If one thing is more expensive by some criteria guaranteeing something necessary and another thing cheaper by the same criteria not guaranteeing that, then the latter just doesn’t exist.
So nuclear energy is cheaper than alternatives for the same purpose.
Just like an active volcano may suddenly let out a lot of magma which is going to be quite warm, but one can’t just project as if that amount of heat is distributed over the average period between eruptions, while considering it for heating houses.
But then should it not be different in countries like France? There the energy mix is currently ~60% nuclear. But the cost of nuclear energy in France is also more expensive than e.g. renewable energy. And France is operating a lot old quite old reactors. The investment in these reactors have long been amortized and can know produce cheaper nuclear energy than most other countries, although it’s still more expensive than renewables.
In February 2012, President Sarkozy decided to extend the life of existing nuclear reactors beyond 40 years, following the Court of Audit decision that that would be the best option, for new nuclear capacity or other forms of energy would be more costly and available too late. Within ten years 22 out of the 58 reactors will have been operating for over 40 years
We discussed this possibility in the german public also, but we were not convinces that it’s safe to prolong the lifetime of nuclear reactors as the risks are too high.
Statistics and even graphs in general are not applicable in the “look, I’m right and you are wrong” way.
First, that LCOE likely doesn’t account for what I described. Because when wind turbines production is down (no wind), you don’t buy from the same source 10x the same price, you buy from another source, and because grids are centralized and have tariff agreements etc complex to just mix this way. It’s a bit like working with Soviet stats on Soviet economy - stats for centralized systems should be mixed carefully with what is intended to evaluate market mechanisms.
Second, in any case your picture shows cost of nuclear growing significantly. This might be because, say, of quite a few big sites in construction which will return the expenses like 10-15 years later at best, a nuclear site is a long-term investment, which is fact. This might also be because of a few sites being shut down in Europe due to ignorant idiots.
Statistics and even graphs in general are not applicable in the “look, I’m right and you are wrong” way.
I don’t think that’s right. Statistics are a very important tool in assessing the current situations anddrawing conclusion. Here’s an article about that: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037948/
Can you cite a source or present research data to support your second point?
Please keep the discussion civil and cite sources instead of succumbing to personal attacks. Calling the opposition ignored idiots does in no way contribute to proving your points.
The article depends on data which is not present there, so I can’t verify it, the rest is an almost lyrical text.
Can you cite a source or present research data to support your second point?
My second point is from me hearing of a few stations being currently built, some recently launched by Russia.
Which would be the data supporting it? A list of projects with estimated capacities, dates of turning operational, launch costs and expected returns? I don’t have it, but seems like a very small dataset.
Please keep the discussion civil and cite sources instead of succumbing to personal attacks. Calling the opposition ignored idiots does in no way contribute to proving your points.
On the contrary, you need a threshold for what is accepted opposition. You are never going to have the resources to listen to everyone and even to respect everyone. And even to to match every point in a checklist of “behaving correctly in a discussion” without losing the goal.
People replacing nuclear stations with coal\gas\etc supplied by authoritarian regimes and pretend that’s a moral decision are what I said.
I meant that referring to statistics just moves the argument to a lower level of what is the correct interpretation of the data.
I think the statistics presented are very clear and there’s little room for interpretation. It clearly shows that nuclear energy is not viable economically. And again: The cost for storing nuclear waste is not factored in there, which makes nuclear power even more expensive.
The article depends on data which is not present there, so I can’t verify it, the rest is an almost lyrical text.
The sources for the data are referenced in the PDF.
My second point is from me hearing of a few stations being currently built, some recently launched by Russia.
Which would be the data supporting it? A list of projects with estimated capacities, dates of turning operational, launch costs and expected returns? I don’t have it, but seems like a very small dataset.
I dont think this is vaiable argument from your side. The burden of proof for your opinions is your duty, not mine. Please present sources and data that nuclear power will be cheaper than other forms of energy production if we just build more nuclear power plants.
On the contrary, you need a threshold for what is accepted opposition. You are never going to have the resources to listen to everyone and even to respect everyone. And even to to match every point in a checklist of “behaving correctly in a discussion” without losing the goal.
This is IMHO also not true. If you do not accept arguments without consideration it’s a prejudice.
People replacing nuclear stations with coal\gas\etc supplied by authoritarian regimes and pretend that’s a moral decision are what I said.
This was not a decision of the politicians. Politics in Germany wanted to push nuclear energy further, but have been met with fierce protest by the people. So this is the will of the people not of the “authoritarian regimes” you hinted at.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany
I think the statistics presented are very clear and there’s little room for interpretation. It clearly shows that nuclear energy is not viable economically.
The sources for the data are referenced in the PDF.
I may have missed them again. Frankly I meant a CSV or an Excel file being linked.
This is IMHO also not true. If you do not accept arguments without consideration it’s a prejudice.
And presuming that your own resource for attention is infinite is just wrong, trying to imitate that more so.
I dont think this is vaiable argument from your side. The burden of proof for your opinions is your duty, not mine. Please present sources and data that nuclear power will be cheaper than other forms of energy production if we just build more nuclear power plants.
Actually there’s no burden on anyone, person A losing an argument against person B doesn’t mean that B is right and A is wrong.
But that’s also not that I was saying, just that the cost is now affected by recent\ongoing construction and some sites closing at the same time.
It will also be a bit cheaper, of course, due to more qualified people being available with more plants.
Politics in Germany wanted to push nuclear energy further, but have been met with fierce protest by the people. So this is the will of the people not of the “authoritarian regimes” you hinted at.
I didn’t mean German politicians by “authoritarian regimes”.
And presuming that your own resource for attention is infinite is just wrong, trying to imitate that more so.
That’s true, that’s why civil discussions are so important, since you have the possibility to point out the errors in my reasoning or present sources that have not been considered by me before
Actually there’s no burden on anyone, person A losing an argument against person B doesn’t mean that B is right and A is wrong.
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim, especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.
If one thing is more expensive by some criteria guaranteeing something necessary and another thing cheaper by the same criteria not guaranteeing that, then the latter just doesn’t exist.
So nuclear energy is cheaper than alternatives for the same purpose.
Just like an active volcano may suddenly let out a lot of magma which is going to be quite warm, but one can’t just project as if that amount of heat is distributed over the average period between eruptions, while considering it for heating houses.
That’s clearly not true. Nuclear energy is quite expensive in comparison to other sources:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source
Of course I’m literally looking at the same graph and as far as I can tell nuclear energy is equivalent in price to gas.
Can you also see the trend of the two graphs for nuclear and gas?
Did you see how much cheaper renewables are?
And do you think the cost for the long term storage of nuclear waste is included in the calculation?
That trend is exactly what I’d use as an argument in favor of nuclear energy. It shows that cost depends on adoption and on political situation.
But then should it not be different in countries like France? There the energy mix is currently ~60% nuclear. But the cost of nuclear energy in France is also more expensive than e.g. renewable energy. And France is operating a lot old quite old reactors. The investment in these reactors have long been amortized and can know produce cheaper nuclear energy than most other countries, although it’s still more expensive than renewables.
We discussed this possibility in the german public also, but we were not convinces that it’s safe to prolong the lifetime of nuclear reactors as the risks are too high.
Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_France
https://energypost.eu/french-government-study-95-renewable-power-mix-cheaper-nuclear-gas/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laufzeitverlängerung_deutscher_Kernkraftwerke (Google Translation: https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Laufzeitverlängerung_deutscher_Kernkraftwerke?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
What do you mean by that?
Here’s a study of the risks of storing nuclear waste on the surface:
https://www.bund.net/fileadmin/user_upload_bund/publikationen/atomkraft/atomkraft_zwischenlager_studie_2020.pdf Since this is a pdf I can not provide a link to the translated version, but you can download the pdf and have it translated by e.g. the Google Translator yourself. Sorry for the inconvinience.
OK, I’ll look at it later, thx
Here’s a translation of a similar article: https://www-bund-net.translate.goog/themen/atomkraft/atommuell/zwischenlager/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Statistics and even graphs in general are not applicable in the “look, I’m right and you are wrong” way.
First, that LCOE likely doesn’t account for what I described. Because when wind turbines production is down (no wind), you don’t buy from the same source 10x the same price, you buy from another source, and because grids are centralized and have tariff agreements etc complex to just mix this way. It’s a bit like working with Soviet stats on Soviet economy - stats for centralized systems should be mixed carefully with what is intended to evaluate market mechanisms.
Second, in any case your picture shows cost of nuclear growing significantly. This might be because, say, of quite a few big sites in construction which will return the expenses like 10-15 years later at best, a nuclear site is a long-term investment, which is fact. This might also be because of a few sites being shut down in Europe due to ignorant idiots.
Here’s an article by dbresearch about the cost of energy production from different sources which IMHO clearly shows that nuclear power is already among the most cost intensive forms of energy production. And as I stated before it still completely neglects the cost of storing the nuclear waste for thousands of years to come. https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/Costs_of_electricity_generation%3A_System_costs_matt/RPS_EN_DOC_VIEW.calias?rwnode=PROD0000000000435629&ProdCollection=PROD0000000000528292
Can you cite a source or present research data to support your second point?
Please keep the discussion civil and cite sources instead of succumbing to personal attacks. Calling the opposition ignored idiots does in no way contribute to proving your points.
I’m sick, so don’t have energy for this argument and otherwise I wouldn’t have time.
I meant that referring to statistics just moves the argument to a lower level of what is the correct interpretation of the data.
The article depends on data which is not present there, so I can’t verify it, the rest is an almost lyrical text.
My second point is from me hearing of a few stations being currently built, some recently launched by Russia.
Which would be the data supporting it? A list of projects with estimated capacities, dates of turning operational, launch costs and expected returns? I don’t have it, but seems like a very small dataset.
On the contrary, you need a threshold for what is accepted opposition. You are never going to have the resources to listen to everyone and even to respect everyone. And even to to match every point in a checklist of “behaving correctly in a discussion” without losing the goal.
People replacing nuclear stations with coal\gas\etc supplied by authoritarian regimes and pretend that’s a moral decision are what I said.
Im sorry to hear that I hope you get well soon.
I think the statistics presented are very clear and there’s little room for interpretation. It clearly shows that nuclear energy is not viable economically. And again: The cost for storing nuclear waste is not factored in there, which makes nuclear power even more expensive.
The sources for the data are referenced in the PDF.
I dont think this is vaiable argument from your side. The burden of proof for your opinions is your duty, not mine. Please present sources and data that nuclear power will be cheaper than other forms of energy production if we just build more nuclear power plants.
This is IMHO also not true. If you do not accept arguments without consideration it’s a prejudice.
This was not a decision of the politicians. Politics in Germany wanted to push nuclear energy further, but have been met with fierce protest by the people. So this is the will of the people not of the “authoritarian regimes” you hinted at. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germany
I may have missed them again. Frankly I meant a CSV or an Excel file being linked.
And presuming that your own resource for attention is infinite is just wrong, trying to imitate that more so.
Actually there’s no burden on anyone, person A losing an argument against person B doesn’t mean that B is right and A is wrong.
But that’s also not that I was saying, just that the cost is now affected by recent\ongoing construction and some sites closing at the same time.
It will also be a bit cheaper, of course, due to more qualified people being available with more plants.
I didn’t mean German politicians by “authoritarian regimes”.
That’s true, that’s why civil discussions are so important, since you have the possibility to point out the errors in my reasoning or present sources that have not been considered by me before
I don’t agree. If opinions are stated without backing from reliable sources, they are merely opinions. Here’s a paper detailing the importance of sources for viable arguments: https://www.sjsu.edu/writingcenter/docs/handouts/Argumentative Writing and Using Evidence.pdf
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim, especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)