I realize I’m bringing a bunch of down votes on myself with the following text, that’s ok because I’m still trying to form an opinion on this topic for me.
I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they’re Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly basically if someone is dissatisfied with the actions of the state Israel then they are called Antisemitic.
Critics of the concept argue that it is used in practice to silence political debate and freedom of speech regarding the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and that it trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, by conflating political anti-Zionism and criticism of the Israeli government with racism, condoning violence against Jews, or the Holocaust. Further critical arguments include the inclusion of race within legitimate criticism of Israel to be too narrow.
When it comes to racism it’s pretty clear that you can criticize someone for what they do without being racist, but not criticize them for what they are, because then you’re racist. On the other hand somehow criticizing a government for their actions which just so happens to be a government which governs a lot of Jews seems to be automatic antisemitism, even though the same criticism applied on other governments seems to not be seen as problematic.
On top of the whole thing I’m also German and in Germany this phenomenon seems to be much more extrem compared to other countries. I understand that this is because of the German guilt.
There are anti-zionists who are also antisemites, but anti-zionism isn’t antisemitism itself. Try to have a nuanced conversation about such a heated topic… Lately i’ve been seeing people just straight up deny antisemitic anti-zionists even exists. And obviously the people who think they are the same thing. It’s like people are suddenly unable to understand the concept of venn diagrams.
The problem is at least in Germany that the nuance is literally banned by the government. Demonstrations in support of the Palestinian victims of Israels attacks and blockade are getting banned in fear of antisemitism. Educational entities proclaim that criticism of the shape of the Israeli state are considered antisemitism as much as demands to give back the land of the displaced Palestinians, as these are considered “attacks on the existential right of Israel”.
I tried to find that term and it doesn’t seem to exist in the english languaged discourse. Also i couldn’t find anything that actually gives specific states a specific right to exist. People have the right to exist and be sovereign, but this is not tied to any specific state. And from my understanding the sovereignity of one people cannot be used as a reason to take away the sovereignity of another people.
The people who proudly claim themselves “anti-zionist” IRL are almost always anti-semites if you scratch the surface. Not because anti-zionism is inherently so, but because the term has become a dog-whistle for “I watched too many conspiracy youtube videos”.
Also it’s a weirdly religiously charged word to use; we don’t use a specific word for Russia’s goals for Ukraine or China’s goals for Tibet or Taiwan. So of course the use of a religiously charged word begets accusations of religious persecution.
“I am against Israel’s apartheid state and illegal colonization of the West Bank” -> perfectly sane take
“I am anti-zionist” -> oh my god what kind of cookadoodledoo rant is this motherfucker about to get into
So yeah, I’d stay clear of “zionism” as a concept entirely. While it is an integral part of the history of Israel, it is not necessary to understand that to criticize Israel’s actions in the 21st century. And if you’re going to pull put the “but the zionists” card, you better know about domestic Israeli politics a lot better than I do (which if you don’t have a reasonable reason to do so like being Israeli, is again a red flag for an obsession with “the jews”).
Germany is prone to dogmatism. There is a culture of putting things in boxes of right or wrong and then signaling it. Besides, skipping to judgement is easier than trying to unravel complications and risking being questioned in a hot seat. Spirit of being risk-averse.
"I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they’re Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly ".
What else was that supposed to mean?
"I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they’re Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly ". What else was that supposed to mean?
But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly basically if someone is dissatisfied with the actions of the state Israel then they are called Antisemitic.
Not OP but: I mean if you bothered to read the sentence you quoted to the end you’d have your question answered
And what is that supposed to mean? Hamas is antisemitic. The place where he sees people using the word antisemite is the same place where the Hamas is being called out.
The place where he sees people using the word antisemite is the same place where the Hamas is being called out.
No. This is your assumption from your limited bubble. In his limited bubble there might be people calling legitimate israel critique antisemitic. You just hopped in this thread and claimed they were talking about Hamas apologetics.
Anti-semitism (anti-jewish racism) is real. To claim otherwise is to deny a whole history of atrocities, as well as ongoing phenomena. Random Jewish people even completely unrelated to anything to do with Israel are attacked all the time. Neofascists are using clear antisemitic tropes and dogwhistles, even when they are not straight up talking about Jewish space lasers putting fires in California.
Anti-semitism is the prejudice, systemic and personal, against Jews. While etymology sometimes can clarify nuances in meaning, it is not necessarily semantically meaningful. The word “semitic” is either an entirely linguistic one (semitic languages), i.e., narrowly technical in a scientific field, or it makes reference to outdated pseudo scientific racist theories, in a list that includes things like the Aryan race and the Mediterranean race.
Finally: bullshit like what you wrote is either perpetuated by bona fide antisemite fascists or by people who completely misguidedly think that this way they are somehow helping the Palestinian cause (they are not, in fact, they are hurting it).
I realize I’m bringing a bunch of down votes on myself with the following text, that’s ok because I’m still trying to form an opinion on this topic for me.
I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they’re Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly basically if someone is dissatisfied with the actions of the state Israel then they are called Antisemitic.
Perhaps I was misunderstanding the word, so I checked the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism and there it’s not super clear either, but then I found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism it appears that I indeed was wrong and that New-Antisemitism seems to be any criticism of the Israeli government.
In this case I’m with the critics which say:
When it comes to racism it’s pretty clear that you can criticize someone for what they do without being racist, but not criticize them for what they are, because then you’re racist. On the other hand somehow criticizing a government for their actions which just so happens to be a government which governs a lot of Jews seems to be automatic antisemitism, even though the same criticism applied on other governments seems to not be seen as problematic.
On top of the whole thing I’m also German and in Germany this phenomenon seems to be much more extrem compared to other countries. I understand that this is because of the German guilt.
There are anti-zionists who are also antisemites, but anti-zionism isn’t antisemitism itself. Try to have a nuanced conversation about such a heated topic… Lately i’ve been seeing people just straight up deny antisemitic anti-zionists even exists. And obviously the people who think they are the same thing. It’s like people are suddenly unable to understand the concept of venn diagrams.
The problem is at least in Germany that the nuance is literally banned by the government. Demonstrations in support of the Palestinian victims of Israels attacks and blockade are getting banned in fear of antisemitism. Educational entities proclaim that criticism of the shape of the Israeli state are considered antisemitism as much as demands to give back the land of the displaced Palestinians, as these are considered “attacks on the existential right of Israel”.
I tried to find that term and it doesn’t seem to exist in the english languaged discourse. Also i couldn’t find anything that actually gives specific states a specific right to exist. People have the right to exist and be sovereign, but this is not tied to any specific state. And from my understanding the sovereignity of one people cannot be used as a reason to take away the sovereignity of another people.
The people who proudly claim themselves “anti-zionist” IRL are almost always anti-semites if you scratch the surface. Not because anti-zionism is inherently so, but because the term has become a dog-whistle for “I watched too many conspiracy youtube videos”.
Also it’s a weirdly religiously charged word to use; we don’t use a specific word for Russia’s goals for Ukraine or China’s goals for Tibet or Taiwan. So of course the use of a religiously charged word begets accusations of religious persecution.
“I am against Israel’s apartheid state and illegal colonization of the West Bank” -> perfectly sane take
“I am anti-zionist” -> oh my god what kind of cookadoodledoo rant is this motherfucker about to get into
So yeah, I’d stay clear of “zionism” as a concept entirely. While it is an integral part of the history of Israel, it is not necessary to understand that to criticize Israel’s actions in the 21st century. And if you’re going to pull put the “but the zionists” card, you better know about domestic Israeli politics a lot better than I do (which if you don’t have a reasonable reason to do so like being Israeli, is again a red flag for an obsession with “the jews”).
I’ve been banned from the /de Subreddit for pointing that out as well.
I was in germany last week and was quite surprised to see all the israeli flags around. But from a historical perpective i do get it
Germany is prone to dogmatism. There is a culture of putting things in boxes of right or wrong and then signaling it. Besides, skipping to judgement is easier than trying to unravel complications and risking being questioned in a hot seat. Spirit of being risk-averse.
New antisemitism is not antisemitism. New -ism often means -ism on steroids.
My guy they are quite the textbook example of antisemites https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
I just wonder what part of my text made you think I’m talking about Hamas.
"I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they’re Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly ". What else was that supposed to mean?
Not OP but: I mean if you bothered to read the sentence you quoted to the end you’d have your question answered
And what is that supposed to mean? Hamas is antisemitic. The place where he sees people using the word antisemite is the same place where the Hamas is being called out.
No. This is your assumption from your limited bubble. In his limited bubble there might be people calling legitimate israel critique antisemitic. You just hopped in this thread and claimed they were talking about Hamas apologetics.
It means that now you can’t criticise Israel actions without being called an antisemite, even tho you don’t care about them being jews.
By whom? I only ever see people crying about this. Never seen a person being called antisemite when they werent. Only Tankies and edgy contrarians.
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Removed by mod
Both of the things you said are bullshit.
Anti-semitism (anti-jewish racism) is real. To claim otherwise is to deny a whole history of atrocities, as well as ongoing phenomena. Random Jewish people even completely unrelated to anything to do with Israel are attacked all the time. Neofascists are using clear antisemitic tropes and dogwhistles, even when they are not straight up talking about Jewish space lasers putting fires in California.
Anti-semitism is the prejudice, systemic and personal, against Jews. While etymology sometimes can clarify nuances in meaning, it is not necessarily semantically meaningful. The word “semitic” is either an entirely linguistic one (semitic languages), i.e., narrowly technical in a scientific field, or it makes reference to outdated pseudo scientific racist theories, in a list that includes things like the Aryan race and the Mediterranean race.
Finally: bullshit like what you wrote is either perpetuated by bona fide antisemite fascists or by people who completely misguidedly think that this way they are somehow helping the Palestinian cause (they are not, in fact, they are hurting it).