• yukichigai@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    I mean what’s worse: using a human shield, or deciding “nah fuck them kids shoot through them anyway.”

    • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own? Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?

      • rosymind@leminal.space
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        1 year ago

        Yeah, this is the problem I’m having with people picking sides. It’s a giant crap-pile of the worst of humanity. People act like there’s a good side. Nah, everything’s a mess of generational hatred and I hate it all.

        There needs to be a cease-fire. Hamas needs to release all hostages and then be permanently removed from power in Gaza, and Israel needs to help the Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed, burry their dead with dignity and respect, and heavily compensate the families of those who have died.

        The whole thing is out of control

          • rosymind@leminal.space
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            1 year ago

            That may be so, but Israel clearly has the upper hand right now. It’s within their power to put the breaks on. I understand the depth of their rage after what Hamas did, but they shouldn’t soothe their sorrow with the blood of innocents

                • kbotc@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Your comment makes it sound like you’d be hunky dory with October 7th, and then the Israeli response of they had proportional militaries.

          • rosymind@leminal.space
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            1 year ago

            For sure. It’s hard to know what’s true and what isn’t. All we know is what the media tells us. Hopefully we’ll know at some point

        • Zorque@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Interesting that you mentioned the removal of Hamas from power but not the current Isreali government.

          • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            If polling is accurate, they will be voted out soon enough. To remove Hamas one needs the ammo box, as they have removed the ballot box as an option.

            • EatYouWell@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              True, but it doesn’t require killing civilians to accomplish. Just assassinate the Hammas leadership until there’s no one left who wants to risk it. Mossad is pretty good at tracking people down.

              Cut off the head and the body will die.

              But, that’s pretending that Israel just wants to protect itself instead of looking for an excuse to genocide.

            • Zorque@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              And the IDF will bomb as many civilians as they need to to remove them from power!

          • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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            1 year ago

            The government of Israel is at least somewhat democratic. That makes removing it a bit more thorny than removing an organization like Hamas, because one either has to effectively just force an election there, which carries the risk that the same people (or people with the same ideology, if you forbid the specific people currently in power) might just win it and keep things the same, or replace the entire system with something that isn’t democratic, which is generally viewed as a bad thing in itself. It’s also move salvageable though for the same reason: there’s little chance that someone wanting peace and resolution will somehow take over Hamas, it would be antithetical to what their organization even is, but the policies of a government like Isreal’s at least have the potential to dramatically shift if people wanting those things take hold of it.

          • rosymind@leminal.space
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            1 year ago

            Sure that can change, too. I don’t live there, so it didn’t come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.

            I can’t imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don’t live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.

            It’s messy

            • Zorque@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Indeed it is messy. But “removing” Hamas from power is about as easy as “removing” Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.

              The problem isn’t as easily fixed as “just take Hamas… and put it over there”.

              • kbotc@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Bibi can be removed via an election. There literally does not exist a method of removing Hamas other than violence, either from the people of Gaza or an external force.

      • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        There’s an infinite spectrum between “not shooting children” and “letting the other guy shoot yours”

        Also, this “oh we’re so much better and civilized” act really falls short when it has to be explained to you why shooting children is still bad even when you do it.

      • yukichigai@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        False dilemma. There are ways to react that don’t involve shooting children.

        Even if there weren’t, I wouldn’t say “yeah shoot some children.”

        • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          You’re misrepresenting my position. It’s, “yeah definitely shoot the terrorist, try to avoid shooting their hostages if you can.”

          • yukichigai@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            My dude, you’re arguing that a certain amount of shooting children is okay. If you can’t see how this is a problem I don’t know what else to say.

      • Makfreeman@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Wouldn’t proportionality be a thing here? Reprisals would be acceptable if they did not result in a disproportionate loss of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems like Palestinian children’s lives are much cheaper than Israeli lives. I hate saying it because I think all children deserve protection regardless of the actions of the people in power, be it hamas or idf.

        • tryptaminev 🇵🇸 🇺🇦 🇪🇺@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          Also the comparision isnt Palestinian children vs Israeli children. It is Palestinian children vs. grown armed men and women aka Soldiers.

          Israel could have worked with insurgencies to target Hamas specifically, without having to bomb everything to rubble. That would have risked more soldiers lives though.

          So they are weighting their soldiers lifes at a rate of about 200 Palestinains of which 80 are children.

          For comparision. In WW2 about 4 Ally soldiers died for one civillian death in the Axis and about 6 Ally civillians, mostly Chinese, Polish, Ukranian and Russian, died for every Axis soldier. So the war of total annhilation, with death squads eradicating entire villages and concentration camps for mass murder still had a much lower rate of civillian to military deaths.

      • running_ragged@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        But they’re not. Unless you’re claiming all Palestinian kids are Hamas, and then if you are, or if your ready to punish an entire people for the actions of an extremist group, you’re committing war crimes and are well on your way to Genocide.

        So maybe a more tactical approach would be better for everyone.

      • 257m@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Hamas barely has any power against Israel and two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing children is off limits period. Dosen’t matter who is hiding behind them. Also the children are not Hamas’s kids. If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.

        • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Hamas barely has any power against Israel

          Indeed. It would be nice if they would acknowledge the reality of their situation. Maybe they would release the hostages, lay down arms, and sue for peace, if they acknowledged as you do that they don’t have any hope against winning against Israel with violence.

          the children are not Hamas’s kids.

          The children that they hide behind are Palestinian children. Hamas is the government of Gaza and every citizen there is under their jurisdiction and control until they are deposed; i.e., “theirs.”

          two wrongs don’t make a right

          War is always ethically shitty, but I see no other option for Israel at this point. If they don’t meet violence with violence and achieve meaningful objectives to keep themselves safe in response to Hamas’ mass slaughter, it’s just begging for more of the same in the future. War is what happens when deterrence fails, perhaps this will serve as an example to those who would consider attacking Israel next time of the consequences.

          If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.

          Israel’s intention is not to shoot children being used as shields. It is to neutralize the one shooting from behind them, even if there’s significant risk of hitting a human shield. This devalues the strategy and discourages such people from using human shields in the future. It’s the same reason one does not negotiate for hostages, it encourages future hostage taking. You let this be a viable strategy that deters reprisal, expect more of it.

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Hamas barely has any power against Israel

          I mean this is demonstrably untrue considering the attack where they killed and kidnapped hundreds of innocents.

          That doesn’t make Israel’s response even remotely justifiable of course. But Hamas is not some plucky rebel group throwing pebbles. They’re dangerous and need to be removed from power in a method that doesn’t kill babies.

      • bjornsno@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Yes? What kind of question is that? If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?

        • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          really? you would let them continue killing your kids? tell me you don’t have kids without telling me you don’t have kids 😆

          • bjornsno@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            How good of you to put words in my mouth. I would not kill your children if you killed mine. You’re fair game but I’m not gonna shoot your children and any other children nearby to get to you. This is not a tricky moral question.

            • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              question was:

              What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own?

              and your reply was

              yes

              albeit with a question mark, but you followed by explicitly refuting the “no” answer

              If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?

              what exactly am i putting in your mouth?

              • bjornsno@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                I don’t know how to explain to you that it’s wrong to kill their kids even if they’ve killed your kids. Especially when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write.

                • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  even if they’ve killed your kids.

                  they have killed your kids and THEY ARE GOING TO KILL MORE YOUR KIDS.

                  when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write

                  i am literally quoting you. what is there to misconstrue?

                  • bjornsno@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    Your still don’t get to kill kids! I don’t know what’s so hard for you to understand about that or why you want so badly for it to be mostly justifiable to kill kids. You’re saying that because of how morally heinous it is to kill kids you should be allowed to kill their kids. Do you not see that?

                    You quote me and then you attribute meanings I don’t profess. I do not say you let them keep murdering, I say you do not get to murder children to stop them and frankly again why the fuck do you want to?

        • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?

          Yes

          Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own. I doubt that will be much of a consolation for your countrymen that you’re willing to sacrifice to violence. Expect more human shields in the future now that you’ve proven the tactic so effective.

          What kind of question is that?

          A moral dilemma.

          If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?

          If you answered no to that I’d say you’re honestly assessing the grim realities of war, where the goal is to pacify the enemy without sacrificing your own people, even if that may result in collateral damage.

          • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own.

            the question wasn’t about your citizens, it was about your kids. which makes his answer even more laughable.

            • DarkGamer@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably. All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.

              • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably

                no, you cannot, read the conversation again.

                most people have closer relationship to their own kids than to some other random co-citizen. so if some clown claims, for a sake of his argument, that he would be willing to sacrifice his own kids to protect… literally anyone else, you know he is a moron, or a liar. or both.

                All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.

                sure, but that was not the point of my remark.