• SadArtemis [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    2·
    2 months ago

    I think you’re confused about what capital is to begin with (in BashfulBob’s comment at least). Capital is the means of production. It’s the machinery, the tools, etc. Capitalists are called that because they own those things. Under socialism, the workers will own it (directly or via the state), but the capital still exists. You definitely cannot have industry without it.

    Still low energy and woke up (dysfunction) but this cinched it, admittedly- I’m certain now that the confusion is on your end.

    Capital =/= the means of production (though under capitalism as a system has control of said means of production).

    Hell, the theoretical end goal of communism is to abolish capital- not just “capitalism,” but capital. And certainly it is undeniable if you think of it- the means of production existed long before “capital” ever did.

    And yes, money is capital. Whether that “capital/money” be in imaginary fiat currency, imaginary stonks, imaginary ugly digital apes, or gold and silver (which while having true value, all the same are used as a measure and form of speculation).

    Think about it. Do you really think communists seek to “abolish” the means of production? Do you think that capitalists simply arbitrarily own the means of production through some magic mumbo jumbo rather than through the mechanism of capital? I don’t know where you got the idea that capital = the means of production from, but I’m sure that it is doing far more harm than good in preventing actual understanding of the subject.

      • SadArtemis [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
        1·
        2 months ago

        You should probably take your own advice. I’m not humoring this anymore, hopefully someone else will knock you out of it. Imagine thinking capital = the means of production. You may be communist or think you are (probably are just deeply ill informed) but this is ridiculous, you’ve internalized the neoliberal brainrot concepts over what is actually and tangibly presented within Marxist or even classical liberal analysis.

        • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          2·
          2 months ago

          You are correct, sorry! I was at work when I replied earlier and didn’t read you properly or didn’t comprehend properly what you were saying, so yes, the confusion was on my end. I’ll delete my previous comment.

          The use of the word “capital” to mean machinery etc is colloquial and non-Marxist. Marx uses the more specific term “constant capital” to refer to capitalist investment in these things, while “capital” itself is a broader term referring to the social relation of self expanding value of which these things are simply a part. Thank you for setting me straight, usually I’m pretty good at understanding when the word is being used in the colloquial sense vs the Marxist sense but again I was sloppy because I was replying while at work and not paying enough attention.

          Now that I think we are on the same page let me try again with the point of my original comment, I was just trying to clear up where I think you were talking past the other user because they were using the word one way and you were using it in the more correct Marxist way. I think when the others were speaking of countries “recapitalizing”, they meant onshoring, or bringing the constant capital back into their own borders.

          • SadArtemis [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
            3·
            2 months ago

            I- huh. Thanks for clearing it up, sounds like we were both reading each other wrong (speaking the wrong language effectively) then.

            NGL thanks for responding on that actually, I actually was disappointed at what seemed like the end result of the conversation (seemed so close and yet so very far). FWIW I also was being sloppy and not paying the most attention (as said in various other comments- tired, no energy for it).

            I think when the others were speaking of countries “recapitalizing”, they meant onshoring, or bringing the constant capital back into their own borders.

            And yeah, their take on it was what I was trying to respond to initially.

            • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              2·
              2 months ago

              speaking the wrong language effectively

              Yeah exactly this. I basically have a habit of code switching and using more colloquial terms and definitions when I talk about capitalism and these things with people in the workplace or normie online spaces like Reddit, but I should have remembered where I was and that people on this forum tend to discuss things with more precise Marxist understanding. Thanks again for your efforts to explain it and helping me get those wires un-crossed in my head.

              As I was driving home from work I listened to this video which helped me realize where I was going wrong. If you ever find yourself getting frustrated having to explain this to somebody in the future maybe you can link them to this, it is professor Wolff explaining essentially what you said in a succinct way.

              https://youtu.be/6fOtDtAjtdY