Aahhh, and another Lemmy oversimplification of complicated subjects.
Just say that capitalism is the guilty one and see the upvotes come in. Let’s not go into the actual complicated reasons, just blame capitalism and then we can all circle jerk about how beautiful communism is, how communism never caused any harm whatsoever, and how any historical fact is a capitalist lie.
I’ve had quite a few interesting conversations here
Expecting complex thought from tankies is your mistake here.
If they were able to understand complex topics they would not be tankies.
Lol I get your point but you definitely don’t have to be a tankie to see that capitalism is dogshit.
Eh, even though i disagree with the entirety of the tankies’ positions, I wouldn’t say they are unable to understand complex topics. Reading and understanding Marx alone is quite the herculean task. I’d say it’s less of complex understanding abilities and more of fanaticism for the unorthodox.
80% of tankies have never read Marx. Guaranteed.
Fair enough. Many on lemmy.ml seem to have though, and i typically use them as a benchmark when referring to tankies
Quoting/copy-pasting isn’t the same thing as understanding it though.
What makes you think they don’t understand it?
One of these things is not like the others…
Don’t get me wrong, I am about as anti-capitalist as they come, but, what?
You’ve never heard “fascism is capitalism in decay” before?
Only on Lemmy tbh
“Things I don’t like” are not all the same thing, even if they are all justifiably unlikeable.
You’ll find much use for this around lemmy.
I don’t think you understand capitalism. Or the Confederacy. Or Nazi Germany.
The Confederacy’s main goal was to keep the right to own slaves (Ofc now racist MAGAts will claim it was about “sTaTEs RiGhTs”) because slave labor was (and still is, unfortunately) the cheapest labor around and having a drive to get the cheapest most exploited labor you can is what happens with capitalism.
Nazi Germany’s rise was fueled by widespread misery and discontent among the German populace because of Capitalism-based ‘war reparations’ like the burdensome payments mandated by the Treaty of Versailles, which crippled the economy and fueled resentment that the Nazis could exploit. Had it not been for capitalism, there might have been little desire to ruthlessly pursue monetary compensation like that and WWII might not have ever happened.
The Confederacy’s main goal was to keep the right to own slaves (Ofc now racist MAGAts will claim it was about “sTaTEs RiGhTs”) because slave labor was (and still is, unfortunately) the cheapest labor around and having a drive to get the cheapest most exploited labor you can is what happens with capitalism.
This may come as a shock, but slave labor predates capitalism, and the capitalist development of the Northern states quite explicitly undermined the viability of slave labor (hence the rebellion).
Nazi Germany’s rise was fueled by widespread misery and discontent among the German populace because of Capitalism-based ‘war reparations’ like the burdensome payments mandated by the Treaty of Versailles, which crippled the economy and fueled resentment that the Nazis could exploit.
No. This is a common misconception - the economic effects of the Treaty of Versailles were minimal on Germany, with even the famed short period of hyperinflation coming from an attempt by the German government to wiggle out of paying in a legalistic sense (it, obviously, did not work). The Nazis rose because they exploited the sense of nationalist grievance which the monarchist right had cultivated in response to losing WW1 and losing their precious monarchy with it. The German economy was not in particularly dire straits compared to other European nations of the time - but only Germany was nursing wounded pride over their ‘glorious’ empire being cut to ribbons.
Had it not been for capitalism, there might have been little desire to ruthlessly pursue monetary compensation like that and WWII might not have ever happened.
… capitalism is certainly not the cause for the Entente demanding war reparations, man.
Nazi Germany’s rise was spurred by multiple things lole wounded national pride, resentment over the loss of their monarchy, and a general feeling of “betrayal” following World War I. But calling the Treaty of Versailles’ economic impact minimal is a great understatement. The burdensome capitalism-based war reparations and Germany’s reliance on foreign loans created cycles of hyperinflation, unemployment, and economic instability, which were in turn exploited by Nazi propaganda promising revival and strength (heh side note, sound familiar? Hmm). While the reasons for their rise are complex between nationalism, political upheaval, and social tension, the economic hardship def played a significant role in amplifying that discontent. It’s entirely possible that WWII could have still occurred without like a factor or 2, which is why I said it might not have happened without the relentless focus on extracting monetary compensation for the war
As far as slaves, yes that’s true, it did exist before. But Capitalism definitely continued to drive it longer than when it would have come to a natural end
But calling the Treaty of Versailles’ economic impact minimal is a great understatement. The burdensome capitalism-based war reparations and Germany’s reliance on foreign loans created cycles of hyperinflation, unemployment, and economic instability,
This literally isn’t true though. Weimar Germany only experienced hyperinflation once, under the circumstances outlined previously, and they were quite economically strong before the Great Depression, which affected all developed nations of the world. The economic impact of the Treaty of Versailles was minimal, regardless of what role you think capitalism played in Nazi Germany’s rise.
As far as slaves, yes that’s true, it did exist before. But Capitalism definitely continued to drive it longer than when it would have come to a natural end
… what do you think ended chattel slavery in the developed world?
I promise you, the ruling class of Britain in the early 1800s was not even close to socialist.
Capitalism is not good. Capitalism is not ideologically opposed to slavery. And capitalism absolutely can cannibalize itself and return to a more feudal mode of existence. But the mechanisms of capitalism mean that, in a closed system, chattel slavery and capitalism remain at odds. Chattel slaves cannot provide a strong consumer base or fluid labor force.
What if we switch the ‘economic impact of Treaty of Versailles’ for ‘economic impact of the Great Depression’ ? Then wouldn’t have a crisis in capitalism triggered a rise in fascism?
Plus, as we see today, many business owners join hard right to far right movement when they fear crisis might push people toward revolutionary left. I think that’s what is meant when saying nazism build upon capitalism defeat.
What if we switch the ‘economic impact of Treaty of Versailles’ for ‘economic impact of the Great Depression’ ? Then wouldn’t have a crisis in capitalism triggered a rise in fascism?
That would be more applicable, yes, though I would still point to numerous other factors as more important.
Capitalism was the one main force pushing for the end of slavery at the Contemporaneous Age. It’s basically the reason most of the world doesn’t have it anymore.
(And yeah, I mean modern Capitalism, that appeared after the Industrial Revolution.)
Yeah, slave labor is cheap, but have you ever picked cotton? It’s a special kind of hell. Grew some because I thought my daughter would love it. Nope, she didn’t care.
When it’s ready to pick the boll pops open and the leaves turn hard and sharp. First time I stuck my finger in there, the edge instantly slid under my skin 15mm. So sharp it hardly bled vs. damage done. I couldn’t replicate that wound so quickly with a pocket knife. It’s like a flower surrounded by scalpels.
Despite immediate and modern first aid, antiseptics, antibiotics, changing bandages, etc., it was so infected it took three weeks to heal and I couldn’t bend that finger for two. For comparison, I can heal a deep scratch in 3-days (with a hydrocolloid bandaid).
Dad was a bouncer, told me the trick was to never get hit because 5 fights a week, 5 small wounds, shit adds add up because you can’t heal that fast. Imagine catching one cotton-picking wound a day. By the end of the week you won’t be able to make a fist.
Seems like you could just be careful? Nah, forgot to mention, you often can’t see the blades. Also, you have to gather enough, fast enough, to make a buck. Takes me a couple minutes to clear one raggedy plant, imagine football fields worth of tall, healthy plants. Now how are you gonna pay someone enough to pick it fast enough? You’re gonna need slaves because you can’t whip a free man into doing that shit fast enough.
On top of that, getting the seeds out was hell before the cotton gin. I invite you to try it for yourself, and please don’t waste the cotton threads. In that second pic, there are easily 25 seeds in there. Again, shitloads of labor for small gain. Slaves were the only way to make a buck. In supreme irony, the cotton gin jump started the South’s cotton plantations and gave them a reason to acquire more slaves.
Do this fast, bent at the waist, from just before sunup to just after sundown. Every day. Until you die.
tl;dr: Slavery was worse than most think for the cotton picking alone.
Let’s lighten the mood! This shit has had me howling for over a decade.
Nazi Germany based their laws in the US, specifically laws that came from former Confederates.
Capitalism, like those two ideologies, is inherently racist and requires constant violence to uphold.
This coming from the poster who thinks American minorities deserve genocide because Palestine is being genocided by Israel, lmao
No, it’s a natural result of their support for genocide. It’s no more of a ‘deserve’ than 1+1 deserves 2.
You people voted for this, you’re just upset it’ll now affect you.
Oh are we doing the BlUEMaGa bull again lol, yea, because Harris was SO BAD for Israel, definitely not like Drump is gonna give them a blank check and all the weapons they could ask for or anything LMAO
A blank check for genocide is a blank check for genocide. Declaring you’re not changing the genocidal policy of your predecessor is that black check.
Israel is already getting everything they want from Biden. There are fucking US troops on the ground. There is a carrier group off the coast. What the fuck more are you imagining that Trump has to give them? Nukes? The US already gave Israel nukes.
Capitalism doesn’t mind Fascism. But that doesn’t mean it is Fascism.
Capitalism is exactly the basis of fascism. Fascism can’t happen without it.
Strongly hierarchical militaristic authoritarian control predates capitalism. Hell it predates the invention of money.
There’s a good chance that money was invented to help raise armies.
If anything, I’d say fascism is the basis for capitalism, not the other way round.
You’re right, but not all hierarchical militaristic control is fascism.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Might be the dumbest thing I’ve read today.
But well, I bite. Pls elaborate why an open market enables fascism.
Open market has nothing to do with capitalism. Both communism and socialism can have open markets, as well as feudalism and mercantilism.
To answer the underlying question, fascism is the combination of state and corporate power, according to the father of fascism.
Yeah, because Soviet Russia wasn’t impressive at all.
This is like the ship of Theseus, but if instead of replacing one board at a time you just bought a new ship that looked kinda similar a bunch of times.
