I’m almost convinced that people don’t become ultraleft; they end up ultraleft. What type of confusion, abuse, bigotry, whatever- it doesn’t matter- turns someone into an ultraleft?

I’m at my wits end, are they just neoliberals that haven’t accepted that fact?

  • emizeko [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    Many westerners come to socialism not out of necessity, but out of disillusionment. We are raised with the idea that Liberal Democracy is the best system of political expression humanity has devised. When confronted with the reality of its shortcomings, rather than narrowly discard liberalism or electoralism, the western anti-capitalist tends to draw sweeping conclusions about the inadequacy of all existing systems. Curiously, though it would at first seem that such denunciations are more principled and severe, they are in fact more compatible with existing and widespread beliefs about the supremacy of the western system. That is to say, when a Marxist-Leninist asserts the superiority of existing socialist experiments, they are directly challenging the idea that westerners are at the forefront of political development. By contrast, the assertions from anarchists and social democrats that we need to build a more utopian future out of our current apex are compatible not only with each other, as discussed earlier, but also do not really offend bourgeois society at large. They in fact end up not sounding too different from the arch-imperialist Winston Churchill holding forth on how ours is the worst system, except for all the others which have been tried. Western chauvinists, consciously or unconsciously, struggle with the idea that they should study and humbly take lessons from the imperial periphery. [15] It is much easier for the chauvinist, psychologically, to position oneself as at the very front of a new vanguard.

    from https://redsails.org/why-marxism/

    • thebartermyth [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      6 months ago

      The footnote for this one has this quote too:

      Together, the three elements that I just described create a kind of narcissistic orgasm of defeat and purity. The subject takes pride in not having any relationship with the entire historic concrete movement of the working class socialist and liberation revolutions. They take pride in not having any theoretical or political connection to the revolutions in China, Russia, Korea, Vietnam, Algeria, Mozambique and Angola. They are, instead, proud of the supposed purity that their theory is not contaminated by the hardship of exercising power, by the contradictions of historical processes. Being pure is what provokes this narcissistic orgasm. This purity is what makes them feel superior.

      Western Marxism, the Fetish for Defeat, and Christian Culture - Jones Manoel

  • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    I’m sure there’s plenty of ways to arrive at ultraleftism. One is failing to shed the propaganda you’ve been fed your entire life, another is trying to triangulate “being on the left” and “being taken seriously by liberals” which necessitates condemning AES, and yet another might be “trying to make money on the maga communism circuit”, along with “paid by the FBI”.

  • Infamousblt [any]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    I think the kindest interpretation of ultras is that they move the line of “what is an acceptable level of mistakes for a country/movement/person/etc to make” all the way to zero. IE: If you have ever done anything wrong ever in history then you are immediately “not ethical” and therefore cannot be part of the leftist movement.

    It’s a really dumb way of thinking because it is absolutely impossible for any individual to be perfect for their entire existence, let alone a movement or a country. But if you know any real life ultras and talk to them about things, it always boils down to this. They do not do critical support; if there is anything to be critical of at all, then their support does not exist.

    I think on some level this makes sense; why should anyone ever accept any injustice whatsoever? It’s just not practical unfortunately to live as a human being among other human beings and expect that there will be zero mistakes and zero injustices. They’re going to happen. Even in a perfectly utopian communist society mistakes are going to happen. It’s not that we should accept ALL injustices, but we cannot expect ZERO injustices. Or we have to change the definition of what it means to accept them. Can someone make a mistake and then go through a restorative justice process? Does that count as “accepting” the injustice, or does it count as working to resolve it? An ultra wouldn’t believe in restorative justice, they would say that because an injustice happened the entity that caused it cannot be redeemed and must be utterly destroyed. Ironically I personally believe that the ultra take of “restorative justice is impossible” makes them the actual perpetrators of injustice, but that’s just me.

    I think the unkind interpretation of ultras is that they’re western government plants, which I’m sure at least some of them are.

    • Red_Eclipse [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      6 months ago

      I think the unkind interpretation of ultras is that they’re western government plants, which I’m sure at least some of them are.

      They definitely kept me from reaching my full communist awakening for a while. I was stuck in radlibville because these types would come out and bring up red scare propaganda or whatever mistakes they made and be like “SeE??? iT dOeSnT wOrK!!!” so it kinda just made me feel like ??? I guess you can’t do anything but vote then??? Idk (how convenient… ) thonk

  • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    It seems to attract disillusioned liberals who nominally claim to oppose class society but for whatever reason want western supremacy to somehow endure in the post-class society, it’s incoherent but it seems to be the emotional fuel that sustains alot of their hostile left bashing politics

    Also despite many ultras making a talismanic fetish out of theory, most of them seem to have never actually read it, over the years I grew more suspicious of these so-called loremasters and came up with three simple questions on theory to determine whether an ultra has read Marx, and I’m not kidding after asking maybe a dozen or more online ultras over the years NONE of them have answered all the questions correctly, most couldn’t even answer ONE right

    In the end I realized Matt Christman was 100% right, these aren’t political movements they’re online posting styles centered on a person’s idiosyncratic demographic priors and mediated thru online consumption

  • ReadFanon [any, any]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    One thing that I think isn’t exclusive to ultraleftists but which is a very influential force in ultraleftism is a purity fetish:

    This article on the topic is a banger and it should be mandatory reading for everyone in the radical left.

    I think that ultras are a lot like trots in how they essentially believe that you have to arrive at an immaculate position by divining the meaning of Marxist texts in order to achieve The Correct Position™, rather than actually rolling up your sleeves and doing the work to implement theory and to address the inherent contradictions as they emerge in order to make change.

    I also think that ultras have a similar tendency to some anarchists in that they adopt an ideological position of negation (and in the case of ultras especially, an intellectual position of negation too) where they can immediately dismiss attempts at revolution or achieving socialism as being somehow insufficient. In some anarchists, you see that with them immediately denouncing anything as “authoritarianism” and ultras take a similar mental shortcut except they use more words and quote more theory. “Hmph, you support Cuba? Read Bordiga’s [whatever] and you’ll understand why you are wrong, loser.

    Honestly so much of it just comes off as cope to me.

    Fortunately the price of admission for being an ultraleftist is high - you need to read a lot of theory, the movement is incredibly fractious (mostly because they aren’t focusing on achieving an actual, practical outcome through collaboration, and without that people tend to descend into petty bickering rather than developing community and learning to overcome differences through striving together to achieve the same thing), and they have basically relegated themselves to being above it all and separate from it all.

    This means they’re pretty inconsequential and they’re always going to be a fringe element because so much of their, whatever, identity/political position/project is invested in what is essentially armchair quarterbacking (pun intended) and thus they opt to be sidelined as a necessary precondition of being an ultraleftist. When I encounter them I pay them no mind.

  • CaliforniaSpectre [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    I have a question: are Trotskyists and ultras distinct?

    [Incoming rant]

    I have a friend in the UC grad student union (I’m currently not in the country but will be returning relatively soon to a UC myself). We used to live together and he’s pretty far left and all, but definitely always been a tad ultra. I was messaging him about orgs to join when I’m back when the craziest encampment action was happening. He said PSL has some members but seem “Stalinist” curious-sickle . He even said several members in his union are from PSL (super cool honestly), but that they were refusing to push the union to actively vote a statement of solidarity with palestine or something. He was critical of them being too bureaucratic about stuff like that.

    Then he told me about the Revolutionary Communists of America and said they seem pretty cool dean-smile . I thought hmmm okay I’ll check them out. They were recently founded (insert existential comic joke about leftist parties). They had a podcast and one episode was like “Why we are Leninists” and I was like lenin-heart.

    I’m listening and hear a lot of Lenin, Marx, no Stalin though. They say “we get criticism for handing out flyers at protests but that’s because we want to build the party to solve all the protests!!1!” lenin-sure. At this point I’m like no pls, next they bring up directly “a lot of people ask if we’re ‘Trotskyists’, haha the internet has such funny slang doesn’t it. Well, let’s just read what Trotsky said about…” blah blah basically yeah that Stalin re-established class society in USSR etc etc. dean-frown stalin-bummed

    So yeah I was pretty burned because it seems the trots get their marketing down pretty well these days. There were a few signs that slipped right past me.

    • ReadFanon [any, any]@hexbear.net
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      6 months ago

      Honestly imo Trots and ultras can feel very similar and they can come off as virtually identical.

      I think there’s some key differences in how they approach things and how they go about what they do, but if you put me in a room with 5 trots and 5 ultras it would take me a while to figure out which was which.

      It’s a lot like syndicalism vs council communism or Titoism vs market socialism or [CW for a hot take] platformism vs vanguardism/Bolshevism; maybe the road is slightly different or (lol) the ideological window-dressing is distinct but you end up at essentially the same place regardless. How much emphasis you want to put on the ideological currents behind these movements compared to assessing their impact and outcome, and how exactly you want to attribute things to either being ideologically-driven or a product of material conditions, is a personal matter imo.

      • Acute_Engles [he/him, any]@hexbear.net
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        5 months ago

        It was the anti China stuff for me. Anyone defending a single thing that china did was banned for being a dengist. There was like a feud with genzedong over it I believe too. Every time another community tried to merge or reach out they weren’t left enough. I’m actually still technically in there I just have it on mute.

  • Evilphd666 [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    6 months ago

    Neolibs ahven’t accept the fact they’re now Bush Cheney levels of fascists. So you seem “ultra left” for…having empathy and standards. Thier ship of state has already sunk and are in denial.

    • mayo_cider [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      6 months ago

      Liberals don’t even know the term “ultraleft”, if someone calls you ultraleft they are either a commie or an anarchist, if you call yourself ultraleft try to actually read some theory