We know all about the edgy ‘manosphere’ bullshit that teenage males basically get shoved down their throats these days and gladly suck up since they don’t see any alternatives, but what about women?
We know all about the edgy ‘manosphere’ bullshit that teenage males basically get shoved down their throats these days and gladly suck up since they don’t see any alternatives, but what about women?
I firmly disagree with that. Toxic feminine discourse is just as prevalent for young women it’s just that because of the shrinking categories of masculinity (basically down to be rich or be buff or both because it is about an air of protection), there is a wider range of ‘acceptable’ feminine behavior. And that is besides the point that if you are a woman and you choose to default towards perceived masculine behavior that is socially acceptable outside of the the most conservative circles. And as you say, because of this freedom most women are either radlibs or libs.
That said, there are two forms of generally feminine toxicity that I see from online that are translated into bar culture. The first is generally libertarian feminism, or ‘girl boss’ mentality, who are incredibly destructive to anyone around them for the sake of personal gain, but generally fight their own battles. The second is the opposite which is a ‘helpless’ mentality where they either act like they can’t do anything or shouldn’t have to do anything, or literally go out of their way to antagonize others so that way they have to be constantly ‘saved’. And these behaviors span both avowedly liberal and conservative women because the vast majority in the U.S. do not have an actually ideologically consistent political worldview, so attempting to assign them one is a fool’s errand. They are all libs insofar as they are picking and choosing from the buffet of ideology.
Yeah I actually did consider bringing up the gatekeep gaslight girlboss mentality in an edit to my comment, however I decided against it since I don’t think it can really be equated to the manosphere. It is absolutely toxic, but the manosphere represents a whole multitude of extremely socially regressive stances and attitudes, whereas girlboss mentality is mostly just capitalist ideology, and even can in some instances represent some socially progressive stances. And ultimately the girlboss is probably center right to center left (as you say), and I think is more likely to be cautiously radlib than embrace the weird esoteric fascism of the manosphere. I think you’re spot on with the causes.
I don’t really understand your second toxic mentality point. Is this the same as the tradwife, the desire to be some 50s housewife with her husband as the breadmaker, or do you have in mind something else? I sort of understand what you’re saying, I just can’t really picture this person in my head as a “type.”
edit: the other reason I didn’t bring up gatekeep gaslight girlboss is because it didn’t seem as prevalent to me. It absolutely is a common type, but to characterize it as the young women ideology seemed wrong. I know a lot of women who buy into it, or at least its sister, that sort of women-centered hustle culture, but I know just as many women who reject it and make fun of the girlboss. Whereas with the manosphere, I talk to my male friends and even being pretty basic liberals they’ll say shit that makes my ears perk up as I can hear the manosphere attitudes seeping into their thoughts. And there’s less explicit rejection of that stuff. So manosphere attitudes just seemed more prevalent among men, whereas there was nothing I could think of with a similar prevalence among women (although I am a man and have more contact with men so maybe I’m just not in the know). This wasn’t to dismiss any toxic attitudes among women, just that none of those attitudes seemed as prevalent nor did I feel they occupied the same extremely socially regressive space as the manosphere.
I only disagree in so far as to the people participating in that culture it absolutely dominates their life and world view, and does represent a variety of cultural affiliations, and they all share the same trait of being too online. I have absolutely met hippy-chick girl bosses. For me, most of these attitudes are simultaneous and reactionary to each other, and both represent capitalist ideology, even if manosphere trends more regressionary.
It’s hard to describe if you haven’t encountered it irl, but it is basically the lib version of the ‘trad-wife’ and usually I find it occurs in women who are ex-christians (at least in the ones who have bothered to talk about it). My assumption is that they want to be protected by a man and grew up with that being their interest, but they also want to ‘be free’, so the next best thing they can do is antagonize people at the bar so some man can step in and ‘protect them’. It’s a weird reoccurring thing and the only reason I know about it is because usually I am the one that they want to protect them even though I only met them an hour ago and I agree with the other party that they are being an asshole. The GGG attitude is far more prevalent, but I have run into this particular phenomena at least six or seven times, enough to recognize it almost on sight at this point. It absolutely stems from online ‘trad-wife’ rhetoric, just translated to the weird a-political bar culture.
Edit: Just to be clear, Trad-wife is also toxic, but I rarely run into that at a bar.
2nd Edit: And this is also besides the multitude of toxic behaviors that are shared between the genders at bars.
3rd edit: I get what you are saying, but as a man who happens to spend most of his time talking to both genders in bars, trust me, it is there, even among people who reject it. You probably just don’t know the language to recognize it when it is occuring. Especially when I hear some of the advice that women give each other concerning men, much of it feels designed to cause more problems. But idk, my opinion is that most people are making things way more complicated than they have to because they are bored and like to play and most problems occur when one party doesn’t understand the game that the other one is playing. As long as people are respecting personal boundaries at the bar, I could care less.
4th and final edit because I genuinely do not like talking about this: I will concede that perhaps it is not specifically a mentality, but more of a series of toxic behaviors that I notice. Perhaps they are completely unrelated, I’m not an anthropologist on this by any means.
Okay yeah I agree this is one thing I absolutely think represents extremely toxic attitudes for women. I see this stuff online and have absolutely encountered it irl. I’m unsure of what to call it, I don’t think there’s any term that embodies the attitude like the “manosphere” for men. It absolutely plays into girlboss attitudes too, but I don’t think I’d consider it the same thing. That sort of “men are useless” boomer “I hate my wife” attitudes for women. I don’t know how else to characterize it. I absolutely know what you’re talking about but I think the phenomenon is a little fuzzier than the manosphere.
I’m not sure it’s quite fair to paint it as equivalent to the manosphere. The manosphere has extremely regressive politics associated with it, you seem to start out a libertarian and end up some sort of weird esoteric carnivore fascist, whereas women with these attitudes usually just embrace normie politics, albeit with this weird caricature of what a right-winger imagines feminism is like tacked on. It also imo doesn’t seem to translate into “I hate men” the same way the manosphere translates into this seething, visceral hatred of women. Even those women who do say “I hate men,” it always more comes off to me as a rhetorical, emotional statement rather than an expression of some deep-seated belief about the opposite gender. It also more often seems like a reaction to very real issues facing women. Not saying men don’t also face real issues which can often push them to the manosphere, but diving into the manosphere also seems to be just as often a reaction to women asking for basic respect. So it has similarities but imo it’s not as concrete a phenomenon and doesn’t have the same social and political causes nor consequences, or at least the consequences are not as extreme, it’s mostly similar in that it’s toxic attitudes based on gender. However if we’re just talking toxic attitudes prevalent among young women I think whatever we can call this attitude has a very strong case, it really has seeped into a lot of diverse spaces similar to the manosphere.
I suppose it could be considered the girlboss attitudes, but idk. Girlboss attitudes also are very tied to work, like the image of the female CEO with a bunch of male underlings, or maybe Margaret Thatcher or Hillary Clinton controlling the levers of power. Work and career seem less essential to this other attitude, and it’s more just concerned with relations with men regardless of career or even status. Often, yeah, it’s the housewife/homemaker with a rich husband that is held up as the ideal rather than the girlboss CEO. Idk, sort of just talking based on vibes now, I think I’m out of my element a bit, but I do absolutely know what you’re referring to here.