As an Irish person, you can’t end terrorism with violence. You just create martyrs to a cause, a cause which looks more and more legitimate the more civilians suffer and die because of said violence. “Kill the rebels” every 20 years did nothing for peace on Ireland for 800 years.
Stop making violence the only thing you’ll react to in any way? Or indeed, stop responding to peaceful resistance with violence (eg the civil rights marches in Northern Ireland).
It might seem like Palestine has been a hopeless mire forever, but there was a point in the 90s where the last reasonable leaders of both sides were coming together for a peaceful solution. Hamas and the Israeli right wing - the “both sides” of today - were on the fringe.
Then Yitzhak Rabin was killed by an Israeli right-winger, Israel inexplicably responded by killing a Hamas leader, Arab civilians were massacred at the Cave of Patriarchs by an American Israeli, and Hamas responded with more bombings, Yassar Arafat died under siege by the IDF, Hamas took control of Gaza, and well, here we are.
The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin is probably as impactful to history of that of Archduke Ferdinand, but seems to be being forgotten.
Rabin was murdered by a Likud fanatic with personal ties to Mossad. Israel disputes any involvement of Mossad. Before the murder, Likud and other fascists called for the murder of Rabin and depicted him as new Hitler. After the murder of Rabin Netanyahu took power. While there were supposed center or progressive governments in between Netanyahus reigns, they all continued the annexation of more Palestinian land to make a two state solution or any solution except ethnic cleansing and genocide impossible.
It is important to understand that all of Israels society has been poisoned into various degrees of fascism over the past 30 years.
At this point the Israelis have made the two state solution impossible because of their settling of the best lands of the West Bank in such a way that makes a contiguous truly independent Palestinian state impossible.
So the only way forward is Democracy with safety and equal rights for all, Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others from the river to the sea.
The Israeli right of the last 30 years has basically made it a choice between genocide and apartheid and the end of Zionism as we know it.
Your fatal assumption is that the Palestinians want peace too. They were given pipes to create water lines, they turned the pipes into rockets. You can’t have piece when neither side wants it.
What do expect Palestinians to do? Do you want them to waste away drinking contaminated water because Israel attacked their sole desalination plant? That isn’t peace either.
When do you think this conflict started? Because if you’re not aware Israel has been bombing Gaza for decades. The bombing of the desalinization plant I mentioned happened in 2021 and Israel has bombed water infrastructure in Gaza far before that.
Don’t avoid the question this time. In such circumstances what do you expect Palestinians to do? Because as far as I can tell the only answer you have for them is death.
When do you think this conflict started? Because if you’re not aware Israel has been bombing Gaza for decades. The bombing of the desalinization plant I mentioned happened in 2021 and Israel has bombed water infrastructure in Gaza far before that.
Which is significantly after 2014 when Palestine started using water pipes for rockets.
Don’t avoid the question this time. In such circumstances what do you expect Palestinians to do? Because as far as I can tell the only answer you have for them is death.
I expect if Palestine wants peace that they would use water pipes for delivery of water not explosives.
Yeah… Except this is total bullshit. There was an airport built in Gaza. Israel bombed it the next month to prevent Palestinians from ever developing outside of Israels occupational pressure.
The amount of food and building materials amd other essentials being allowed into Gaza was deliberately limited to slowly degrade the living conditions in a way easily ignorable by the West.
The smuggling Tunnels into Egypt were a great source of income for Hamas, by allowing people to smuggle in basic commodities.
Meanwhile Israels “mowing the lawn” always revolved around slowly destroying Gaza and not allowing for rebuilding. The difference now is that they removed all restraint as the US and allies are allowing the total annihilation of all infrastructure, ethnic cleansing and genocide with impunity.
Israel has been supporting Palestinians such ash letting them work within Israel. But that didn’t help unfortunately.
The best solution is education. The hard truth is what they are being educated with: to terror and destruction or to peace and prosperity.
Saying that letting Palestinians work in their own ancestral land as precarious labour is “Israel supporting Palestinians”, is like saying that Apartheid South Africa was such a supportive institution for letting the blacks in Soweto work outside the fucking Bantustan.
Are they asking to do so? Is there an organization, entity, etc that argues for their return? If so, please let me know its name because I would want to donate to them because I 100% support their right to do so.
Because I don’t have double standards. And to bring the focus back to Palestine and Israel, I 100% support the right of Jews to live and thrive in safety there AND I 100% support the right of Palestinians to do the exact same. No double standard. Same rights, same protections.
And if your dream were ever to come true (and I unwaveringly support you in that), would you accept to live in the conditions that Palestinians are forced to endure in the occupied territories? Hell, even the conditions that Arab Israelis are enduring as second class citizens inside Israel proper?
I don’t fucking think so.
Which brings me back to my main question: do you accept the basic Enlightenment, Common-Sense principle of same rights, and same laws, and same protections for all people from the river to the sea?
Killing terrorists isn’t genocide. Plenty of violent groups have been stopped by arresting or killing their members. That doesn’t mean their race, culture, or nation was destroyed though. The only “culture” that distinguishes them from those around them is a philosophy predicated on killing as many civilians as possible. Often people within their own culture stop them with violence since they often target their own.
As an Irish person, you can’t end terrorism with violence. You just create martyrs to a cause, a cause which looks more and more legitimate the more civilians suffer and die because of said violence. “Kill the rebels” every 20 years did nothing for peace on Ireland for 800 years.
What’s the antidote for that then?
Stop making violence the only thing you’ll react to in any way? Or indeed, stop responding to peaceful resistance with violence (eg the civil rights marches in Northern Ireland).
It might seem like Palestine has been a hopeless mire forever, but there was a point in the 90s where the last reasonable leaders of both sides were coming together for a peaceful solution. Hamas and the Israeli right wing - the “both sides” of today - were on the fringe.
Then Yitzhak Rabin was killed by an Israeli right-winger, Israel inexplicably responded by killing a Hamas leader, Arab civilians were massacred at the Cave of Patriarchs by an American Israeli, and Hamas responded with more bombings, Yassar Arafat died under siege by the IDF, Hamas took control of Gaza, and well, here we are.
The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin is probably as impactful to history of that of Archduke Ferdinand, but seems to be being forgotten.
Rabin was murdered by a Likud fanatic with personal ties to Mossad. Israel disputes any involvement of Mossad. Before the murder, Likud and other fascists called for the murder of Rabin and depicted him as new Hitler. After the murder of Rabin Netanyahu took power. While there were supposed center or progressive governments in between Netanyahus reigns, they all continued the annexation of more Palestinian land to make a two state solution or any solution except ethnic cleansing and genocide impossible.
It is important to understand that all of Israels society has been poisoned into various degrees of fascism over the past 30 years.
Zionism has always been Fascism, since it’s inception as a Setter Colonialist Ideology. Ethnic Cleansing has been fundamental to it since Herzl
At this point the Israelis have made the two state solution impossible because of their settling of the best lands of the West Bank in such a way that makes a contiguous truly independent Palestinian state impossible.
So the only way forward is Democracy with safety and equal rights for all, Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others from the river to the sea.
The Israeli right of the last 30 years has basically made it a choice between genocide and apartheid and the end of Zionism as we know it.
So there.
Help - provide food, housing, education. Stop dehumanizing people. Help them build a peaceful future. Everyone will benefit from that.
But that would require actual good will.
Your fatal assumption is that the Palestinians want peace too. They were given pipes to create water lines, they turned the pipes into rockets. You can’t have piece when neither side wants it.
What do expect Palestinians to do? Do you want them to waste away drinking contaminated water because Israel attacked their sole desalination plant? That isn’t peace either.
There are reports of water pipes being made into rockets as far back as 2014. This was before the conflict even started.
When do you think this conflict started? Because if you’re not aware Israel has been bombing Gaza for decades. The bombing of the desalinization plant I mentioned happened in 2021 and Israel has bombed water infrastructure in Gaza far before that.
Don’t avoid the question this time. In such circumstances what do you expect Palestinians to do? Because as far as I can tell the only answer you have for them is death.
Which is significantly after 2014 when Palestine started using water pipes for rockets.
I expect if Palestine wants peace that they would use water pipes for delivery of water not explosives.
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Yeah… Except this is total bullshit. There was an airport built in Gaza. Israel bombed it the next month to prevent Palestinians from ever developing outside of Israels occupational pressure.
The amount of food and building materials amd other essentials being allowed into Gaza was deliberately limited to slowly degrade the living conditions in a way easily ignorable by the West.
The smuggling Tunnels into Egypt were a great source of income for Hamas, by allowing people to smuggle in basic commodities.
Meanwhile Israels “mowing the lawn” always revolved around slowly destroying Gaza and not allowing for rebuilding. The difference now is that they removed all restraint as the US and allies are allowing the total annihilation of all infrastructure, ethnic cleansing and genocide with impunity.
One state solution
They’ll keep doing it so that they can have an out group to blame for people’s problems.
Israel has been supporting Palestinians such ash letting them work within Israel. But that didn’t help unfortunately. The best solution is education. The hard truth is what they are being educated with: to terror and destruction or to peace and prosperity.
Saying that letting Palestinians work in their own ancestral land as precarious labour is “Israel supporting Palestinians”, is like saying that Apartheid South Africa was such a supportive institution for letting the blacks in Soweto work outside the fucking Bantustan.
What about the 900,000 Jewish exodus from the Muslim world? Is someone letting them work, or even enter, their own “ancestral land”? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
Are they asking to do so? Is there an organization, entity, etc that argues for their return? If so, please let me know its name because I would want to donate to them because I 100% support their right to do so.
Because I don’t have double standards. And to bring the focus back to Palestine and Israel, I 100% support the right of Jews to live and thrive in safety there AND I 100% support the right of Palestinians to do the exact same. No double standard. Same rights, same protections.
Do you accept that principle?
I am, and it’s my dream that it will happen.
And if your dream were ever to come true (and I unwaveringly support you in that), would you accept to live in the conditions that Palestinians are forced to endure in the occupied territories? Hell, even the conditions that Arab Israelis are enduring as second class citizens inside Israel proper?
I don’t fucking think so.
Which brings me back to my main question: do you accept the basic Enlightenment, Common-Sense principle of same rights, and same laws, and same protections for all people from the river to the sea?
Which is horrible in itself, but this doesnt justify the zionists doing the same and worse against the Palestinians.
This sound like survivorship bias. We got rid of plenty of terrorists with violence you just don’t know about them because they’re gone
Well yes, the only way to erase a nation or culture’s hatred of your violence is with enough violence to literally genocide them.
But there really aren’t that many. You just put it down for a generation until it comes back, usually with a different name.
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Killing terrorists isn’t genocide. Plenty of violent groups have been stopped by arresting or killing their members. That doesn’t mean their race, culture, or nation was destroyed though. The only “culture” that distinguishes them from those around them is a philosophy predicated on killing as many civilians as possible. Often people within their own culture stop them with violence since they often target their own.