No, it’s not about simply talking to a nazi. It’s about engaging withvthem as if they are an honest actor. IF they are a true nazi (BIG ‘if’ with how utterly ignorant Americans are), they will only use your honest engagement to at best waste your time, and at worst further spread their hateful propaganda.
If you’re engaging with an actual nazi/far right dingdong, this holds true. If you’re engaging with some idiot who has only up to now heard nazi talking points, it is not true. It is about providing a platform for nazis, not about talking to idiots.
And it gets complicated, because bad actors use this to make spaces for cult behaviour.
Not just nazi specifically, but if you have spammers/bots you can effectively destroy any moderately nuanced progressive space by adding intentional offensive voices in the group, and at reactive voices outside the group calling the original members x/y and pointing at the bots in the group as evidence. Progressive voices will leave to avoid the association, while actual bigots will hear that it is another space for them. By the end, it’s like it was always a bigot space, and the original points and nuance never existed.
Beware divisive propaganda, but also don’t accept actual intentional bigots to invade a space. If they proudly wear their bigotry, let them know it’s not socially tolerated. They are a cancer if enabled.
If someone says they interact with a space to try and stop it from turning into a bigot space, maybe that’s not actually your enemy.
Been fighting cult building propaganda for two decades and now I’m just yelling that the emperor has no clothes. It makes me happy to see people at least engaging with the topic, without calling me a nazi for trying to stop the spread of Nazis.
Also casual reminder that black Americans are Russia’s biggest target. Self segregation is what they want, don’t fall for divisive rhetoric. Be wary of real bigots, especially socially empowered ones. find people you can trust, and find solidarity. Don’t feed the division between those who want to cooperate. Education, exposure, and communication are paramount.
True. In addition to that it’s close to far-right rhetoric. I’m not saying whether it’s correct or wrong… But they sure like to play victim and say people will label them a nazi if they talk about subjects or to certain people. And they’re being wronged.
Nah dude, if you tolerate fascists in any space, they use that space to recruit and try to transform the space for their needs. I’ve heard this from renfaire folks, who had to drive the fascists out of the space to keep it sane. I’ve heard about this happening in work places too. You gotta organize with non-fascists and drive the fascists out of the space by being vocally and actively supportive of groups they despise.
Want to know what the single biggest recruiting tool Nazis use, that nobody seems to ever talk about? Prison.
I’ve seen normal, non-bigoted people end up getting busted for a minor drug charge or something stupid, then they go to prison, get their heads filled with racist crap, and then come out sieg-heiling Nazis.
Prison is basically a Nazi-making factory at this point, so why does nobody ever talk about this?
I agree with this. If you’ve ever worked with someone that was awesome to work with and the whole space was left empty when they moved to another company, than you’ve experienced the opposite of a nazi. One toxic, shitty dude can make the whole place go down the toilet. It really only takes one to change a place.
Did we already forget the almost overnight shift in what was seen as acceptable discourse once Trump won in 2016? All these intolerant and hateful assholes crawled out and felt emboldened to chirp christofascist/racist/delusional conspiracies in public and online spaces. And that zeitgeist shift pulled the Overton Window sharply to the right, paving the road for our current situation.
If someone’s basic political ideology is “government should industrialize state murder of X group/s” they are not someone I can make common cause or find sympathetic arguments with, or not without a lot of cult de-programming first.
People on lemmy retort stuff like this with “If you talk to a nazi, you ARE a nazi”.
Meanwhile it’s just some dude who likes sourdough.
Honestly we have more in common than we think - on the left we just happen to “eat our own” so to speak.
No, it’s not about simply talking to a nazi. It’s about engaging withvthem as if they are an honest actor. IF they are a true nazi (BIG ‘if’ with how utterly ignorant Americans are), they will only use your honest engagement to at best waste your time, and at worst further spread their hateful propaganda.
If you’re engaging with an actual nazi/far right dingdong, this holds true. If you’re engaging with some idiot who has only up to now heard nazi talking points, it is not true. It is about providing a platform for nazis, not about talking to idiots.
And it gets complicated, because bad actors use this to make spaces for cult behaviour.
Not just nazi specifically, but if you have spammers/bots you can effectively destroy any moderately nuanced progressive space by adding intentional offensive voices in the group, and at reactive voices outside the group calling the original members x/y and pointing at the bots in the group as evidence. Progressive voices will leave to avoid the association, while actual bigots will hear that it is another space for them. By the end, it’s like it was always a bigot space, and the original points and nuance never existed.
Beware divisive propaganda, but also don’t accept actual intentional bigots to invade a space. If they proudly wear their bigotry, let them know it’s not socially tolerated. They are a cancer if enabled.
If someone says they interact with a space to try and stop it from turning into a bigot space, maybe that’s not actually your enemy.
Been fighting cult building propaganda for two decades and now I’m just yelling that the emperor has no clothes. It makes me happy to see people at least engaging with the topic, without calling me a nazi for trying to stop the spread of Nazis.
Also casual reminder that black Americans are Russia’s biggest target. Self segregation is what they want, don’t fall for divisive rhetoric. Be wary of real bigots, especially socially empowered ones. find people you can trust, and find solidarity. Don’t feed the division between those who want to cooperate. Education, exposure, and communication are paramount.
True. In addition to that it’s close to far-right rhetoric. I’m not saying whether it’s correct or wrong… But they sure like to play victim and say people will label them a nazi if they talk about subjects or to certain people. And they’re being wronged.
Nah dude, if you tolerate fascists in any space, they use that space to recruit and try to transform the space for their needs. I’ve heard this from renfaire folks, who had to drive the fascists out of the space to keep it sane. I’ve heard about this happening in work places too. You gotta organize with non-fascists and drive the fascists out of the space by being vocally and actively supportive of groups they despise.
Want to know what the single biggest recruiting tool Nazis use, that nobody seems to ever talk about? Prison.
I’ve seen normal, non-bigoted people end up getting busted for a minor drug charge or something stupid, then they go to prison, get their heads filled with racist crap, and then come out sieg-heiling Nazis.
Prison is basically a Nazi-making factory at this point, so why does nobody ever talk about this?
I agree with this. If you’ve ever worked with someone that was awesome to work with and the whole space was left empty when they moved to another company, than you’ve experienced the opposite of a nazi. One toxic, shitty dude can make the whole place go down the toilet. It really only takes one to change a place.
Did we already forget the almost overnight shift in what was seen as acceptable discourse once Trump won in 2016? All these intolerant and hateful assholes crawled out and felt emboldened to chirp christofascist/racist/delusional conspiracies in public and online spaces. And that zeitgeist shift pulled the Overton Window sharply to the right, paving the road for our current situation.
If someone’s basic political ideology is “government should industrialize state murder of X group/s” they are not someone I can make common cause or find sympathetic arguments with, or not without a lot of cult de-programming first.
Okay but if your options are more murder and less murder then you shouldn’t feel good about refusing to participate.