Sorry, my solidarity is reserved for states who DON’T support the genocide in Gaza
Any US users here talking revolutionary defeatism need to stop bringing up Canada and exercise it IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY first. Seek the defeat of your own imperial power’s ambitions above all else, yes Canada is imperialist too but a strengthened US is clearly a worse outcome than a battered Canada which if successful in remaining sovereign would absolutely move away from the imperialist western bloc. Yes the Canadian liberals will quickly sell out sovereignty for their own gain but if pressures in the US prolong the process then a resistance can be mounted outside of the bourgeois govt structures as they exist and something new can be born to the North. This would be the result of successful application of this concept in both countries it’s not that hard to not be chauvinistic
“If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances.” - Harry S. Truman
Replace Germany with the US and Russia with Canada. Tho its more likely that its a Germany-France scenario and Canada immediately surrenders.
Greenland should be an independent country for Inuit people. Mayos out
If someone woke up from a 7 month coma today, I’m telling them this discourse is the result of the Kendrick v Drake beef.
The US successfully annexing more land would be very bad even if those countries themselves are also bad. The US is at or near the height of its geopolitical power and is clearly in a new cold war with China. So I guess I don’t disagree, I’m not gonna play defense for Canada or Denmark, but we should play defense for AES countries and the struggle for the global working class.
Absolutely no doubt, this should be the main take here it’s basic revolutionary defeatism for US citizens
Never thought I would have to say this for
but…Hexbears leaning into imperialist chauvinism when the empire goes after a country they don’t like? Wild, not okay
It would be one of the greatest political opportunities on this continent in a long time if this happened. The Canadian Nazis everyone here hates, rightly, and which ppl have also apparently decided everyone in Canada (including the indigenous peoples stuck under the setter-colonial system of “Canada”) deserves some kind of ontological punishment for, I guess, are the people the US is gonna put in power or at least use to repress any movement that could resist this. Omg I know, I’m really doing “not all Canadians” but fuck, the imperial relationship does make us do the strangest things. Sometimes a reactionary power can transform into a revolutionary one in the right context. Even the Redditors talking about how willing they are to die “for their country” would have to decide quickly how to navigate this situation and how they actually feel about “their country” when the existing government probably immediately collaborates with the Americans to hand over the country
There is no progressive way to “put on the American trucker hat” and take pleasure in the destruction of yet another country’s (at least kinda existing)-sovereignty before the empire’s military. This “joke” is only something Americans can even do lol
Im actually fully in agreement. Of course, the idea of the USA annexing Canada is laughable right now, but if you entertain it for a moment… it could shatter the entire Western order. Not because Canada could resist the USA, but because it would break the very foundations many people believe the Western world is built upon.
Even a relatively bloodless annexation has massive potential to radicalize the masses within the imperial core.
The illusion of Western liberal rules-based order was already shattered when the US confiscated $300 billion of Russia’s foreign reserves in 2022.
Everyone back then said “the trust of the dollar has been broken”, nobody’s going to trust the US again. That’s completely correct, and what has been unveiled instead is that US imperialism is never run on “trust” or “rules”, but on coercion.
So, guess what, nearly three years later, the foreign treasury holdings in the US has reached an all-time peak in 2024 at $8.5 trillion! Despite the blatant “stealing” of Russia’s foreign reserves, foreign countries still continue to buy US treasuries like it is the most precious asset in the world.
The dollar hegemony remains unbroken because there is no alternative to the dollar system, and as long as there is no alternative and challenge to it (to be fair, the Europeans tried, and look how the US properly disciplined the EU), everyone will have to play by the rules set by the US. There is no Soviet Union to save us this time.
The illusion of Western liberal rules-based order was already shattered when the US confiscated $300 billion of Russia’s foreign reserves in 2022.
Most people I know who aren’t leftists don’t see it that way. They’ve been brainwashed into thinking that Russia is some uniquely evil antagonist to the supposed rules based international order. It’s really easy to provide counter-examples but they’ve also been conditioned to buy into imperialist thought relatively uncritically as long as it’s a liberal eurocentric imperialism. After all, the US ruling class are just an even more self-righteous flavor of the european ruling class.
Yeahh, you’re right ofc, anyone who was paying attention already saw through this lol
But it does make you pay attention when the US invades your country which would be new for many/most of the imperial core residents of
it could shatter the entire Western order. Not because Canada could resist the USA, but because it would break the very foundations many people believe the Western world is built upon.
Yes. The primary argument in favor of NATO and US imperialism in the Eastern Europe is “protection”. When the US becomes the invader of a Western country, this facade breaks.
Oh yus, it would be fucking wild lmao. It would certainly be a great opportunity for us, which is probably why they won’t do it anyway…
Ofc like you said, there’s no way Canada is going to be able to oppose the US militarily, in the conventional way at least, but they might get some guerilla movements I hope?
Trump literally said that he will not use military force, but economic force, to annex Canada, and there is nothing Canada can do about it if the US really wants to.
What you’ll see is Canada folding under sanctions just like the Europeans did.
Am rly unsure how this will play out if he actually means it seriously as a policy and the other stewards of the empire go along with it
Cuz if they are no longer satisfied with the imperial-partner relationship with Canada and want actual de jure control over the country, which is quite rare in the neocolonial era, it would be even more overtly imperialistic than American involvement in Europe. The European states aren’t US states at least lol. Maybe they could get Canada to do it through economic force (would this be a first? Annexation via sanctions I mean) but in the context of all the other shit he’s talking about use of military force I don’t rly think we should rule it out on the basis of him saying he won’t use military force in this instance. All this shit seems reckless as hell from their perspective but maybe they do have some kind of new grand plan to stop American imperial decline, if we accept this is even possibly going to happen I don’t think we can rule very much out at this point
I think full military engagement is extremely unlikely though ofc
Just imagining lib Canadians finding out really fast how it feels to be on the other side of imperialism and having to figure out mass politics lol
Critical support (all uncritical support is unprincipled) to the Albertan protracted people’s war
. Nah hehe, tbh I donut know enough about Canadian politics to even begin to know what that would look like…Exactly. The chance of Marines storming Alberta is like 0…and one has to assume some higher ups would be aware of all the implictions a US annexation of Canada would have. But who knows…
Hexbears leaning into imperialist chauvinism when the empire goes after a country they don’t like?
I mean to be fair often those are their true colors lol.
Its uhhhhh getting better seemingly. This forum remains quite brainwormed but I think some of the ideological struggling of the last few months has had a good effect even if the site is still very white and American :/
It’s still so far ahead of the vast majority of spaces on the English-speaking internet at least
Yeah. It’s really bleakly depressing, isn’t it?
Just remember in any war of US imperialism the bourgeoisie of the invaded country suffers the least. The people who will suffer the most are the indigenous people of Canada and Greenland who will have their treaties annulled along with the poor and working class who rely on the basic social services Canada offers that the US does not.
Canada as a state sucks and the people in charge would deserve it, but they will not suffer, everyone else will.
Unfortunately this is correct, the bourgeoisie will likely privately support such an invasion, if they think that they personally benefit.
Whoops America invaded and annulled your protects, that’s terrible too bad there’s nothing I can do about it.
Privately!? O’Leary is on Fox news happily deepthroating for his new overlords.
Particularly because the main things of interest to the US in Canada are resources and access to the North, both areas where indigenous people punch above their weight in Canada’s political economy.
As others said before it is HIGHLY unlikely to happen…but if the US seriously would invade Canada I would at the very least give critical support to Canada. It would be another mark against the US on the Worldstage if the US invaded or even peacefully annexed one of its closest allies. It would make even NAFO dogs uneasy if that happened. Now this is not me saying it would be good if it happened…but if it happened I feel like it could increase the instability of the Western block by a lot.
My 2cents as an Armchair historian
spoiler
(More seriously, revolutionary defeatism is probably the correct stance along side solidarity with any indigenous and socialist resistance groups)
“I’m an anti-imperialist socialist! Oh except for when the target of imperialism is a country I don’t like”
For fucks sake is this the state of western leftist discourse now? Honestly it’s not too far from the “I want to support Gaza, but the Moooozlims there are anti-LGBT so yeah…” shit that liberals say.
Canada is not a socialist state, Canada is not a former colony with a national liberation government, Canada is an imperialist power (oppressed indigenous population notwithstanding) and as such the Revolutionary Defeatist principle holds real firm
There can’t be any defense of Canada for the simple reason the “legitimate government” will become quisling the moment any real force is applied by the United States, and what’s the alternative framework? Fight to the last Canadian? Or god help us, Fight to the last First National? You want to copy the Ukraine model of “solidarity”?
The criteria of critical support or support in general isn’t based on a person’s idiosyncratic ideas of what nations they happen to like or dislike, it’s based on a nation’s relationship with global imperialism and sorry, but Canada is firmly embedded in the heart of imperialism and as a result we move from critical support to defeatism
Now if an indigenous and general socialist resistance movement develops as a result of the imperialist struggle, THEN we can talk about support, critical or otherwise
What happens when the imperial partner of an imperialist power becomes a target of that imperial power? Canada only gets to do imperialism in the context of the Americans letting them and helping them do it. They don’t have the independent military or financial power to do independent imperial adventures
No one is cheering when other non-socialist states have even vestigial sovereignty stripped away (at least they shouldn’t be), even if they may be complicit in imperialism themselves by cooperation with imperial powers and regardless of that and the above, this isn’t like an inter-imperialist conflict cuz this isn’t about the division of the some parts of the world and other countries between the conflicting powers, this is about the country of Canada itself coming under the complete control of the US without any imperial-partner conditions. This is why I think the relationship of Canada to imperialism will have changed if this happens (unlikely anyway)
And cuz it’s about this relationship (we both agree on this), even a reactionary force can become a revolutionary one in the context of an anti-imperialist struggle. Yeah, it’s a settler-colonial country, but is there any outcome where American control doesn’t make shit even worse for indigenous peoples? Every concession won will have to be won again from the Americans (without even considering the possible involvement of American military forces)
Now if an indigenous and general socialist resistance movement develops as a result of the imperialist struggle, THEN we can talk about support, critical or otherwise
This is exactly the problem, that your anti-imperialism is conditional and until any (hypothetical) national resistance struggle meets your criteria, you effectively have the position of any other imperialist chauvinist, just couched in the language of online leftism
but the fireballs are American bombs I guessOmg, I hate this argument, this is so silly. Cuz tbh, the settler Canadian government doesn’t have the juice to resist this shit anyway if it gets real, probably the only good and possible outcome of any effective resistance to this hypothetical unlikely thing is an indigenous and (fuckin hopefully, if the settler-leftists will go for it I guess) general socialist resistance movement
Idk, in summary… were the Chinese communists wrong for working with Chiang Kai-Shek in the anti-Japanese war? I’m not saying uncritical support or smth but what does anyone gain besides the imperialists from the total subjection of imperialist partners besides some kind of misanthropic glee? It only increases the amount of resources the Great Satan has under its direct control and forfeits the opportunity to work inside and with the resistance forces to gain control over the outcome and political character of those resistance forces
Get his ass.
Canada isn’t simply in cooperation WITH imperialism, IT IS an imperialist power, you need to do research on the havoc Canadian mining firms wreck across the world and the support Canada offers to neo-nazis forces globally
The fact an imperialist power can lose an inter-imperialist conflict doesn’t negate the fact of what it’s government and institutions are, and those relationships don’t change even if it loses, it simply switches ownership to a new set of imperialists, again we wouldn’t be dealing with a national liberation government struggling against a bully, we’d be dealing with a quisling government getting wacked by its overlord, and you’re saying the socialist position should be to intervene and prop up the quislings for the sake of…national pride? A vague sense of sovereignty? A hopeless hope of settlers joining forces with the indigenous? Like NO flat out, NO
This is exactly the problem, that your anti-imperialism is conditional and until any (hypothetical) national resistance struggle meets your criteria
There is no ideological conditionality or criteria on my part, it simply needs to possess the quality of EXISTING, and that’s independent of any list of ideals I would prefer, my comment you quoted is simply me not taking the idea of imaginary revolutions seriously
Cuz tbh, the settler Canadian government doesn’t have the juice to resist this shit anyway if it gets real
Exactly, so WHY DO YOU WANT US TO SUPPORT IT lMAO!??! What cause it’s the “moral” and “neighborly” thing to do? I’m not a Canadian nationalist
Idk, in summary… were the Chinese communists wrong for working with Chiang Kai-Shek in the anti-Japanese war?
The Sino-Japanese War was not an inter-imperialist conflict, it was a war of annihilation and fascist expansion, is the US gonna genocide the Canucks now?
Canada isn’t simply in cooperation WITH imperialism, IT IS an imperialist power, you need to do research on the havoc Canadian mining firms wreck across the world and the support Canada offers to neo-nazis forces globally
It is, my point is that nothing they do happens without the approval of the US and the assistance of its financial and military institutions. It would be one thing if Americans intervened only when their own interests were threatened but they don’t, they intervene when any member of their imperialist bloc’s interests are threatened (at least when it’s not in the US interests to abandon them) because there can be no alternative. Nationalizing Canadian mines is just as threatening to them as nationalizing American ones in this aspect
There is no ideological conditionality or criteria on my part, it simply needs to possess the quality of EXISTING, and that’s independent of any list of ideals I would prefer, my comment you quoted is simply me not taking the idea of imaginary revolutions seriously
Tbh the only reason I’m even engaging in this silly argument is cuz its obviously about more than about a hypothetical “Canadian” national liberation struggle (lmao), but, for me, cuz there is a tendency on this website for people to work themselves up into unhealthy, misanthropic rages about abstract ideas of geopolitical struggle to the point where its honestly uncomfortable :( and it deserves criticism. Idk what this is about to you but why did you make this post if this is about something you don’t even take seriously?
You’re legit reading the worst things possible into what I said. This isn’t about morals at all to me (well maybe a little, I donut like imperial machinations on a moral level too) but I feel like we need to be able to distinguish cracks and contradictions between the imperialist powers if we want to take advantage of them and this is a big one lol
This shit is honestly upsetting me and I can’t think critically about my position or your position anymore tbh, I’m disengaging respond if you want
You’re legit reading the worst things possible into what I said
lmao I got called an “imperial chauvinist” and a “raging misanthrope” in this thread because I think critical support for an imperialist government that gave a standing ovation to an SS officer isn’t a tenable position for socialists to advance, so let’s not get precious or in our feelings all right
OBVIOUSLY we extend solidarity to the working class of Canada no matter what the US and the SS loving Canuck state decides to do, but that is not the same thing as cheerleading whatever bullshit response the Canadian gov cooks up in response to Trump’s expansionist mood, especially when that response will be, as some comments have already predicted; a partial or full surrender
i got into feelings but also apology
Yeah fuck it I’m getting into feelings cuz this is the only site i ever feel comfortable rarely putting my fucking embarrassing feelings , i can angry debate anywhere else on the internet
I’m sorry, I came into this thread with way too many assumptions
I hate this site for how debatey and hostile it is, it seeps into everything including how I interact with it. I should have engaged in some kind of better way. I’m not even okay with dogpiling libs anymore it just creates a horrible atmosphere and I’m not gonna do it anymore
I hope I didn’t upset you when I said those things, I’m sorry
I’m gonna take a site break, maybe forever cuz this has upset me way way too much and i feel like this may keep happening if i stay here cuz its not the first time
i said I was disengaging before but i saw this and had to reply, im going for real now
i will think about what you said it was never my intent to run defense for settler colonialism and that was maybe what i was doing
Disagreements happen, you had your takes, I had mine, we both should’ve been more charitable, but misunderstandings happen in the heat of the moment and perhaps I was a little too defensive, I’m sorry too
You didn’t upset me and I hope I didn’t ruin your day cause that’s the last thing I want, you got a big heart comrade and that’s no crime, have a good night
we really don’t think this will happen right? like clearly being used by trump to just distract from the existing shitty material conditions in the US
The question is whether this is one of those moments like when trump was first elected in 2016.
Everyone thought “ok yeah it COULD happen, but things would have to get pretty bad for THAT domino to fall”, and then it happened and everyone who wanted to could look back and see that the domino pieces had in fact already fallen, things HAD gotten that bad, and now everyone can say “oh it was obvious” when at the time it was more difficult.
Same with russia invading ukraine, there were a lot of reasons to believe it wouldn’t happen because it seemed like a dumb move, but at the same time there were people (of the marxist variety) going “ok but this is actually a huge number of troops to be stationing near the border and pulling them back would incurr a political cost, and also putin has some reasons to believe he has to do this soon”.
So with trumps contemporary outrageous tweets, which are a step above his former outrageous tweets, like, that “invading mexico/canada/greenland” domino SEEMS to me like it’s way far off, and I’m not actually seeing any intelligent analysis on why trump or those around him actually would do this.
So I’m inclined to think it’s bullshit and we’re just falling for his shtick like liberals always do
No chance.
I don’t know, this could be one of those bizarre moments in history where Trump is actually pushing on an unlocked door and one year from now theres US National Guard in Calgary and everyone’s like “This is Fine”
I think it wont actually be a cool enough timeline for there to be a war between the NATOs. More likely they just sign some treaty making a North American Union and become defacto territories without a fight while maintaining some autonomy.
If the Amerikkkan empire really start cannibalizing itself tho i will laugh my ass off.
It’d be really funny if the Canadians/Danes used the 2nd amendment more effectively against the American regime then Americans do though.
It’d never happen because Canadians are even more domesticated then us Americans (And the Danes/Greenland are too small and distant). Just imagining a Quebecois “Lone Moose” getting some politician and everyone freaking out when they realize these FRENCH people are now AMERICANS?? would be peak.
Quebec is excluded from the annexation
But they’re forced to still call themselves Canada and remain bilingual.
I’d rather have Norway or Sweden tbh.
Saw a reddit thread of Canadians all saying they would die for their awful settler-colonial country, and it’s like… why?
Anyway amending my previous statement that if America went to war i would join the military in order to do some fifth column sabotage - I’m only willing to do that in defense of a non-white country, frankly.
I wouldn’t die to protect the government of canada, but i would fight like hell to avoid strengthening and becoming part of US imperialism. Like Canada is not great, but a US that spans all of north america is a hell of a lot worse.
Saw a reddit thread of Canadians all saying they would die for their awful settler-colonial country, and it’s like… why?
Fucking nobody would even have time to die for Canada lmao, all the major population centers, half the vital infrastructure, most of the major military bases, and the capitol are like two hours from the American border
If the US invaded the war would be over with a total US victory before the news could even start running breaking stories about it
Makes sense. The only identity Canadians have is “not american”. At least America has the whole history of rebelling against the British empire
If they want to die for their nation, they wouldn’t sign NAFTA and relinquished their sovereignty.
They didn’t sign NAFTA, the conservatives did that.
extremely critical support while holding my nose.
because if Satan himself would arrive and attack the USA I would support him.
His only crime was rebellion against a tyrant, so uncritical support for The Hornéd One.
Lucifer was the first revolutionary.
Why would he attack himself
“If fighting broke out between Satan and America, I would stand with Satan, because America is the Greater Satan.”
- Abu Alaa Al-Walai, Secretary-General of the Iraqi Shiite militia Kata’ib Sayyid Al-Shuhada
Is that where the great Satan comes from?
No, pretty sure it’s from Ayatollah Khomeini c. 1979.
This is the right answer as far as I know. I just quoted the Memri.tv meme that someone posted the picture of below (that I just realised).
This is slander against Satan. He’d never authorize a genocide like Big G did more then once.
It’s the final evolution of haterism
i would need to know what Satan himself is about tbqh but i wouldn’t rule this out either.
what’s the worst that could happen? that satan also supports genocide in gaza? in that case, let them fight…
Going to vote in '28 and having to choose between 101% Hitler ® and Satan (D)
your soul is damned either way
i buddy up with evil out of like, what, spite? nah, there are other roads but maybe this satan guy has some good points that could win in the marketplace of ideas…
