Bangladeshi residents and others in Monfalcone say decisions to prohibit worship at cultural centres and banning burkinis at the beach is part of anti-Islam agenda
The envelope containing two partially burned pages of the Qur’an came as a shock. Until then, Muslim residents in the Adriatic port town of Monfalcone had lived relatively peacefully for more than 20 years.
Addressed to the Darus Salaam Muslim cultural association on Via Duca d’Aosta, the envelope was received soon after Monfalcone’s far-right mayor, Anna Maria Cisint, banned prayers on the premises.
“It was hurtful, a serious insult we never expected,” said Bou Konate, the association’s president. “But it was not a coincidence. The letter was a threat, generated by a campaign of hate that has stoked toxicity.”
Monfalcone’s population recently passed 30,000. Such a positive demographic trend would ordinarily spell good news in a country grappling with a rapidly declining birthrate, but in Monfalcone, where Cisint has been nurturing an anti-Islam agenda since winning her first mandate in 2016, the rise has not been welcomed.
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As opposed to the benches that are purposely designed so you can’t lie on them. You see those all over the place under the guise of modern design language.
Not just benches. Hostile Architecture is all over the place.
Well, modern design language includes a fucktonne of synonyms for ‘social violence’
Maybe we need to start getting crews to go around with crowbars and remove these human-hateful expressions of the owner class’s power.
in my city they are more magnanimous. putting unmovable barriers on the bench that makes it impossible to lie down upon.
I don’t understand where cities expect homeless people to go. All sleep out in cornfields?
The expect them to become slave labor in our for profit prison industry. 💅
Homeless shelters. If there’s a problem, it’s either:
- Homeless person prefers alcohol over shelter
- Homeless person prefers narcotisc over shelter
- Homeless person likes being homeless and is parasite
Please do not question it with points like shelters being full, alcohol and narcotics addicitions and not something you can just drop or people rarely choosing to be homeless out of their own volition. It’s all their fault.
Cause “I say so”.
In my city, there was a homeless encampment by the river, under an overpass. Not bothering anyone. Local police went in without warning. Instead of just moving them along, which is already bad enough, they literally cut up tents, poured out food and water supplies, and then arrested several of them for various bullshit reasons when questioned.
They just hate fat
The priest at the church my mom used to work at did the same thing with the bus stop benches an Eagle Scout built because of the same reason.
Everyone likes to think of Italy as this land of the cultured and sophisticated with all the art, food, and architecture. But you’ll find a lot of Italians are as racist and ass backwards as a toothless Klan member in Mississippi.
Italy literally invented fascism.
Hitler used to jerk off to pictures of Mussolini while building his movement.
Mussolini invented fascism, not Italy . Lots of Italians fell for it and supported it, the rest of the population - the vast majority - had to endure it and were straight up forced to live by its rules through persecution, imprisonment, violence, oppression, physical torture, displacement and homicide. Google the crimes of the Camicie Nere. Millions of Italians were killed because they wouldn’t accept the dictatorship. Look up the Partigiani fighters, they are the true heroes of the anti-fascist fight. Google the Fosse Ardeatine Massacre as one of many examples. Americans fancy themselves the saviours but they stepped in very very late when all the hard work had been done already by the Partigiani. Italy is historically a socialist country, so to say “Italy invented fascism” is just wrong.
Was Mussolini part of the government when fascism was invented? Then yes. Italy invented fascism.
It’s okay. It’s history.
What does that even mean…
Giovanni Gentile and Benito Mussolini invented fascism. Indeed, it’s history. Whathttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fascism
Correct. They were part of the government at the time, therefore Italy invented fascism.
Just like Britain invented the first tank. Not “some dude in the government.”
Mussolini invented fascism, not Italy
If this is the case you’re gonna have to give back a lot of things that are attributed to “Italy”. I think it’s well understood what is meant when someone claims something is from a region/area/country. It was an Italian and it took a country to back it. It’s Italian.
it took a country to back it
So you don’t understand how dictatorship works, ok.
Not the point. That’s a huge red herring.
Millions of Italians were killed because they wouldn’t accept the dictatorship.
100,000 max (45k combat. 45k pow camps) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_resistance_movement
Those are the Partigiani, but countless other Italians have been killed because they were against fascism, even before the Partigiani movement formed.
So if any italians are like Israel. A country with a rich history of strife and oppression but basically ignore it because it’s easier to blame others (in this case brown ppl/immigrants) as the cause of all their problems slowly sliding back to the ideals (in this case racism and fascism) they supposedly rejected.
You are missing the point. The Dutch has Nazi’s too, but also a lot of resistance. There is good and bad all around, even within people. If you want to label it as one thing, that would be shortsighted.
My GF is Italian. That’s pretty much how she describes Italy.
As a land of culture and sophisticated art or a land of toothless racists? Or is it both at the same time?
I can say that it is both
Yes.
“Everyone likes to think of Italy as this land of the cultured and sophisticated…”
This is no big deal and it’s kinda funny, but really it just sounds like you thought that, and then were shocked when you learned otherwise lol.
Because I honestly don’t know anyone who believes that. While I’m sure there are people who do, it’s not this massive common misconception that you’re claiming.
No I’ve never been and don’t plan on going, mainly because of the racism and warnings from other black travelers. That being said outside of Europe the idea Italians are cultured, suave, and classy is definitely a thing. Europe in general is stereotyped that way.
Anecdotal but my impression is that most people feel like Italy is a culturally sophisticated place and don’t realise there’s a lot of racism and prejudism.
This tells more about you than about Italians
I know plenty of people who think that and agree with his assessment that most people view Italian culture as refined and sophisticated, just like the French.
As an Italian, I would say that’s not the case, not “a lot of Italians are racist”. I’ve had interactions with a few racist people of older generations, but I would say that they are the exception, thankfully.
Frankly, that’s kind of hard to believe when your country has an openly fascist government
Fascism is not exclusively about racism. It’s a government style were the first victims are the citizens themselves. Racism is a component of it.
Damn, you must not live there, even in the south, were people are mostly ignorant, all I hear is complains about giorgia meloni and how shitty her government is 🥶🙏
But why did she win if not because of the majority of voting Italians wanted her? (which could be just half+1, I concede)
This is why Trump won in 2016. Complacency. “Everyone in my state hates his guts. He must not be popular, then. I don’t even need to vote since Clinton will clearly win!”
Replied to the other person about this!
I don’t live in Italy, that’s correct. But if nobody likes the fascists, who voted for them, then?
The most likely reason is that most of the young people did not vote, leaving the vote to old people and middle aged ones.
Though, by living in the south, I may have a different view of it, as most politicians hate our southern asses, including the meloni
Edit: so, excluding most younger people, it leaves most of the northerns individuals ( who usually have more money invested in their infrastructure by governments ) and old people who are likely to vote for her. But it is still weird as literally anyone I talk to, not friends, just random people,vsay that they have not voted for her, even including some oldies that I know personally
Edit 2: no but like seriously, literally no one likes her, especially after the shitshow she has been making with the bonuses
Just because they’re not young, doesn’t mean they don’t count. Doesn’t Europe have an aging population anyway? So if “old people” voted for her, and she won, then yes, Italians voted for her, period.
But it is still weird as literally anyone I talk to, not friends, just random people,vsay that they have not voted for her, even including some oldies that I know personally
Nope, not weird at all. That’s pretty much the definition of “living in a bubble.” I’m not saying this to insult you, OP. It’s just that that’s exactly what it is.
I saw it in Venezuela. People thinking that Chavez was never going to win. Hell, even all the media was projecting the other candidate to win (they were all biased.) Oh, but who are these people? Middle class. If all you do is talk to other middle class people (because god forbid you talk to poor people!), then all you’ll hear is that no one will vote for Chavez. Except that the middle class is (was) just the 20% of the population, and the majority of people, 80% of them, were all in for Chavez. Chavez wins, and people like you get a surprised pikachu face.
You don’t have votes the way you do without endemic racism. Football still has a massive problem too.
Would you say Italian football fans would be considered “a lot of Italians?”
Or Fratelli d’Italia party members and voters?
Sometimes I think racism is nutrients for a lot of italians because they can not and will not stop with it
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I have never once in my life thought of Italy as being sophisticated. I feel like they definitely use to be but havnt been in a long time.
They also make very low quality export olive oil.
They actually make really good quality olive oil but “water” it down with cheap filler oils and export an inferior product because that’s safer and more profitable than trafficking drugs.
Totally agreed. There’s a reason why italians sided with fucking hitler during world war 2.
They are insecurity incarnate.
Even if we fully ignore that it was Mussolini, by that broken logic modern Germans are Nazis which they so obviously aren’t.
I’m not saying this situation isn’t a shambles but trying to say all Italians are insecurity incarnate is honestly stupid. They just aren’t. Most Italians are lovely.
OP didn’t say “Today’s Italy” sided with hitler. Most Italians are indeed lovely, yes. But your comment is a strawman.
Nah, op clearly meant present day Italians, the comment you are replying to is not a straw man
Oh. Okay.
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cultured and sophisticated
Maybe french but not italian culture, no. Italian is more about passion. Them and spain are a typical southern climate culture to other europeans.
Lol the french.
Have you ever heard of the Renaissance?
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The Roman Empire tried to genocide the celts and many others. It’s in their blood.
The decision to ban burkini is weird. You can’t swim nude on Italy’s beaches, but can’t swim fully clothed either?
I can see how banning the Burkini in indoor pools makes sense from a hygienic perspective, but banning them on public beaches is just to take something enjoyable away from a specific group of people.
France is pretty strict on that. Apparently men can’t wear trunk style swimming bottoms. I’m not sure how they handle the burkini vs rashguard issue. I know rashguards are very popular with a lot of east asians because they worry about skin cancer.
People pee in the pool. I doubt a Burkini is going to make the hygienic difference.
Hard agree. Pools are gross—anyone getting in one knows that and accepts it. I’ll take a lady in a burkini over an unattended child any day.
How is burkini different from a swimming suit that would warrant banking them from indoor pools?
You usually use the public shower before entering the pool and wearing a burkini in there kinda defeats the point. For the same reason you’re not allowed to wear anything other than regular swimwear.
I don’t understand how wearing a burkini defeats the point of the shower. A burkini is swimwear.
The shower before a pool is to ensure people aren’t entering the pool coated in dirt (e.g. sweat, hair, dead skin, etc…).
The chemicals in a pool are designed to bind to that dirt and kill any bacteria introduced.
There is a limit to the chemicals you can add to a pool (before it hurts humans) and once the amount has activated you need to drain the pool and refill it.
Swimming pools hold crazy amounts of water which is also really expensive to heat up, so pools want to do that as little as possible.
Clothing interfers with cleaning your body, so people entering near fully clothed (e.g. like a Burkina) will likely introduce more dirt into the pool.
That translates into increased costs for swimming pools or pools which maintain the old schedule and just operate unsafely.
This is all based on owning a hot tub and learning how to maintain it.
Hopefully this also explains why it doesn’t matter people enter the sea fully clothed
Dude, I own a pool. What do you think a burkini is made out of, wool?
You seem to be intentionally missing the point, but to reiterate…
You shower before entering a pool to wash the dirt from your body off (your cleaning yourself).
The more of your body covered the less effective that shower is.
Ideally everyone would be naked in the shower, but there are probably outfits which increasingly render the shower less and less effective (e.g. speedos are better than shorts, etc .).
It would not surprise me if a Burkina covered so much that the cleaning shower is rendered pointless
Yes? No? Maybe?
Do you know what they’re made of?
Without looking it up?
Cause I sure as hell don’t
I’m not sure they ever empty most pools do they? They just continuously filter the water and keep adding chemicals?
He’s saying if someone adds 10 gallons of chlorine instead of 5 depending on amount of water the pool holds…
Which shouldn’t happen. The guy owns a hot tub and is extrapolating that to pool water maintenance. You test the water every few days and see exactly where your levels are, and you know how much of what chemicals you need to add.
Draining and heating pools has zero to do with a burkini. I think he just wants to argue the more fabric = more risk for contaminants introduced but went about it all the wrong way.
The sheer amount of fabric
And what’s wrong with that? How does that make it unhygienic
It makes it more unhygienic because there’s more fabric that carries dirt, sweat, whatever
It doesn’t make sense even from a hygiene perspective, it’s just racism because no one has banned surfers and their wetsuits.
I’m pretty sure that’s against italian constitution. Freedom of religion is a fundamental freedom on EU level as well.
Municipalities in Italy have been pushing an anti-Muslim agenda since at least 9/11 as part of the right-wing identity politics agenda.
Mosques and cultural centers are seen as radicalization centers.
They know that any court would shoot down shit like this as unconstitutional, but Italian law is slow as molasses and their goal is signaling to xenophobes and racists.
That’s nice, since when have fascists ever cared? I mean like in all of human history?
They remember to care once the institutional boot of liberal democracy hovers above them.
Who knew electing fascists would lead to fundamental freedoms of minorities being removed?
Who knew electing fascists would lead to fundamental freedoms being removed?
FIFY
Christofascists are gonna fash.
Abraham hates everyone but mostly his children.
Bigotry aside, that seems like a wildly unenforceable law: What are they going to do? Go house to house to make sure people aren’t praying the wrong way?
I mean, bigotry and unenforceability aside, it’s also pretty unambiguously illegal.
Italy is a signatory to the ECHR which creates an explicit right to privacy (Article 8) and freedom of religion (Article 9).
The Italian constitution itself also specifies a right to religious equality before the law (Article 8).
Yeah that was gonna be my question: does Italy not have any legal mechanism in place that would be the functional equivalent of the US’s supremacy clause?
Like…not saying shit like this isn’t attempted all the time in deeply conservative areas of the US, but in most cases where the far right leadership has even a shred of strategic thinking, they often don’t even attempt to pass or enforce laws like this because it’ll trigger immediate challenge in the courts, the challenge will be 100% taken up and the decision will come down against them (since even in a conservative court, the only thing they hate more than ruling in favor of “liberal” causes is any ruling that would limit the court’s power in the future), and at that point there’s a permanent legal precedent in the books, against the repression they’d like to carry out.
That’s exactly the same in Italy, freedom of religion is constitutionally protected. So either there’s something the article is not reporting, ie they are forbidding praying on the pavements of the street blocking the pedestrian circulation (which I promise you does happen), or the ban will simply be vetoed by the court.
Normally these things are about the call to prayer, not the actual praying. This does seem to be being reported as the actual praying though.
Public praying in areas which cause obstruction could potentially be justified under the public safety exception of the ECHR.
If only there was a way to find out.
Not defending this at all, but the ban only covers praying at “cultural centers”, which I assume doesn’t include people’s private residences.
They truly could enforce against public Islamic worship illegal, depending on how broadly “cultural centers” is defined, and I expect fascists to define it to cover all of public life.
Still sounds unenforceable and, while I’m not familiar with Italy’s legal system, probably illegal.
Muslims often have massive group prayer, it’s about outlying public participation for one specific religious group.
The thing is that these group prayers can be conducted literally anywhere as long as it’s clean, so this law literally does nothing except openly expressing hate
I am stunned, stunned I tell you, that a culture famous for its misogyny is also backwards in nearly every other possible way.
now come on - don’t judge all Italians based on piece of shit Berlusconi and other fascists.
I’m sure all the good Italians will start rioting any minute now.
The article clearly says that 8k people in a town of 30k took to the streets.
That’s an impressive percentage. For comparison, 86.3 million US citizens protesting, which has never come close to happening, would be the same percentage as this little town.
… but how would I know that, not having read the article? /s
Yes, I commented without reading the article. Shame.
The amount of hate and ignorance ITT is staggering. Do better Lemmy, please
Lemmy has passed it’s golden moment now that enough regular Redditors made if over.
Oh my friend it is going to get much, much worse. And of course this could all be solved by lemmy admins and mods cracking down on fascist posters, but they won’t.
Sounds like you prefer to be on Reddit where angry mods rule everything.
What do you mean? I only see people here venting possible reasons for why European countries are vary of Islam. There’s no hate going on here.
If there was a confused hyper normalized comment here it’s yours.
There is a difference between trying to figure out why ppl are racist towards a particular group and saying that we should discriminate everyone equally who believe in god(The latter of which is prominent here)
I respect atheists a lot because they (mostly) actually do something good rather than bigotry in the name of god, but what I am seeing here is no different than extremism by other religious fanatics
‘Ban all prayers’ ‘My belief(s) are superior than others and anyone who doesn’t share my belief is dumb/terrorist etc etc’
They have turned atheism into some sort of cool shit for teenagers. ‘Oh you
don’t have a bikeare not atheist? LOL every cool kidhas a bikedoesn’t believe in your skydaddy lol, you are so gross and dirty and dumb’I have argued a lot about this on lemmy, and I will admit some are in good faith, but most of them were just religious extremist, just without the religious part
Edit(s): Shit ton of typos 50th edit: Great example down where you see people claiming anyone who follows a religion is dumb🤷🏼♂️
Why us there so much muslim hate in Europe, I just don’t get it
a lot of islamic terror attacks in the past have made people bitter.
and i mean a lot of them
So this is what Lemmy is doing now? “Why is there hatred of Muslims? Because
they’re terroristsof frequent terror attacks.”Maybe you had all these terror attacks because you already had large groups of disaffected young men who didn’t feel like local society had anything for them and then became radicalised?
In France, Muslims are half as likely to get a callback for a job than Christians with the same credentials.. So people already hated them. The terrorist attacks are just the latest excuse.
I think it just might have to do with the history of Islamic terror attacks…
Such as the London bombings and bridge attack, Charlie Hebdo attack and the more recent stabbings in France, the Madrid train bombings which killed 193 people, the November 2015 Paris attack in which 130 were murdered, the 2016 Atatürk Airport attack in Turkey which left 45 dead, the 2016 Brussels bombings, just to name a few…
I’m not suggesting that all or even most Islamic individuals are dangerous/terrorists. But there is a long, bloody history of Islamic extremism throughout Europe.
I’m also not suggesting this justifies these bans in Italy whatsoever. I share this because it’s essential context to answer your question.
Muslim immigrants will have de facto faced as much (if not far more) hostility and prejudice before any of those events.
What changed is that by the late 20th century, it had become politically unacceptable for right-wing parties to be perceived to be preying on overt racism towards their countries’ brown-skinned citizens. But the War on Terror at the start of the 21st century created a new organising framework for nativists, whereby they could incite hatred against exactly the same brown-skinned people as before, but claim they were targeting them for their religion and not their skin colour. At the heart of it is still the same prejudice towards those who are different, it’s just that the aspect of difference they choose to focus on today is more politically acceptable than the one they used to focus on.
From the perspective of a brown-skinned Muslim immigrant, the ideological hoops the far-right jump through are likely irrelevant. These people were targeted by nativists before, and they get targeted by nativists now.
I don’t disagree with you that it’s the product of racism and discrimination. But the terror attacks also fuel that hate.
I can say the same thing about the consequences of my (US) country’s actions in the ‘war on terror.’ We’re the greatest contributing factor to the formation of ISIS. The casualties of our drone strikes alone (from Bush, Obama, and trump) were vastly civilian targets.
Whether it’s politically/religiously motivated drone strikes on civilians, bombs in subways, or knife attacks, those actions spawn further fear, hate, intolerance, and extremism.
Even though Italy is enacting racist policies/systems, they are able to gather support for/‘justify’ their actions due largely to the terror attacks throughout Europe.
It’s more than just a product of it - it’s the main factor.
Over the last half century or so, the UK has experienced around 200 civilian deaths from Islamic terrorism and around 2,000 civilian deaths from Irish terrorism. Which community do you think the far-right in the UK tend to target?
The ones with more melanin who look different. Too easy.
There is a long, bloody history of Islamic extremism throughout Europe
All of the attacks you listed happened within a 15 year timeframe. Which is not coincidentally the War on Terror timeframe. The discrimination is a lot older and the history of Islamic-Europe relations is a lot more nuanced than this. Far more relevant is the growing Far-right sentiment and anti-immigrant rhetoric across Europe.
We don’t have black people to discriminate against, so we make do with browns after discriminating against Jews fell out of fashion.
Hehe, fash-ion.
A lot of people is mentioning terror attacks, but I think that’s only part of it. The sexist nature of most muslim people living in Europe adds up to the mix. It seems to me that people in US are OK with burkini, just to mention something present in this article, but in Europe it is mostly seen as yet another sign of that sexism.
If there is one thing US has done well, it’s combating racism based on religion (Islamophobia, Anti-Semitism etc.) it still exists but much better than whatever the fuck is happening in Europe
Keeps us the hating the billionaires if we hate our fellow neighbours instead.
Probably because there is a, perceived or cultivated, associations between Muslims and immigrants/people of color. And if you can’t outright punish someone based on “race” you go after the closest thing.
It’s not about skin colour, it’s about a way of life that is considered too radically different from their own: racists assume that muslims don’t want to integrate in Italian society, don’t follow the rules, abuse women with their hijabs and restrictions of movement (muslim women can’t drive nor go anywhere without a male relative). The native Muslim community is so minuscule in Italy that most Muslims are immigrants and speak other languages Italians don’t understand and makes them suspicious. They are concerned they could hide weapons under their tunics and hijabs. They don’t like that they cover their face and can’t be identified. It’s the lifestyle that they are bothered with, the skin colour is irrelevant. Italians were equally racist against Albanians in the 90ies because they were migrating in Italy by the thousands per day and were committing a lot of crimes, and Albanians are caucasians.
muslim women can’t drive nor go anywhere without a male relative
This only true in middle east. Muslim women in south east asia don’t have this restriction and can do whatever they want like living alone, drive cars and hold any job, even leadership positions such as president and ministers.
They are concerned they could hide weapons under their tunics and hijabs. They don’t like that they cover their face and can’t be identified.
People can already conceal weapons beneath their jacket or suit, and covid basically normalize wearing masks in a lot of countries (not sure about Italy, is it normal for a person to walk around wearing masks there?).
muslim women can’t drive nor go anywhere without a male relative
That’s actually not true, it is accepted that as long as one remains within the border of a city or county, there is need for a male to escort, the dispute is only about traveling outside of the city, some say it’s not necessary even then, some say it is necessary if they need to stay for a night, some say 3 nights, but this ‘can’t travel anywhere without male’ is completely wrong, this is might be stated by conservative(s) or maybe racists idk about that
Wrong, it’s all about culture. Most muslims has fairly light skin anyways. A skin colour is very superficial, what’s important is whether you integrate or not. I have nothing against people of colour at all, but Islam makes me very uncomfortable
Well, you are not obliged to follow it, you can’t use this as an excuse to take away their rights, I don’t like iPhones so I am going to ban them
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Why are they coming in the first place. If they wanna come to a foreign country, it’s their job to adopt to the local culture, not the other way around
What do you mean by ‘local culture’, if that means that one should stop practicing their religion, than that goes against your own constitution, if you want a place like that, then by all means, make a ‘local culture’ where everyone is only allowed to do what you or the majority wants, but then spell it out clearly in your book, then if someone goes against, they are at fault, but you put on the image of secularism and freedom of expression, and then deny one particular group this right
And the word for these kind of people rhymes with ‘fascist’
It’s about not tolerating the intolerant. There’s no rights for women, illegal to be gay etc, according to sharia law. Muhammed was a slave owner, and had multiple wives (including a 6 year old child) and concubines. Most muslims in western countries do far more crime than the locals. Why should we be ok with these people tearing apart everything our ancestors built?
Huh? Why does every discussion on muslim rights always start getting to Muhammad when y’all can’t justify your hypocrisy, how many modern day muslims have slaves or multiple wives/marry under the present age of consent in your country? The topic is why are you taking away their basic rights guaranteed to them by your country itself, if they do any of the things mentioned above in the present day, then that should be dealt separately
Most muslims in western countries do far more crimes than locals
Sauce?
And arab countries are not a very great example in most things but one thing you can’t deny is that they have extremely low crime rates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saudi_Arabia
A simple google search was enough from on your side, but since you don’t seem to be arguing in good faith, I put some wiki links for you
Well, I thought I had a little insight on the matter since I’m Italian, guess I was wrong. /s
Italy isn’t the only European country with lots of muslim immigrants though. Idk about Italy, but in Norway it’s 100% the culture people have a problem with
According to wikipedia you only have about 1% muslims.
That’s nothing (relatively speaking), and on par with Iceland. In Norway it’s at least 3,1%, with the capital itself having a ridiculous 12%
Right wing news outlets push Islamophobia hard. Same ones that love israel.
If you want to keep the imperialism going it’s important that people hate whatever culture you’re trying to invade so your country can “save it from barbarism”.
Consequences stemming from the destabilization of the middle east by foreign interference.
Not all European countries were even involved in the middle east. Yet they somehow have to take in muslim “refugees” and destabilize their own country in the process. Even if the countries were somehow involved, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the population of the given country approved of the involvement
I never said that one or the other european country was or wasn’t involved, but consequences of an action aren’t limited to who enacts it or to who is acted upon. Some here in these comments mention terrorism. As an example of what I meant when I said “consequences stemming from the destabilization of the middle east by foregin interference”, I will mention the perception of Islam as a religion that endorses terrorism as some here in the comments did. Religious extremism has only become a problem due to foreign interference. One of the most well known groups, ISIS, only became as strong as they became due to the Iraq war.
Yet they somehow have to take in muslim “refugees” and destabilize their own country in the process.
I don’t know if you are expressing your disapproval of their immigration, but I feel like we shouldn’t put the two kinds of “destabilization” on equal levels. I’m sure the german and french natives can’t say they have anywhere near as many problems as the people arriving. I also must note a certain double standard here in that I don’t see anyone speaking against receiving ukrainian refugees, despite those countries not being blamed with what is happening in Ukraine.
Because we’re getting overrun by them
Isn’t this unconstitutional?
It’s in italy, not the US.
Because the US is the only country with a constitution, amirite fellas?
Who said anything about the US?
Italy has a constitution, as far as I know most countries do
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_constitutions
I don’t know a whole lot about Italy, but being European i’d think they must have a similar baseline as other European countries.
Those laws mainly revolve around trade. There is the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) but that’s separate to EU membership. The relevent text is:
Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change her/his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest her/his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
- Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
So 9.2 probably applies but it’s subject to limitations in local law if they are deemed necessary to democracy and/or public safety. I doubt either of those could be reasonably argued, but they would have to be argued in court.
If I understand correctly Italy also has a constitution…
Not sure why everyone is downvoting the original commenter. He seems to be correct that this is not supported by the Italian constitution. Kinda feels like we all ignored how italy’s government actually works in favor of going “actually this isn’t about America”… In a way that seems distinctly like it would only be possible from an American perspective 😅
Sincerely, an American who knows little to nothing about Italy’s government
How about ban all prayers?
How about we invest in properly educating children so we won’t need to worry about religion anymore?
Religion is not necessarily a lack of education, perhaps there is a correlation where you live but it’s quite insulting to suggest this is universal
It seems to be, on the planet I live on. It’s literally trying to explain things with magic and imaginary creatures.
@SkippingRelax
You’re being willfully reductive… religion is not only a cosmogony, it is also (and often dominantly) a set of rites and laws. People have always been educated and religious. But then that varies locally and I don’t hope to invalidate your experience by stating that
I’m sure you’re a good person, and I don’t have much against religion as a concept, but on average it’s not a force that i consider positive for humanity, and religious establishment is very easily corrupted in every possible way.
Sounds like communism. Or Navalny, but he is busy being corpse.
What are you even trying to do with this comment?
I mentioned communism for obvious reasons and mentioned Navalny because incerease in education funding was part of his programme. And that he was killed.
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Ok. Then removing state funding and subsidies of all religions.
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- because they’re taxes and they should be used for the public good, not the good of a religious group
- because subsidies themselves are a flawed system. If it can’t compete in the Market on its own, shut it down.
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Wow. You went from 1.socialist to 2.liberal
You’re gonna have to pick one…
“Taxes should not be wasted” is now socialist instead of liberal?
and no, I am free to have my own Opinon on Stuff. I don’t have to “pick one Team”.
On this point, I’m on your team.
Secular state
hmmm… no ? you understand that would hurt many people ?
Ok. Then removing state funding and subsidies of all religions.
That’s reasonable and should be the default. No special treatment, but no special restrictions either. That’s only fair.
Are mosques and churches state funded in Italy?
Dunno. But they are in Russia. Fuck Putin.
Yes but then you’re hurting everyone equally. This is actually a better idea than discriminating against a single group because it’s actually fair.
anti-theists never care about the damage they inflict, as they are strong believers that the damages religion brings is infinitely worse than the atrocities they feel they must commit to eradicate it.
It’s just another flavor of fanaticism that feels entitled to their violent rhetoric because ‘they see more clearly’.
It’s the same euphoria any zealot feels.
Ahh yes, the atrocity of making it illegal. I’m not for making religion illegal but how is that in any way equal to even a portion of the violence caused by various religions?
Religion isn’t required for atrocities to happen, some of the most brutal regimes in the world are staunch atheists.
Do you have any idea what Russia did to the clergy after the revolution?
Or the absolute inhumanity by which the Chinese government has treated Tibetan monks?
All in the name of cleansing the world of ‘hateful religion’.
It’s so easy to turn a blind eye to your own side’s revolting history and pretend you have clean hands.
We’ve seen what happens when atheists take over, and it is ALWAYS followed by the blood of the faithful.
Religion isn’t required, but history has shown over and over that it is inevitable that atrocities are committed in the name of religion.
Why do religion get a pass, but a cult doesn’t? They operate the same way.
but history has shown over and over that it is inevitable that atrocities are committed in the name of religion.
Abusers will always seek positions of power to abuse from, the pedo elite in hollywood is proof of this, and only one of their kind was ever even brought up on charges in the last decade.
Same with the military
Same with the government
You just blame religion exclusively because some edgelad youtuber told you to.
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euphoria
euphoria
yea, it does strike similar
euphoria any zealot feels.
Thank you in advance for making me feel good about calling your god skydaddy. Why don’t you pray to it to stop me?
How about grow up and get over the fact your mommy wouldn’t let you take your DS to church.
Wow. Way to project.
Thankfuly almost nobody goes to church here. Only 1% of country’s population visited church on christmas.
A distant relative of my wife passed and it was a religious service. Because of that I the militant open atheist have attended services more times the past year than the average American theist.
Got to love progress:)
I was already an adult before portable gaming was a thing, and frankly I enjoyed and still enjoy going to church.
But I have seen literally hundreds of musguided young anti-theists just like you and the butthurt pattern is pretty recognizable.
euphoria
euphoria
Christianity did this.
Why are the Guardian and the Observer becoming aware of this fact that happened a month ago?
