Unless that person is voting for a rapist, say like trump.
Feel free to shame anyone voting for a rapist. People who vote for rapists should be ashamed of themselves.
Being a rapist is barely even in the top three awful things about Trump. That’s how bad he is.
Not sure sending weapons to a genocidal government is the best plan for keeping him out of the White House but hey what do I know
Unfortunately, sending weapons to a genocidal government is a non-partisan issue at the moment. A large majority of Democrats still support sending aid to Israel.
Change starts from the ground, not the top. As nice as it would be to get someone who supports all the rational causes we do into power, democracy means that we have to get the rest of the voters onboard first.
Yeah I get that. It’s just fundamentally shit and I’m not convinced it’s good tactics. The court will make a preliminary ruling (probably in favour of South Africa) in a few weeks or so. It will be on record that Biden has supported a genocide.
Has Trump started calling Biden “Genocide Joe” yet? How do you think that is going to go? The last election was scarily close. What if Trump does his usual “ramble with no apparent plan” thing and makes some anti-Israel statement because of the obvious reality that we and even he can see clearly? I guess what I’m saying is that it’s kind of leaving him an open goal. What’s the point, again?
Has Trump started calling Biden “Genocide Joe” yet? How do you think that is going to go?
Poorly. If there’s anything his base hates more than liberals, it’s brown people and Muslims. Not only that, but the Israeli lobby is extremely strong in US politics.
The last election was scarily close. What if Trump does his usual “ramble with no apparent plan” thing and makes some anti-Israel statement because of the obvious reality that we and even he can see clearly?
You’re kidding, right? He’ll brag about how he would have given Israel so much more support than ‘Sleepy Joe’ and that he’s Israel’s best friend, the best president for Israel ever. Not only that, but making an anti-Israel statement would lose Trump more votes than it gains him - anti-Israel positions simply are not popular in the electorate currently.
This is the same guy that recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital despite objections from both sides of the aisle. Trump loves the Israeli far-right too much to turn against them on humanitarian grounds.
I guess what I’m saying is that it’s kind of leaving him an open goal. What’s the point, again?
For me, the point is that Biden is the best we are realistically gonna get at this point in time. If we magicked up an anti-Israel candidate to take his place, that would still leave the issue of anti-Israel policies remaining deeply unpopular with the electorate, and that candidate, subsequently, losing short of some equally magicked-up gilded tongue. In light of that, treating this as an issue to vote against Biden for, or abstain, is nothing more than handing over the presidency to Trump for no other reason than that the vast majority of voters disagree with you and you’re upset about that (generic you, not specific you). It’s not ‘teaching’ a candidate or the party anything. It’s not contributing to a change in policy. It’s not even a meaningful objection to ongoing policy, since it’s an effective contribution to the candidate who is unambiguously worse on the subject of Israeli support.
Poorly. If there’s anything his base hates more than liberals, it’s brown people and Muslims.
Because the fascists just love jews? They hate both on racist grounds.
You’re kidding, right?
Obviously not. Needlessly impolite.
This is the same guy that recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital despite objections from both sides of the aisle. Trump loves the Israeli far-right too much to turn against them on humanitarian grounds.
Yeah fair point.
I’ll look up some statistics about voters’ views on this but I guess Lemmy gives me a bit of a warped view of people’s position on this. I did see one that backed up your point though yeah.
For me, the point is that Biden is the best we are realistically gonna get at this point in time.
I meant the point of Biden supporting Israel through this man made horror but yeah sure. You addressed that anyway.
It’s not ‘teaching’ a candidate or the party anything.
I agree there is no choice but to vote Biden anyway but this is only because they are not willing to learn and apparently have absolutely no principles they won’t sell down the river for some short term convenience. It is embarrassing for all concerned and frankly it disgusts me to my core.
Obviously not. Needlessly impolite.
Didn’t mean it impolitely, only as a challenge to the point.
I’ll look up some statistics about voters’ views on this but I guess Lemmy gives me a bit of a warped view of people’s position on this. I did see one that backed up your point though yeah.
Yeah, like, I would love if anti-Israel views were more common, but… fuck, the past 40 years or so of propaganda have done a number on popular views.
I agree there is no choice but to vote Biden anyway but this is only because they are not willing to learn and apparently have absolutely no principles they won’t sell down the river for some short term convenience. It is embarrassing for all concerned and frankly it disgusts me to my core.
Unfortunately, people with principles in politics are the exception rather than the rule.
Didn’t mean it impolitely, only as a challenge to the point.
No worries, it’s not like you bombed a hospital so I guess we can move past it, lol.
Unfortunately, people with principles in politics are the exception rather than the rule.
Unfortunate is right. Not much solace for the people with relatives in Gaza or a child trapped under the rubble that was once his home. Sorry for sending the bombs guys but politics is broken, we don’t have a viable alternative right now, try again in four years.
Im not sure but I think most folks views on israel is they want nothing to with it or really the region. The country was artifically created but its been around and if you want to say the country should just leave as they are not the original people, well as an american I can’t be that much of a hypocrite. Then you have the fact that nothing we have done in the region has ever resulted in good outcomes.
Too bad that a bunch of fucking morons are going on a media rampage BomberBiden, and absolutely handing Trump the election.
They better shut the fuck up when he wins because of it with thier “boo hoo, Trump is neglecting the whole world, genocide genocide!”
Yeah… Well we had a choice between a genocide enabler or a gigantic piece of shit, dictator wannabe AND genocide enabler…
This kind of logic doesn’t work here on Lemmy. Say what you will about Reddit, but at least you could say reasonable shit like this and get a reasonable discussion out of it there.
Here, you just get a bunch of kids willing to sacrifice the democracy of their country over issues in a country they mostly know nothing about.
but that’s what the post is saying. Yes, we know Trump is a fucking maroon, but saying that to Trump voters doesn’t work.
The post is asking “Do you to tell them Trump sucks and they vote for Trump anyway, or do you want to lead with policy and potentially change their mind?”
Consider you’re using an app, which you like, and someone says “Oh that app sucks.” You’d think “ok guy!” But if someone said “oh if you like that app you should check out this one, it has twice the functions, and all these quality of life improvements, and it’s more secure and doesn’t have any ads” you’d think “my guy!”
just some food for thought.
but that’s what the post is saying. Yes, we know Trump is a fucking maroon, but saying that to Trump voters doesn’t work.
I don’t think this meme is supposed to be about Trump voters.
Biden is a far better president and presidential candidate with progressive foreign and domestic policies that have tangibly and practically helped hundreds of millions of people.
So we already have that down.
Trump supporters and conservatives in general are clear that they don’t care about policy as much as they care about idolizing someone who hurts other people.
So I think it’s important that they know their candidate has been found liable for the extreme of hurting other people and actually committed rape.
If a conservative cares that much about hurting other people, it should be known widely and explicitly clear that they are supporting a rapist. That clashes more with their false, professed ideals than climate science they don’t believe in or sustainable resource management or a higher value currency.
Meme is like saying politics doesn’t work. Reckon with the consequences of your vote. It’s a two party first past the post system. The math is not that complicated. Be honest about it.
Yeah, this post trying to pass the blame onto people who correctly recognize the consequences of the design of our electoral system seems shortsighted, but these are American voters after all.
It also assumes that the politics of whoever is reading it has “popular” policies. The country is very divided on what’s “popular”. The first step is advocating for your policies and convincing other people of it. It’s a lot easier to just whine and complain and not try to change things and put the responsibility on others. Convincing others of your politics are your responsibility, not others.
“Oh wow, these fascist concentration camps we’re being sent to are really bad, but have you considered that the democrat’s foreign policy was only moderately less heinous, instead of significantly? Both sides!”
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
That’s how you appeal to leftists more, since the Dems seem keen on pissing on Leftists.
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
Considering how far to the right America is, I’m gonna have to disagree about voting for Dems not moving America left. All things are relative, and relative to what we’re facing down from the GOP, the milquetoast neolib Dems look like Vladimir fucking Lenin.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
The point of the shame is that they’re refusing to engage in loss prevention. That loudmouths on here would prefer to uphold some ideal of “I’m not going to vote for anyone except those who agree with me completely, no matter who suffers because of it!” and need to be fucking shamed. It’s lack of shame that enables them to indulge in purist and accelerationist fantasies at the expense of the actual wellbeing of minority and oppressed groups.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
I agree.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
My point about shame is that usually, radlibs try to yell at leftists by showcasing how progressive Biden is compared to previous dems, when being progressive for a Neoliberal is still a fucking Neoliberal. I’ve seen it plenty of times, a leftist points out that voting for dems won’t move America to the left (correct) and then radlibs try to say that Biden somehow is actually good and leftist (incorrect, he’s just a progressive Neoliberal), then the leftist feels more alienated and doesn’t vote at all because nothing will change (incorrect conclusion).
By framing electoralism not as a means to gain what leftists want, but to avoid losing what they have, and pointing out that actual change comes from bottom-up, you prevent voter apathy and inspire activism.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
I think we just have a fundamentally different perspective on this one. My point of view is that neoliberalism is closer to the left than corporatocracy and fascism - not by virtue of being particularly left, but by virtue of being closer to the center, and thus that the difference between “Democracy, but free market fetishists with a welfare state” and “Democracy, but socialist” is smaller than “Democracy, but socialist” and “Neocalvinist ultranationalist authoritarians”
Voting for neoliberals in my view thus does move the country left relative to where it is currently - but only to a point, and not indefinitely (and only because we’re already pretty far right overall).
I think you misunderstand my point. America is already Neoliberal, that’s why the Democrats ran on a platform of “nothing will fundamentally change.” A vote for dems does push america comparatively left on a left/right scale, yes, but as it gets closer to neoliberalism it will move less and less left with each election cycle. The pressure to move left comes from the bottom up.
Then I think we’re in agreement, just expressing it differently.
Most likely, yes! That’s a huge problem I think for many on this platform, most of the leftist infighting comes from saying the same thing in different ways. There’s legitimate infighting too, of course, but most of it is silly.
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“Oh wow we’re getting genocided but at least CNN can attend the white house’s press meetings”
What, do you think that if Biden loses, the Israelis are going to… what? Genocide the Palestinians less?
You mean the fascists that democrats support in primaries because they’re “unelectable”? Democrats can eat shit, same with any of their voters who are deluded enough to think that people unwilling to vote for senile genocidal nazis and their collaborators are the real fascists
Keep carrying water for fascists, eventually they’ll pat you on the head and call you a good little collaborator before you get the same treatment the rest of us will.
Democrats are gonna keep going right until eventually Democrats are gonna be right off desantis and you’re gonna support them the whole way. How sad, I wish you wouldn’t completely fuck over my life and the lives of everyone else here just because you want to feel superior to everyone else
I rather wish you weren’t hell-bent on fucking over the lives of everyone in the country because you want to feel superior for not voting for Biden, and, by your own admission, having no plan to improve things? Just cratering them now instead of later?
It’s always well off white people that day shit like this xD the people with the least to lose from a trump dictatorship are always the first to act superior to others, including queer people and poc who don’t want to continue the endless rightward slide
Hey, guess what! I’m a mixed-race guy living at under half the fucking poverty line! But sure, call everyone who disagrees with “We must go faster into the camps!” rich and white, I’m sure you’ll hit one eventually.
completely fuck over my life and the lives of everyone else here just because you want to feel superior to everyone else
Legit perfect description of what you’re doing by simping for trump
If you want to fix that, run for local office as a Democrat. But until we get rid of first past the post voting, you have to vote.
In our system, a failure to vote is identically equivalent to voting for whoever you hate most. If you truly see both sides as equally bad, then it doesn’t matter who you vote for. If you think Democrats are worse, then you must vote Republican.
This shit is why I’m not voting for biden. I don’t wanna vote for a denocidal cunt whose party supports Actual Fucking Nazis, and smug cunts like you just make me even more sure it’s the right choice
“One option is bad, so I’m going to choose the worse option!”
Those of us who will be rounded up for extermination thank you for your stunning dedication to democracy at home and abroad. I’m sure the Palestinians will be kissing your boots too, for putting an even more pro-genocide president in office. But hey, who cares if more Palestinians die because you wanted Trump in office? At least you can say “I didn’t vote for JOE BIDEN” when the fascists are marching us to the ditches to be shot.
Maybe the people who are going to be exterminated should help us get a better person.
We are asking that you help us to get a better person, you guys want us to vote for a piece of shit.
Our options help you and us, your option is fuck you guys do what we say.
You guys are fearmongers
Our options help you and us, your option is fuck you guys do what we say.
What option do you have that’s viable, again?
Like, it’s great that you want an anti-Israel candidate, but how the fuck do you expect to install a government that’s anti-Israel when the vast majority of voters, GOP, Dem, and Independent, are pro-Israel?
Are we gonna storm the capital next?
You guys are fearmongers
Yeah, totally, just close your eyes and plug your ears as to what the literal fascist who’s already attempted an autocoup once is loudly and proudly proclaiming he’ll do, with the full, bootlicking support of his party.
I just don’t wanna be put in a fucking camp and FOUR MORE YEARS is just gonna delay it by four more years while shit gradually gets worse and he does nothing about it
The difference is four more years to try to change things, or just put on the armband and go to the gas chambers meekly and quietly now.
Me? I would prefer the four extra years to try to change American society to selling out everyone I care about to a fascist regime because I yearn for death. If I wanted to die that bad, there are ways which inflict less collateral damage to go about it. I should know. I’ve tried.
Nothing. Will. Change. Under. Democrats. This is a universal constant until their base puts up any kind of resistance to them going further right. They collaborate with and support republicans all the fucking time. Explain to me how that will change with unconditional support. Or don’t and just keep calling people who agree with you on 90% of issues fascists, surely that will get genocide joe the votes he needs to wipe Gaza off the map
“if you’re not with us you’re with the terrorists”
Btw I’d get rounded up by trump too. Probably before you would if pence is vp again. They’re the bad cop to the dems’ good cop, and until you and a bunch of other loyal democrats (like I used to be) realize that, we will never stop sliding to the right. Democrats know they can run literally any candidate and potentially win, and dogmatically voting for them is never going to change that. Only making your vote conditional can, unless I’m missing something that you’d care to explain between calling me a fascist
“if you’re not with us you’re with the terrorists”
Mathe-fucking-matically, there are two serious options in the upcoming election. “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
Btw I’d get rounded up by trump too. Probably before you would if pence is vp again. They’re the bad cop to the dems’ good cop, and until you and a bunch of other loyal democrats (like I used to be) realize that, we will never stop sliding to the right. Democrats know they can run literally any candidate and potentially win, and dogmatically voting for them is never going to change that. Only making your vote conditional can, unless I’m missing something that you’d care to explain between calling me a fascist
Care to tell me how making your vote conditional is gonna change the Democratic Party when future elections aren’t gonna matter? Do you think that a second Trump term is gonna give the Dems a chance to ‘earn back’ our votes in 2026 and 2028? Or do you think, more likely, the government will be hollowed out and our votes will mean jack shit?
The way we stop the Dems from sliding to the right is actually turning out for the fucking primaries, unlike most younger voters. Fuck, when I worked the polls, I saw jack fucking shit for people my age during the primaries. We could have had fucking Bernie. But there’s not a sense of civic duty, or even a good sense of how the system works amongst people my age. Honestly, around people of any age, but the old fucks still check their snail mail and get a flyer that tells them how to vote and hobble in and ask us to help them fill out their ballot exactly as they’re told to.
That’s something many factions are happy to encourage - but it’s not baked into the system. It’s something that can be fought - and not by giving the GOP the presidency in the hope that it’ll magically pull people left instead of right, unlike, y’know, the rightward swings that have happened in every previous GOP presidency.
The fact that it’s Trump, the moronic puppeteered fuck who tried an autocoup for the first time in US history, just turns it from “This is a really dumb idea” to “This is a fucking suicidal idea”.
Yep, if only those pesky young voters and 3rd party voters would just vote for absolute pieces of shit after being treated like garbage for not supporting someone 10% less abhorrent than Reagan. Your piece of shit candidates don’t deserve any fucking votes until they actually start representing people other than the white boomers who will vote for them no matter what
Shit’s literally fucking hopeless. Legit what’s the fucking point of VBNMW? They’re never going to go left as long as people keep voting for them. I literally don’t see how the US can not collapse in the next decade or so besides losing WWIII and getting occupied for a few decades. I’m not a fucking fascist! HOPE THE FUCK DOES NOT SUPPORTING The BIGGEST SUPPORTERS OF FASCISTS MAKE ME FASCIST???
Do you really not see how peddling “It’s hopeless! Let the fascist win!” is working for the victory of that selfsame fascist?
Also holy shit you think trump will kill more Palestinians than biden? Holy shit you’re delusional xDDDD he’s literally as fucking awful as he could be about it without literally nuking Gaza, trump would be shit too (like most presidents) but he literally cannot be worse than biden in that regard
It would have been quicker and easier to type “vote trump everyone”
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Are you kidding? There is so much fucking more we could be doing. That’s either a lack of understanding of what Biden is and is not doing, a lack of understanding of what the president can do, or a simple lack of imagination. Do you really think Trump wouldn’t have jets running sorties on Palestinian targets right now? Do you think Trump would be using any of the US’s influence to peddle ‘humanitarian pauses’, since Bibi has explicitly and loudly rejected the idea of a ceasefire? Do you think Trump wouldn’t be pulling out all the stops to see Palestinians die and brag about what a great and murderous ‘war president’ he is?
All this commenter is thinking is that they can’t wait for trump’s reelection
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Are you voting for this?
‘No, no, no, other than day one. We’re closing the border, and we’re drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I’m not a dictator.’
– Donald Trump, wannabe dictator
Yep, you got it! I don’t vote for genocidal cunts so clearly I’m voting for trump. Fuck off libtard
Wow, anyone that asks if you’re voting for Trump is automatically a libtard in your measure?
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Vote shaming doesn’t work because people are stubborn and annoying, not because it’s theoretically unsound. Although yes, adopting popular policies would be good as well.
I don’t understand it but apparently most people respond to shame by doubling down.
Instead of “dude I can’t believe you voted for trump. He’s a rapist failed business man who wants to destabilize Europe and be a dictator” doesn’t yield “yeah I fucked up” in most people, but instead “no you’re an asshole and I did nothing wrong!”
Admitting fault is a power move and more people should embrace it.
To shame someone, he must already agree with you that what he did is wrong, and consider you morally supperior. You can brute-force it with small children, because these propositions hold. Adults will just think you’re an asshole.
Shame is psychologically painful - or brain will do amazing things to avoid that pain. You’re right that admitting fault is a power move, but it requires being able to cope with that potential pain and move forward. Easier to just assert the other person is wrong and avoid that pain completely.
So… you’re saying… I should get compromat on Biden… is what you’re saying?
I mean, unironically, it would be great if someone used compromat for good for once.
Probably. The problem is… anybody who’d use it for good… probably sucks at the whole corruption thing
I love ❤️ you. You 💗 me.
This is a generic statement for a generic time with generic candidates, we’re not in that time - If any of you are starting to have your memories fade, here’s a quick refresher to read this morning and then copy and send to anyone that needs the refresher
- 0 re-elections won
- 1 term president
- 2 times impeached
- 3 marriages
- 4 inch lifts in his shoes
- 5 kids, from 3 different mothers
- 6 bankruptcies
- 7 US Capitol police suing him for Jan 6 terrorist insurrection and murder of police
- 8 trillion + dollars added to the US debt in a single term
- 9 trump lawyers sanctioned by federal judge for lying in frivolous election fraud lawsuits and ordered to pay defendant’s legal fees
- 10 years that trump paid $0 in income taxes between 2000 and 2015. ($0 to cops, teachers, roads, prisons, disaster relief, etc)
- 11 trump associates charged with serious crimes over the past 5 years
- 12 million votes (the big lie) - trump claims he won the 2020 election by 12 million votes when in reality, he lost by about 7 million votes.
- 13 of August, 2021 - one of multiple days that trump was supposed to magically become president again according to Qanon and a crack addicted pillow salesman (the two most respected information sources in the gop)
- 14 year old girl in a youth choir that trump approached in 1992 to say, “Wow! Just think - in a couple years I’ll be dating you.”
- 15 originally confirmed cases of COVID in the US trump said would soon be, “down to close to zero.” followed by, “like a miracle, it will disappear.” - over 1,000,000 Americans have since died of COVID as it continues to kill years later.
- 16 years old - age of daughter ivanka when she hosted “miss teen” pageant and, according to long time trump associate Noel Casler, “trump called her over in the middle of a rehearsal and had her give him a lap dance while he leered at the crew.”
- 17 known trump and russia investigations from local, state and federal prosecutors
- 18 gop senators that ignored trump threats / warnings and supported Biden admin’s infrastructure bill.
- 19 as in COVID19 - trump was verified as the single largest source of disinformation on the virus, with a Cornell study claiming that 38% of the “misinformation conversation” originated with trump
- 20 the day in January, 2021, when Biden was sworn in despite trump inciting a violent insurrection to stop election verification at the US Capitol.
- 21 gun salute that trump ordered for himself when he left office after a humiliating defeat, even though he never served in the military, famously called military members “losers” and “suckers” and actively avoided the draft with a cowardly “bone spurs” excuse.
- 22 date in August, 2021, when Alabama hate rally crowd booed trump for finally saying people should get vaccinated, only after 700,000 Americans have died due mostly to his failure as president
- 23 as in wrestlemania 23 in 2007 where trump, a cartoon level failure with no other prospects, participated in a fake bet that a proxy wrestler would win a fake fight on his behalf or he would shave his wig and hair plugs off.
- 24 day in August, 2021, when trump actually filed a lawsuit in Florida court against YouTube, a private company, demanding that they reinstate his YouTube channel like a desperate, irrelevant embarrassment with no platforms left to abuse.
- 25 plus credible sexual assault allegations against trump, spanning decades and with accusers starting as young as 13 years old at time of assault.
Sounds like fascist propaganda to me but ok
Well, that’s because it is.
Vote shaming doesnt work because YOU lack the critical comprehension skills to accept criticism. This meme look like it was made by someone on the right.
Here’s the source, a leftist meme account: https://www.instagram.com/memeindustrialcomplex
