use truly foss apps. Anything that’s has a corp built around it is going to enshitify
Self-hosting and FOSS are the way to go. We saw this demonstrated when Raspberry Pi started acting stupidly as a company. There are so many alternatives that it is easy to switch. Unfortunately some things are pretty tough to self-host, like email and anonymizing VPN. But there are a lot of low-hanging fruit that makes it less painful to divest from bad companies.
What happened with Proton?
The proton CEO praised Donald Trump’s choice for who would lead the government’s antitrust division, and now most of Lemmy think they’re a Nazi company or something.
Just typical cancel culture bullshit. Where people choose to be outraged rather than attempting to understand a situation.
They doubled down by leaving federated services in favor of Reddit, which certainly isn’t a great look imo
Yeah I agree it’s been an extreme reaction. Perfect is the enemy of good. Maybe most proton users will be willing to seek out even lesser known alternatives and even self host. But if you’re going to talk to a casual user about getting off of Gmail and then you say “Oh but not Proton” then they’re just going to stick with Gmail.
🤦 To be expected, at this point.
The loyalty the left expects from others but never gives in return is truly a sight to behold. Essentially it boils down to “agree with everything they say and if you disagree with one thing, keep it to yourself or else you’re a nazi.”
The meme makes it seem lime there’s some causal relationship though: because we tried to avoid big corp products and dampen enshittification, the alternatives we started to seek are going bad? I don’t think so. The world at large is going to shit in a general stream of shitfulness, but I don’t think we caused that development by trying to evade the shit.
It’s good to have some variety - after all different things get shitty in different ways.
I wonder what is going to be Firefox reason to even exist if we already have Chrome and Edge?
It’s a generally recognised principle in economics that we want competition to take place, and for consumers to have a choice - for a plethora of reasons too large to list here. The most important IMO is a political one though: we don’t want monopolies for the same reason we don’t want monarchies and dictatorships. Being the sole provider of any very important product puts an obscene amount of power in the hand of a single corporation (or a handful of them). We never want that much power to be so concentrated in so few individuals, because it’s fundamentally injust, and always leads to catastrophe. Also consider that if that power is a corporation or a “private” individual, they’re not accountable to anyone but their shareholders (who, in turn never want the corp to be anything other than a money making machine). Even a dictator is more accountable to his subjects than a multinational corporation is to anyone. So there you have it, that’s why we need alternatives.
PLENTY of reasons if they oppose enshitification… but if they embrace it, then yes, they’ll just be another pimple in the ass of enshitificated software
Allows other competitors to exist
Chrome/edge are the same (yes, I know edge is technically better)
If everything only needs to adhere to chromium then chromium can put propriety code that only they are privy to and when web standards are made around it all competition can’t exist
We already have webapps that say they only work on chrome
I went all-in on proton a few years ago but I dislike the direction in which they are going now. Does anybody have tips on how (and where) to switch smoothly. I could self host email but I’ve heard that it’s a big hassle
I’ve been eyeing FastMail.
Self hosting is almost impossible with email these days. Places like Gmail and Outlook are going to consider you automatically suspicious until you’ve proven otherwise. Can’t prove otherwise until you have a lot of legit email going through. The only way to do that is to attach the domain to a service that’s already proven.
This isn’t even getting into the configuration issues of running an email server without it becoming a spam relay as soon as it’s turned on.
Depends what you want. If you want an experience like Proton with its own app then use Tuta. If you’re happy with IMAP with a client like Evolution (Linux) or FairEmail (mobile for Android) or access via a website then mailbox.org are very good.
What exactly is their direction? I heard the ceo is an ass, but their software seems fine to me.
I mean, someone made Graphene OS, a fork of Android. Surely someone can also do that for Firefox, right? 👀
There are several Firefox forks. Waterfox (based in Europe UK), Librewolf, Zen etc.
i switched from firefox to waterfox on my phone and have yet to spot any difference.
i heard some websites might have issues (e.g. web versions of office software) and some settings are missing but in my own everyday use i didn’t run into any of those yet.
Just chiming in to recommend Floorp. Have been using it for a few months now and really like it :D
I tried Zen on Arch. Wouldn’t even load pages. I’d avoid it for a while. 🤷♂️
I use Zen on Arch without issue. To be specific it’s Arch Wayland with Wayfire.
Ah. I use it on X11/i3.
I have been loving LibreWolf for a while now. Can really recommend it!
Which would yiu recommend librewolf or waterfox?
Librewolf is definitely better if you are a hardcore privacy nerd. I used it but it broke some sites due to the privacy settings. Waterfox is better than Firefox privacy-wise. Waterfox is in the sweet spot for me. Waterfox has an app but I do not like it because it was very slow compared to the Firefox app. I use Waterfox as desktop browser and Firefox as mobile browser.
Isn’t one of the point of the phenom of enshifitication that it’s near ubiquitous? The reason it can continue is because it reached a critical mass, leaving us few workable alternatives, like a symptom of monopolization. I’d wager some companies feel like they won’t survive if they don’t keep up, not sure if that assessment is true but I bet many think it is.
Ah the chaos theory reasoning. There can’t be anything perfect when thinking about it as a whole but you can find sections in a diversified area that are mostly perfect at some point in time but nothing ever lasts.
Enshitified product exists - > good alternative arises to meet demand - > good alternative becomes popular - > good alternative either becomes enshitified to maximize profits or is purchased by owner of original enshitified product.
The capitalist way.
FOSS FOSS FOSS and self-host.
Get used to it. Nothing lasts forever.
Browsers I tried yesterday (on Linux):
- Zen: neat, but the UI is too different for my taste
- Floorp: also neat, but features I don’t use
- Waterfox: sweet spot for me
Librewolf and Waterfox seem pretty similar on paper. I went with Waterfox cuz idk. So far, Waterfox seems to be a drop-in replacement. I haven’t noticed any problems with websites and haven’t run into any bugs.
One note about Waterfox is that I would have liked if it was added to the official Arch Linux repos. I installed fine with the AUR, but still.
Bonus: Waterfox is available on Android! 🥳
One note about Waterfox is that I would have liked if it was added to the official Arch Linux repos. I installed fine with the AUR, but still.
I tend to go with Flathub before the AUR, if available. 👍
I tend to go with Flathub before the AUR, if available.
This is the correct way to Linux in 2025
Cool. Could you elaborate? Because I only do this because of some kind of gut feeling… 😅
Flatpaks are containerized, making them both more reliable and more secure (in general… but it’s always possible to fuck things up).
Besides the benefits to users, there are also huge benefits to developers: they can publish a single package and support nearly every distro with it.
It’s often impossible for a dev to publish and maintain packages for all Linux distros out there, so stuff on AUR is built and packaged by well-meaning, but random people who are not the original developer. This very often leads to the app having bugs and compatibility issues which the developer ends up wasting time debugging and trying to fix even though it’s not their fault. (although downstream packagers can fuck this up too by publishing their own unofficial Flatpaks, like Fedora’s recent OBS shenanigans)
Oh yeah, the OBS thing. Yeah, I guess these are the reasons I’ve felt like Flatpaks are a bit more stable than AUR packages. They might take up more space or whatever, but it’s nice to know they work like they’re supposed to, especially commercial stuff like Spotify and Slack etc. I just wish Flatpak software integrated better with the rest of the system without extra configuration.
Zen: is Firefox
Floorp: is Firefox
Waterfox: is Firefox
Librewolf: is Firefox
They are all dependent on Mozilla and its choices.
There is currently no comptetive engine that isn’t owned/developed by a big company. Ladybird is slowly getting there, but it’s gonna take a while. Until then gecko engine is OK for now. It’s all opensource so we know when that’s no longer the case.
There is some degree of independence. For example, if Mozilla releases some super evil patch tomorrow, I’m pretty sure everyone would just patch it out immediately. In fact, this is what most derivatives seem to do, patch out the ad/telemetry stuff.
But yeah, these are all modified Firefox browsers. Hopefully, nobody was thinking these were unique, new, browsers.
No, being a fork doesn’t mean it’s the same browser.
Try Mullvad browser, it works well in my opinion. It should be used with a VPN (i.e. shared IP address space) though.
I like Zen for its different interface. I like having a built-in vertical tab bar. It’s not as focused on privacy and security as Librewolf is, though.
I found waterfox on aurora store android and below this stores page it lists trackers found: Mozilla telemetry, Sentry. What is the point if it gives Mozilla the same data? Or is this not whst i think it is?
Is Zen still a safe bet? I’m using it currently and quite like it actually so I’m hoping it’s still a good option. I just frankly am pretty ignorant of all this browser shenanigans.
Is waterfox independent of system1 now?
ETA: they are apparently: www.farside.link/reddit.com/r/waterfox/comments/14phsyl/a_new_chapter_for_waterfox/
Here is the link without the need to open reddit. https://www.waterfox.net/blog/a-new-chapter-for-waterfox/
One note about Waterfox is that I would have liked if it was added to the official Arch Linux repos. I installed fine with the AUR, but still.
Same for LibreWolf.
Bonus: Waterfox is available on Android! 🥳
I was thinking I should ditch android FF, too…
Ironfox is a solid alternative there too
There is also Epiphany. browser with the webkit engine.
constructs like companies and software come and go but the individuals, the movement that strives for freedom stays the same
What happened to proton?
Their Swiss CEO decided that supporting an authoritarian American neo nazi regime was a good idea
There is that, but did anything happen to the service itself?
If you’re on Proton to be privacy-oriented and stop governments or corporations from accessing your data, do you really trust the company when their CEO is cozying up to an authoritarian regime? I just don’t see Proton fighting any information requests from Trump right now, and just from a utilitarian perspective that makes them a bad choice for me as a user.
Personally, I feel like their service, except for VPN, was always half assed.
- No access to SMTP for automation
- Need to use that shitty bridge to use a useful client
- No pgp encryption in their web interface when talking to people not at proton
- proton drive does not offer any useful protocol like ftp, webdav, or sftp
- Calendar and Contacts cannot be easily synchronized to phone and desktop apps
The list goes on. I have only one account left with a proton email and the letter with a code so I can change that lies on my desk.
There is no way to have a secure or private SMTP service.
They definitely allow you to use pgp with people not at proton via the web ui.
Good point. I actually quit proton a few years ago because of the lack of SMTP and caldav.
And they decided that posting on Mastodon was bad so switched back to r*****.
How very neutral of him.
He’s not Swiss, he’s from Taiwan
The creator is pro-Trump and they also recently stopped posting updates to Mastodon citing “they don’t have the resources” for it, or something like that.
Correct me if I have missed something; I’ve got no skin in the game, I just see the drama a lot.
So weird these business guys get involved into political crap. It’s gotta alienate one side or another, simply lose lose.
Found this the other day, and it sorta makes me agree that this is getting a little blown up
And the top comment explains why it indeed is such s big issue. This is incomprehensibly incompetent.
There are few more services you need to be able to trust beyond your mail and VPN. If you have still trust then that’s ok, don’t get me wrong - but stating “just because the CEO spewed s bit of pro trump shit this got blown out of proportion” doesn’t acknowledge the propositions at all.
Andy Yen, who probably doesn’t keep up with U.S. news outside what he needs to for his company’s business needs, said an egghead thing.
Unless he said something else everyone is blowing this out of proportion.
said an egghead thing
The dumbification really does seem to permeate everything everywhere, doesn’t it. Imagine circlejerking antiintellectual regime taking points on lemmy.
Okay, “fucking dumbshit” then. Stop treating it like Proton is supporting trump somehow
Well, “everyone” being radicals online who think that everything is some sort of call to war. Normal people realize what it is. There are sprinkles of sane people here on Lemmy, but they’re drowned out by the crazies.
QED
Encountered someone from local instances in the wild.
Nothing. The CEO dared to congrat someone (Trump) that other people (including myself) heavily dislike from the wrong account. So, tolerant and rational people want to cancel him and his company.
I’m sorry but what possible positive can you find in Proton doing that?
In what universe does his kissing the feet of that dicator equate to us keeping our lives private?
Whatever, guys. I don’t care about Proton, I don’t care about it’s CEO, I don’t care about Trump (quite the opposite, actually). Be enraged on every little shit and don’t forget to ask even the grocery guy about his political preference. Maybe you’re giving money to someone supporting Trump or his local equivalent. The internet and its virtue signaling is becoming increasingly annoying these days.
No one asked. Bro blurted it out off the official account and people are understandably concerned
Concerned of what, exactly? Jeez, people really love drama.
Someone doesn’t know how to read writing on walls I see.
Someone else love useless drama.
deleted by creator
This thread got removed where it listed all of the things reddit collects, but we shouldn’t get complacent here either. We need to check our instances.
Some of the instances do this here. This is not a 100% haven. It’s great and waaaay better, but still, check into your instances, Lemmies.
I’m trying out 3 different browsers atm and I think I’ll just keep all 3 and cycle though or use at different privacy settings. I will miss Firefox and not having to think about my browser. Can’t wait to watch all 3 go to shit as well.
Librewolf seems exactly the same, but it breaks Lemmy for me. It’s probably a setting I didn’t know to turn off.
It’s likely the resist fingerprinting option. It breaks many websites or those that use bot checking thing.
I’ll try some testing around those features.
Don’t hold out on us! Which browsers?
I’ve been trying the duckduckgo browser, I think I may stick with it. No idea what to do about email
I’ve started migrating from Proton to Mailbox.org. Mailbox supports IMAP, and they have a calendar as well. https://mailbox.org/en/
The mozilla thing seems to be mostly bad PR, but yeah…
They took out the clause in their policy about not selling user data.
It’s pretty obvious what follows that
https://youtu.be/-8bTquKjzos That sums it up. The definition of what counts as “selling data” changed…
The problem is that they can’t or won’t tell the users which data from what parts of the program they sell to whom for what purpose. Instead, they just make you give up all the rights to all your data in a blanket statement. (I think they did adjust the TOS a little bit, but it’s still far from good)
Everyone keeps saying this, but no one has an answer for why, if they’re definitely going to start selling all our data, they didn’t say that in the new terms? I’ll get upset when they actually change them to be shitty.
