just so this doesn’t overwhelm our front page too much, i think now’s a good time to start consolidating discussions. existing threads will be kept up, but unless a big update comes let’s try to keep what’s happening in this thread instead of across 10.
developments to this point:
- Apollo for Reddit is shutting down
- Reddit is Fun will also shut down
- Reddit CEO (/u/spez) is going to hold a AMA about the API update
- Sync has announced it is shutting down
- ReddPlanet has announced it is shutting down
- Reddit creates an API exemption for noncommercial accessibility apps
- /r/videos is planning to shut down indefinitely, beginning June 11
- A subreddit dedicated to migrating to kbin.social has been closed by Reddit
The Verge is on it as usual, also–here’s their latest coverage (h/t @dirtmayor@beehaw.org):
other media coverage:
Reddit just feels dirty to me now, not in a good dirty way… Just dirty, I want nothing to do with it. I see no coming back from this even if the backlash leads to Reddit reversing the decisions. Kind of new the IPO would do something like this. Looking forward to seeing this place bloom.
I predict that as the blackout goes into full swing, Reddit is going to start taking over major subreddits from their mods to keep the site going. Things are going to become ugly very fast.
Iirc one of the mods said that the blackout was designed to prevent that. If it’s 2 days, they likely won’t bother taking them over. But an indefinite lock down they probably will. Even then though, that disruption in content will likely be too large to handle for most users
If it’s only temporary then I as an admin would just wait it out, then go about my comically evil business. Reddit staff can’t realistically moderate the entire site, so the best way to get the message across is to stop moderating and let things burn until the bean counters can’t take the heat. Just my opinion, not that I want that to happen.
I just say screw it and leave. But that’s coming from more of a lurker on Reddit.
Oh I have, I only put off deleting my account so I could tell spez to 🖕himself at the AMA.
I’ve been wondering the same thing.
We’ve all said for years that we’ve seen a slow decline but never knew when it was time to leave. Now all of a sudden here we have the giant sign saying “We’ve gone full corporate and don’t care about the users anymore”
yeah this isn’t such a huge thing on it’s own (tough it is shitty), it’s this combined with the years of other steady decline in a thousand small ways. Most people on reddit have agreed for some time now that the site has gone to shit, but there haven’t really been viable alternatives or enough of a reason to pick up stakes and leave. Now there is, and hopefully enough people leave for good to Lemmy, Kbin, or others so that the change can stick
Amen.
100% too gross for me
I kinda feel the same way. I’ve used the official Reddit app before, and I might’ve considered using a modded version of the official client, but I just feel gross even having a Reddit account after what they’ve done. Despite the fact that I use old.reddit as well, once Apollo is gone I reckon I’ll delete my account.
A lot of mucky feeling about it has been partitioned by Apollo for me. I specifically didn’t want to interact with online politics so I set up tons of keyword filters and blocked honestly a few thousand subreddits. I turned off awards and things. I could actually browse r/all and see cool and unique content. It felt really close to classic Reddit and it insulated me from a lot of the passing drama.
Drama around the thing I used to make that space for myself was inescapable. The entire saga, from the evasiveness on details in the initial post, to the insane pricing, to the blackmail accusations make it impossible not to see how rotten the leadership is at the very top. Even if all the API stuff gets reset (it won’t) I can’t feel good about Reddit anymore.
At least the Internet Historian video about this will be absolutely lit.
I think this reply by spez has been badly overlooked:
“the LLM explosion put all Reddit data use at the forefront”.
What he means here is that earlier this year the board realised they were sitting on a massive gold mine, and their single focus right now is to exploit that as ruthlessly as possible. Jacking up the prices to access Reddit data to eye-watering levels is intended to fleece desperate AI bros, and this may well be the only revenue stream Reddit cares about in the future.
The fact that they have put no thought or care into managing the damage that this does to third party apps and to their own reputation with the Reddit user base tells me something else too. Why bother being a good custodian of a community website that has never made a profit, when you could live off selling access to one of the largest bodies of good quality human-generated text-based content out there?
Do they even care if Reddit goes to shit in the future? Maybe not, especially now we are beginning to realise how easy it is for careful bots to poison the conversations with AI-generated replies.
In my opinion, we’re reaching a moment where people are realizing that having lots of users doesn’t matter that much if you can’t monetize them. We took a lot of services for granted that maybe don’t make any financial sense, which probably only survived because both the company and investors hoped that as long you could attract users, you could monetize them later.
I think that “later” is now.
Today I noticed that youtube has a new feature that unlocks more bitrate, but only for premium users (there’s two 1080p options, one normal and another with more bitrate). I’m expecting that these social medias and other tech companies will try to monetize us further
Yeah exactly. I think what we need is decentralization and a move back to smaller hobbyist message boards - the costs of running such communities is more sustainable for individual owners and they are not so big that their owners would look to sell them out.
That’s certainly my hope for the federated model. Scope and scale have been issues since the advent of social media, which encouraged users to centralize all of their interactions in one spot. One hundred people shooting the shit on a specific interest will always be a better experience than orders of magnitude more people who know nothing of the context spouting off to feel good about themselves.
I found the quality of my Reddit interactions had gone so far downhill that I took a month off to start the year. I’d gotten sucked into the belief that upvotes == quality of what I was writing, which creates perverse motivations completely unrelated to being more informed about the world.
I mean upvotes are related to how old a post is.
Anyways I don’t expect places like Lemmy to fix the ills of social media - eventually running something like this will cost their owners too much money and something will have to give. Also moderation has always been an issue, even with the message boards of old.
Agreed on the last point. That’s part of what I was alluding to in terms of scope and scale. The smaller communities from early internet days (my experience overlaps with the time of BBSs but never included them) were pretty light on moderation. If you were a dick on IRC, you got booted. If you spouted off about politics in places that weren’t about politics on phpBB, you were ignored then booted. These days, that sort of dynamic has moved to Discord, with people expecting that they should be able to say whatever they want, wherever they want everywhere else.
But I feel you’re begging the question on funding. The ownership and profit model is the problem. User subscriptions can solve that funding issue in a vacuum; reality tends to be a bit messier, but I’m hoping we’ll find that it works.
Well on the Lemmy subreddit, some people are already complaining about moderation issues here, and how you can’t block federated servers you don’t want to see individually - that is up to the federated server itself. Honestly, while Lemmy seems cool, I can see issues arising as it scales, especially with regards to moderation.
Beehaw seems to be fine, but some users have explained that they take issue with Lemmy.ml’s moderation - chiefly from the main developer who created this platform to begin with. And that’s troubling too. For example, on Lemmy.ml, any talk about Russia or China (or anything similar) is banned. You can’t safely talk about the war in Ukraine here without getting banned from the main federated server.
As Lemmy gets bigger there will be more and larger communities that aren’t on Lemmy.ml, and if you’re worried about the software itself, aside from being open source, there’s also already a fediverse alternative called kbin. You can even used it to follow Lemmy communities if you want.
The whole point of the fediverse is that it can’t reaaly get screwed up by a small number of people.
I’m versed in ActivityPub to the extent the Twitter imbroglio landed Mastodon on Ars and Techdirt, so … not very well. But wouldn’t someone who really wants control over which instances they see be able to spin up one of their own and then just not let people join?
I guess. I’m kind of new to whole idea of federation myself, never jumped on Mastodon, for example. But we will see as Lemmy and its federated instances scale up.
Yep, can always make your own instance and look at whatever instances you want
@rimlogger @tango_octogono there is good argument to be made that these “unified services” were created to monetize them in first place.
Said that, federation as a concept of new era of social networking is good foundation. Hope it sticks and we work out quirks and people learn how to use it.That’s what I’ve been thinking, as well – if a message board (or any other service) doesn’t reach that critical user mass where it’s no longer sustainable, then there’s less chances of it selling out
It’s because of market conditions. Low interest -> Companies spend money and chase growth High interest -> Companies try to monetize users
No more low interest rates…
@tango_octogono @alyaza YouTube basically spams ads and begs to sign up for Premium.
Thanks to adblock i never see those on PC. Wouldn’t dream of opening u-toob on mobile though…
I use YouTube almost exclusively on mobile and TV devices, but I also filter my DNS requests to block things that I don’t like.
Something that seems to be missing: Someone is working on an API compatibility/translation layer to help in porting reddit apps to lemmy and have already got some basic features working in RedReader. The RedReader (opensource Android reddit client) dev has expressed some interest in this along with the user base.
https://v.redd.it/xzvh8kih8d4b1
I’ve been tangentially involved in this. I think if any of the bigger instance operators were to contact derivator to see what can be done to host a gateway, that would really help.
Since it’s a proxy you’d want a reliable entity to host it, who you trust with your credentials. And the only entities who currently make sense would be the lemmy instance owners themselves. Eg. if I’m already connecting to beehaw.org or lemmy.world, I would be okay to point apollo or baconreader to redditapi.beehaw.org.
See here for a list of how people can help: https://github.com/derivator/tafkars/tree/main/tafkars-lemmy
That is awesome :) Thank you for chipping in. I wasn’t aware it was this far along already!
I’ve been enjoying using RedReader so far, and I’d love to see it switch to Lemmy instances
Me too. The app has a classic feel to it that isn’t replicated by other apps.
A lot more customizable too. I love the ability to hide scores, upvote/downvote buttons, reply button, etc.
Exactly! My favourite is swipe to vote up/down!
Sharing this because it should be shared
I’ve been getting used to lemmy for the last couple days, going back and forth between here and reddit and following what’s going on, and I think I just realized something that I hadn’t been able to put into words.
The lemmy community feels responsive and fun to talk to, and I think that’s because the people who are coming here from reddit are the people who are motivated to communicate, and are people who care about the topics in each community. That’s pretty cool.
I keep sitting here waiting for Reddit to backtrack. But it keeps not happening.
Reddit isn’t going back. Even if they did I’m sure they just convinced multiple users to not go back. I hope the blackout and tons of users moving will have a big enough impact to devalue Reddit even if somewhat.
I predict Reddit backing out, lowering the API price to something realistic, and then everyone forgets what happened, like every other time something like this has happened.
If they choose to lower the API price after all the 3rd party apps have already been disconnected for a day or two, it’s already too late. At that point the damage is done and there’s no going back
yeah but people are addicted and will forget. most users here will eventually return to reddit, that’s just how it works.
It depends on how much people care about UX.
Some people don’t care at all. They’re probably very casual users, and the default app is good enough for them. They will continue using Reddit as if nothing happened, but they’ll notice that a lot of subs are gone for good and junk to quality post ratio has changed. That’s not really a problem as long as these people can get their cat gifs.
Some people care a bit, and they will be slightly bothered by the significant drop in UX and the quality of all subs. These people will probably spend less time, since Reddit is unable to provide what it used to.
Some people care a great deal and they will be gone by the end of the month. Actually some have already deleted their account.
I predict that Reddit has already lost a lot of users for good. Only reason I’m going back is to promote lemmy over there
I really hope not. Switching to a new platform has made me realize how much I wasn’t being social on a social media site. Because of all the toxicity I was only going to a few subreddits. I’ve already created my first community here in Lemmy and I’m commenting and engaging again.
if there can be a coordinated migration to the fediverse during blackout, that’d be the dream.
wouldn’t it be amazing when all of spez’s attempts to make reddit look pretty for shareholders completely fail so they ruined their community for absolutely nothing
Yeah I think this is going to be the event that finally causes a critical mass exodus. I mean, digg tried to keep going after the migration to reddit, but it was never the same again. Reddit is dead, it’s only a matter of time until it’s a called.
Question:
How do you address the concerns of users who feel that Reddit has become increasingly profit-driven and less focused on community engagement?
We’ll continue to be profit-driven until profits arrive. Unlike some of the 3P apps, we are not profitable.
This is where I lost all hope.
There’d be all kinds of better ways to go about making profit / becoming financially sustainable. This is blatant ignorance and mismanagement, without hearing or seeing anything. Complete mismanagement.
I’m doubtful because I feel like the business goons did the math, found the expected profit of killing 3rd party apps and taking the backlash was higher than keeping the status quo, and have committed to the more profitable option.
There was a response on the AMA where u/spez said “Reddit would always be profit driven and currently does not make a profit. Unlike TP apps”
You can no longer see this on the Reddit app, it is obscured in someway. Perhaps because of the potential impact for the IPO?
He is essentially saying, “we are unable to make a profit, so our plan is to use someone else’s profit to make money.”
What I think he’s going for is sympathy points, but he did not read that back lol
I think at point it’s the sole goal of Reddit to pump their ad revenue numbers until the IPO.
I would not be surprised if a lawyer jumped in and said that revealing even profitability vs not is something they should do through official channels.
He just admitted, just as they’re trying to IPO, that they’re still not profitable. If these third party apps that make up a fraction of their users – their most engaged, active users, by the way – are the difference between profit and loss, they need a better model.
If it is true than he literally shot himself in the foot.
Just like you said if it is true that the “1-3%” of the users that use 3rd party apps (by spez his word) can actually provide a profit for the 3rd party apps and the 90+% that uses official reddit channels still cannot… then they have a very big problem.
I wouldn’t even be surprised though. His whole demeanor reeks of jealousy and contempt.
The fact that a 3rd party app was actually featured on the Apple event multiple times and name dropped multiple times as “the” way to use reddit, has to absolutely sting as hell.
Edit; experiencing some lag ;)
deleted by /u/spez
deleted by creator
Hilarious I can still see it on Apollo. I did notice while refreshing on spez’s comments that on that particular comment his name changed from red (normal admin color) to black, and then a few minutes later red again. I don’t know what it means, but it smells.
I also noticed the time posted got fuckity on that comment. I’m looking at comments sorted newest on top but the time of that comment is out of order
The AMA doesn’t even show up on spez’s profile. Lmfao.
do you have a direct link to this one
While tangentially related, if this shouldnt be here, let me know.
Reddit also appears to be experimenting with disabling mobile web access to circumvent ads.
They really want to cram those hegetsus ads down people’s throats. I hope everyone migrates away to different options. Leave them holding turds.
Reddit confirmed for being into gaping Jesus.
all of these changes reek of desperation. i’m deeply curious as to what’s going on behind the scenes at reddit HQ
They’re all trying on monocles and top hats
oh for fuck’s sake.
I’m glad at least one site is taking off the kid gloves with the title.
Lol. This sounds like a dig at spez.
Well, the AMA was a shining success…
The way that guy gaslit the Appolo dev, and doubles down that the Appolo dev is the bad guy. Even though the recording is clear that the reddit ceo is straight up lying. Imaging working with, or having to interact with someone who so easily lies like that. Shameless
It’s hilarious really. Christian has the fucking receipts. Spez can say what he wants, but it’s meaningless drivel.
Also, I just looked into the AMA and…he only gave 14 answers 🙄
To their credit, there were other admins too!
Collectively, they
answeredresponded to a whopping additional 5 comments!I may miss the community, but I definitely won’t miss reddit.
The answers were all copy & paste canned ones. No wonder
Oblig. fuck u/spez
Seconded fuck /u/spez
It is hilarious to see this happening. Option A, he could have just shut up, released a press statement and waited till this blew over, he didn’t do that. Option B would have been to do an AMA, engage with people and say nice but meaningless things to placate people and do whatever he wants in private, he didn’t do that either.
Instead he choses to host an AMA, copy pastes canned responses, edits his comment when someone caught it, ditches the canned response when a question is asked about the Apollo thing and doubles down, and finally leaves after answering 14 questions.
You really can’t make this shit up 🤣
Did they ever publish the starting time, or did it just start? It seemed to have happened while I was asleep. Not that I’d have stayed up for it ha.
I just don’t get how a site based on freely produced content thst employs volunteer mods can actually monetise.
That part just gets me. The site has nothing without the users and the users have nothing without the mods.
Wow. Spez is doubling down on attacking the Apollo dev. You’d think spez was new to reddit with the way he’s commenting.
deleted by creator
Pao was used by design to piss people off. They made her CEO and had her implement on the changes they knew would be unpopular with the community, then “fired” her, complete with her own golden parachute.
And kept all of “her” changes.
It’s bizarre to read his comment on that. It’s either psychopath behaviour, or… I just don’t know. I’m not a psychologist. It is worrying though, to see a human in charge of a social company act like that. He should probably be removed by some legal means just for that comment alone.
I do not know much details about the internal power structures of a company like reddit, but it seems like this guy seems to be a real liability at the moment. I wonder why he is being allowed to go around doing this.
Maybe they are giving him enough rope to hang himself so he can be removed from his position in a few days. Firing a disliked manager is a common union busting tactic. If he can be made into the centre of gravity for all the ire, canning him and making some small backtrack could have a lot of people reconsidering leaving reddit.
Or maybe there truly is no plan…
Wouldn’t be the first time they’ve done that
He is one of the founders and likely holds a big amount of shares.
classic bully behavior
I don’t get what his angle is. Is it just dumb ego or am I missing something?
He’s selling and he’s going to point his investors to his AMA comments.
Not sure what his responses are going to do for investors’ confidence, given that they mostly show a complete lack of understanding of his userbase, and the reaction to them implies that he’s trying to sell them damaged goods.
I mean, I might have accepted a response along the lines of “We’re very sorry that we slandered the dev of the most popular third party app for our service, tensions have been running high of late and we’re all not at our best right now. Also, bottom line is that running Reddit is ruinously expensive and we desperately need to monetize users somehow, and this seemed like a viable option at the time.”
Instead it’s all doubling down on everything, not giving any ground. They want those Elon Twitter API dollars (to the extent that anybody is actually paying those!) and they’re done with treating their users as anything other than content generation for LLM model training.
Again anything public facing is a lie. The rich investment firms know that it’s designed just to try and placate an unruly userbase. Now if something comes of it? Then they’ll care. If the blackout happens I wouldn’t be shocked if there’s wholesame usurpation of the mod teams to reopen the big ones.
I fully expect that subs with major frontpage presences are going to get taken over by the mothership and reopened almost immediately. They may even be able to find some poor saps to mod them, at least for a couple weeks until they realize that’s a full-time job. But the smaller subs are what long-time and power users end up diffusing to and what keeps them engaged with the site over time, and those are likely going to be dead or zombies shortly. Any investor putting money into Reddit for any reason other than short-term trading or hoping to be at the front of the line to pick over the corpse in a few years has failed to do their due diligence.
Now is the perfect time to short reddit stock :o
I think the way I see it is that the vast majority of Reddit users have no idea that any of this is going on, and wouldn’t care if they did.
So from Corporate’s perspective, all they have to do is deal with a few weeks of whining and teeth gnashing, before everything calms down again and they can get on with whoring Reddit out.
Ultimately they’ll end up back in the black again, and making enough money from the IPO to not give the tiniest rats ass about any of this. They’ll sail off into the sunset on a fleet of expensive yachts, and never give Reddit another thought.
The people who don’t notice are probably not the people bringing the content or moderating the subs though.
It’s all corpspeak. It means nothing except to lie and gaslight users into staying so he can cash out.
Yeah I think it was too much to hope there would actually be good-faith engagement at this point. It was just more corporate messaging.
@chrislenz @alyaza Spez is hitting on twenty.
The active mod team of r/videos (nearly 27M subscribers) has agreed that their shutdown will now be permanent. https://reddit.com/r/videos/comments/145vns0/the_future_of_rvideos/
In a tildes post (I’m riding a lot of horses right now) one of the mods said:
I know this is likely a symbolic gesture because I’m fairly confident reddit will just kick us out and bring the subreddit back up, but after being on the mod team for over a decade its going to be interesting to see how things even function if they decide to take that route.
[Edit: just seen that’s there’s a top level post on this too]
