialism, complete with its colonialism and neocolonialism, to come to an end. It turns out, that’s also in the self-interest of literally everyone, even the imperialists. So the fact that this is in the interests of China is sort of a moot point.
That’s like saying a doctor is only curing people of life threatening diseases so she can eat a decent meal and sleep in a comfortable bed. Uh, sure… I think we can all agree that whoever helps out should get a good life. What’s the point of saying what you’re saying, exactly?
I mean, it would be nice to see a comparison between a Chinese loan and a loan by the IMF. Maybe the sting still has to come because they haven’t been doing it for as long, but there’s got to be a good reason those countries go with China instead of the IMF.
To me it seems like IMF loans involve privatising revenue generating assets, lowering taxes on the wealthy and austerity on the masses. The biggest criticism of the Chinese way of financing is that if you default on the loan you used to build a port/highway/railway line, they keep that specific asset. And I guess instead of using local labour they use Chinese workers.
There’s definitely things to criticise there, but I know which option I’d pick if I needed a port in my country.
The IMF also often includes terms that prevent food sovereignty, require food imports, and require anti-labor legislation.
IMF loans are used to shackle a country to the neoliberal world order. All it takes us a single right wing government to take on one or more loans and now every government for decades on has to deal with the terms and the debt that prevent the country from developing and gaining security.
South Africa, from apartheid to corruption, and the people suffer for it, what an embarrassment
Western chauvinism at display
South Africa suffers from an incomplete revolution that ended de jure apartheid but kept much of its social base. Having good infrastructure and trade deals is not a problem for South Africa, however. Instead, look to the white supremacist enclaves and the way SA has been treated by the Western bloc.
