"It is truly a complicated issue, with a wide range of views, truly a wide range of views," Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre said on Tuesday.

“It is a complicated issue. It is truly a complicated issue, with a wide range of views, truly a wide range of views,” Jean-Pierre said. “There is no ‘yes or no’ answer to this, it is complicated. There is a rule that the Department of Education [DOE] has put forward, and we’re going to let that process move forward, and again, we want to make sure that while we establish guardrails with this rule, we also prevent discrimination, as well, against transgender kids. But again, a complicated issue with a wide range of views, and we respect that.”

“Absolutely no reason for the Biden admin to do this,” New York Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wrote. “It is indefensible and embarrassing. The admin can still walk this back, and they should. It’s a disgrace.”

“Honestly, this move by Biden to push a rule on trans kids in sports is not only a backwards betrayal, it [forces] us to have to spend our time dealing with god d*** sports instead of criminal bans on our healthcare,” Alejandra Caraballo, a civil rights attorney and LGBTQ+ advocate, wrote. “He could have just done nothing. This is legitimizing transphobia.”

The mOsT PrOgReSsIvE Administration in History™ funny-clown-hammer “A complicated issue with a wide range of views, and we respect that” funny-clown-hammer Fuck off out of here with that “centrist” nonsense. There’s nothing complicated about it, and it’s not an issue unless you want to turn it into one and want to appeal to people’s emotions like Republicans are doing. It was only a matter of time before they’d start throwing trans people under the bus. I guess with the coming elections it’s as good a time as ever.

    • thisonethatone [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      55·
      1 year ago

      As a trans person (ftm) first, the reason that this statement from Biden is so problematic isn’t just about the sports thing.

      The issue is that the administration is legitimizing a Trojan horse of bigotry. “Trans people shouldn’t be in sports” is a wedge issue being used to push trans people out of public life. We’re already going from sports, to chess, to trans children having their healthcare taken away.

      If the admin was on our side they would have decried these bigots, but by releasing this mealy mouth “Well its complicated…” statement they’ve given legitimacy to anti-trans rhetoric.

      As an aside, no, trans people who have been on hrt over a year do not have advantage in sports:

      https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

      • SpezCanLigmaBalls@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        20·
        1 year ago

        Thanks for the response. I guess I should’ve stated in my response it wasn’t about them giving the statement which in hindsight is dumb since that is what the thread was about.

        I see what you’re saying about the repercussions of them giving the republicans any sort of validity in what they are doing. I’m sorry about everything happening

        I appreciate the link. I read the “HECOX V LITTLE - SAFER DECLARATION” study that was in it and it pretty much answered my questions/doubt that I had.

        I take back what I said but I’ll leave it up to get what I deserve. I encourage anyone who had similar thoughts as mine to read this

        https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/hecox-v-little-safer-declaration

        Edit: should have used expert declaration instead of study

    • UlyssesT [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      47·
      1 year ago

      I don’t fuck with republicans at all so I’m a democrat obviously

      The difference between you and Republicans in this issue is that you don’t want to be called a Republican.

      but

      Everything before the “but” can be discarded as bullshit.

      I feel like I’m going to be ripped apart for this.

      “Please give me brave upvotes and Reddit gold for my totally not bigoted take.”

      but take politics out of it

      That translates as “make the politics invisible to people comfortable with the status quo.”

    • betelgeuse [comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      43·
      1 year ago

      Now, if someone could link a study to make me otherwise that’d be great.

      That’s not how burden of proof works. You’re not correct until other people prove you wrong. If you’re going to have a strong conviction on this, then it’s your duty to be informed. You should be able to back up what you claim. Otherwise you’re asking everyone else to be well-sourced except for yourself. You make the claim, you provide the studies.

      You can come at me at whatever angle but it’s a fact that males at birth genetically have more strength than females.
      For example, males at birth have stronger bones, tendons, ligaments, and mean height difference of 5.1 inches.

      What does that mean? Who is making newborns lift weights to test their strength? Males at birth barely have bones because they’re still forming and solidifying. What are you talking about? What is genetic strength?

            • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              31·
              1 year ago
              1. The legislative findings for H.B. 500 contend that even after receiving gender-affirming hormone therapy, women and girls who are transgender have “an absolute advantage” over non-transgender girls. This assertion is based on speculation and inferences that have not been borne out by any evidence.
              2. First, these arguments overlook the population of transgender girls and women who, as a result of puberty blockers at the start of puberty and gender affirming hormone therapy afterward, never go through a typical male puberty at all. These girls never experience the effects of high levels of testosterone and accompanying physiological changes. They go through puberty with the same levels of hormones as other girls and develop typically female physiological characteristics, including muscle and bone structure. Idaho’s law would bar them from participation in female athletics with absolutely no medical or scientific basis even based on the standards set forth in the legislative findings. …
              3. The legislative findings also state that “benefits that natural testosterone provides to male athletes is not diminished through the use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.” This is not true. As noted above, puberty blocking treatment completely blocks the production of testosterone and someone who has undergone both puberty blocking treatment and then gender affirming hormone therapy to initiate puberty consistent with gender identity would have none of the impacts of testosterone on the body that would be typical for a non- transgender male. It is also not true that gender-affirming therapy – even for those who have not undergone puberty blocking treatment – does nothing to minimize the impact of testosterone on the body. In fact, consistent use of testosterone blockers and estrogen has a significant impact on the body.
              4. The legislative findings also note that “Men generally have ‘denser, stronger bones, tendons, and ligaments’ and ‘larger hearts, greater lung volume per body mass, a higher red blood cell count, and higher hemoglobin” and suggest that such characteristics lead to athletic advantage and cannot be altered by sustained gender-affirming hormone therapy. However, the noted higher red blood cell count and higher hemoglobin are both testosterone dependent. They are both reduced as part of sustained gender-affirming hormone therapy. And there is currently no evidence that the remaining noted physiological characteristics actually are advantages when not accompanied by high levels of testosterone and corresponding skeletal muscle.

              Edit to the edit: More

              For example, the fact that transgender women who go through typically male puberty will tend to have larger bones than non-transgender women may actually be a disadvantage. Having larger bones without corresponding levels of testosterone and muscle mass would mean that a runner has a bigger body to propel with less power to propel it.
              54. Similarly, in a sport where athletes compete in different weight classes (e.g. weight lifting), the fact that a transgender woman has bigger bones may be a disadvantage because her ratio of muscle-to-bone will be much lower than the ratio for other women in her weight class who have smaller bones

              Edit to the edit to the edit: I see what happened, I got to the comment after it had been edited and OP put in the expert testimony. Removing snark but leaving in quotes. Good on you for changing your mind.

    • Thordros [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      41·
      1 year ago

      You should educate yourself on the biology before forming an opinion. Reality doesn’t mesh with how you’re interpreting things right now. I’m positive somebody better educated than either of us will chime in shortly with links to some helpful resources.

      • SpezCanLigmaBalls@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        4·
        1 year ago

        I welcome it, like I said in my post, I would like someone to change how I think about this with factual information. Can you please tell me where I’m wrong with stating the biological advantages of male vs female though in my example

        • NephewAlphaBravo [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          27·
          1 year ago

          I’m honestly not familiar with the details, but there are (and have been for a long time) rules about having to be X months or years into transition before competing. At that point the body has undergone enough changes that there’s no meaningful difference in athletic ability from a cis athlete.

          Even better, puberty blockers would completely short-circuit the “”“problem”“” by making it so people don’t have to go through the wrong puberty in the first place. I’m pretty sure the chuds know this and it’s half the reason they’re screaming to ban youth healthcare

          • SpezCanLigmaBalls@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
            1·
            1 year ago

            Well thank you for this information.

            In regard to the last statement wouldn’t this only be relevant to people who under the transformation at a young age?

            • NephewAlphaBravo [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              20·
              1 year ago

              Obviously, but that doesn’t matter. It’s just an especially stark contradiction and really gives up the game the bigots are playing here.

              Every attempt at a “”“solution”“” has another reason why it’s bad, so fuck the debate, the solution is full rights full stop. Just like every other goddamn time we’ve debated people’s rights.

            • Cummunism [they/them, he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              19·
              1 year ago

              In regard to the last statement wouldn’t this only be relevant to people who under the transformation at a young age?

              it seems like people are most worried about middle/high school sports, since (most?)pro sports don’t really allow multiple sexes to join. It’s part of the bullshit “we gotta protect the children!” that comes from people who are ok with immigrant children in cages. Conservatives cry about how parents should be in control, not schools, and then a parent allows their kid to transition so conservatives(and Democrats) throw a shitfit.

        • Thordros [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
          24·
          1 year ago

          I wish I could help you there. I used to be on your side on this issue, and somebody on Hexbear graciously sent me some resources to read. I was very wrong.

          I didn’t keep them, though. I’m sure somebody will come bully you a bit (this is very bullyable, sorry, I don’t make the rules), but also give you the links.

          • SpezCanLigmaBalls@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
            21·
            1 year ago

            Yeah I expect to get bullied on this but I hope someone can come in and provide me with the info you saw. Im not even close minded person either, im open to changing my view but everyone now a days on the internet never thinks people are open to changing their opinion. Hence, the bullying especially if they can’t present sources

    • KarlBarqs [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      41·
      1 year ago

      I’m all for transgender rights.

      I’m all for trans rights/

      I’ve got pride flags in my yard/

      I support those brave souls who step out of the closet/

      But when it comes to trans athletes, I think that’s a step too far/

      So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal

    • HornyOnMain@hexbear.netEnglish
      40·
      1 year ago

      Trans women on anti androgens actually have lower levels of testosterone than cis women which leads to increased muscle atrophy which actually makes the average post transition trans woman weaker so the strength thing is bullshit. We can see it represented in how few trans gold medallists there are.

      Idk about what it’s like in the US but in the UK the entire trans people in sports is being pushed as a liberal justification for general exclusion of trans people from society, the best example of this is the banning of all trans people from the women’s chess league - trans women have no biological advantage but they’re being banned anyway, and trans men are having their titles stripped from them too. The purpose isn’t fairness in sports, that’s just a justification for enforced transphobia.

    • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      38·
      1 year ago

      I get so sick of the “I’m concerned about this particular issue” people that have clearly not looked anywhere for info except the inside of their own head, or the words of bigots who are “just asking questions.”

      It would literally take a simple google search to find out that there isn’t a meaningful difference.

    • operacion_ogro [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      37·
      1 year ago

      I propose we make every NBA athlete participate in a bench press competition. If any athlete benches more than another athlete in the same weight class then it’s proof they are genetically stronger, and should be forced to play in a different league,

    • SexUnderSocialism [she/her]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
      33·
      1 year ago

      I’m sorry to say this, but like most cis people who like to talk about trans people’s bodies, you have no idea what you’re talking about. You talk about scientific facts, yet lack any understanding of what transitioning even does to a person’s body. You often see transphobes throwing around their “biologically male” line when talking about trans women, when it goes against all reality. You people with these “opinions” always leave out the fact that a trans person’s body goes through various changes that affect one’s biological composition. Hormone therapy doesn’t just change someone’s appearance. It also changes various biological processes, including bone density and loss of muscle mass. If you’d even do the most basic of research on trans people, you’d know that trans people talk about these things all the time, because they’re very obvious changes that you cannot ignore. As a matter of fact, the irony is that there are many trans women who have even lower testosterone levels than most cis women, due to how much androgen is being suppressed with HRT. All of this stuff is medically known.

      I feel like I’m going to be ripped apart for this. But again I just want to emphasis I’m all for transgender rights.

      Yeah, you’re going to be ripped apart for this, because your so called “support” for rights is purely performative if you’re undermining those very rights with misinformation.

      I know the republicans are the ones making this an issue but take politics out of it and it was going to come up regardless

      No, it wasn’t. Wtf? It’s never been an issue until conservatives maliciously turned it into an issue. How many cases of trans women dominating sports do you about? I would like to know. Trans people are a very small minority. The amount of trans people who play sports is even smaller. Out of that tiny tiny minority, how many even play on a professional level? This wasn’t going to become an issue. And you can’t take the politics out of it, because turning this into an issue when there’s a completely lack of evidence that the issue even exists, is very much a political act.

    • cynetri (he/any)@midwest.socialEnglish
      31·
      1 year ago

      I think it would be more fair for you to provide sources for the claim that amabs are naturally more athletic before asking people to debunk it.

    • Washburn [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
      24·
      1 year ago

      Trans women have been able to compete in the correct categories in the Olympics for several of the games now. I think like one trans woman has, in the weightlifting category in the 2020 games, and she didn’t place.

      Trans women in sports is not common. That’s why a trans swimmer coming in like 3rd in one of the six races she’s competing in that day is a weeks-long conservative hate-fest. That’s why an individual trans person competing at all is sometimes newsworthy. Often, when suits are filed against school districts because transgender athletes are competing in their proper categories, the suits are filed against like 3 people (and one time they were just using the court system to be shitty to one literal child). Some suits are even dropped, because everyone they’re targeting graduates.

      The idea of cis men pretending to be trans women to dominate women’s sports is a manufactured reason to demonize a handful of specific transgender people and build animosity towards trans people in general.

    • proletarian_girlboss@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
      24·
      1 year ago

      I implore the misses, the good sirs of our day and age, regarding the mixing of the Cisgenders and the Transgenders, I implore them great weariness.

      For you see, dearest members of our Reddit Community, fellow liberally minded members of the audience, the Female Genome is fragile in form compared to the Male. Often times the AFAB chromosome forms the shape of a gentle flower or teacup (much too small to indulge in the morning beverage, to my dismay).

      In addition, athletes are born equipped with the muscles they shall employ in their respective professional arenas! I am certain we have all seen dazzling images of the Muscle Baby Training Facilities.

      With this knowledge, I am with absolute certainty that “hormone replacement therapy” has no effect whatsoever on this musculature.

      Thusly, the following conclusion must be made: The mixing of the Transgender and the Cisgender threatens the entire art of sport and recreational roughousing that has captivated our civilized society for many a year.

    • regul [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
      23·
      1 year ago

      here’s a novel option for you and all other people: go back to not caring at all about kids’ sports because it straight up does not matter

    • Sephitard9001 [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      19·
      1 year ago

      At my place of employment, there’s a women who is younger but bigger than me in every way who could kick my shit in. There’s also a man who is smaller than me in every way I could throw around like a small child.

      So clearly the issue here is not our dicks n’ puss, buddy

    • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
      19·
      1 year ago

      mean height difference of 5.1 inches.

      Margo Dydek is a 2.18m/7’2’’ tall cis woman who played basketball, does that not give her a genetic advantage over shorter basketball players? Should she be disqualified from competing with other women?

      I think there should be an entire different league in its own where the option is there for the mix of transgender and non transgender to compete.

      In many cases, there’s already a league like that - it’s called the men’s league. Of course, due to the wave of transphobic laws purportedly aimed at “fairness,” there are many cases of trans men being forced to compete in women’s leagues against their will. Because it’s not about fairness at all, it’s about hurting trans people, and the reason this is where the focus is is that it’s currently where the line is. If they win on this, they will shift focus to attacking us on a different front.

      You don’t really get to choose where the line gets drawn or the specific, nuanced policy that gets implemented. You just get to influence, ever so slightly, which way the current flows. Maybe we could have a conversation if there wasn’t a large, committed movement trying to kill us, but as it stands, it’s vital that we don’t give them a single inch, because they will take a mile.

      Now, if someone could link a study to make me otherwise that’d be great.

      Here’s one. Though tbh I haven’t looked that closely at the data because I think it’s largely irrelevant, especially when it comes to school sports.

      The point of sports, especially for kids, is to encourage exercise and socialization, and trans kids are particularly in need of those things, because those factors are essential to mental health. Even without the government going out of its way to fuck us, trans people are already more limited in what spaces we feel safe in. I think anyone who cares more about the fairness of competitions than they do about the physical and psychological well-being of children in a vulnerable group needs to seriously re-evaluate their priorities.