You arent patriotic towards a state, you are patriotic towards a nation, towards the people. You think Mao only became patriotic for China when the PRC was founded? Please tell me, is Joe Sims a reactionary because he upholds proletarian patriotism?
Thats the point of patriotism, loving your people, fighting for their rights. Its not about “being proud and complacent of how great everything is”, thats propaganda spoonfed to you yankees since primary school.
Settler states even, like Israel or the US? Those built by having a settler garrison of poor proles wiping out and clearing the land of indigenous peoples? What’s there to be proud of about that?
Proletarian patriotism is love towards the people, towards the nation (or several nations in complex examples like USA). Its not love towards the bourgeois state, thats bourgeois patriotism.
Do you love the poor proles from europe who came to the US to evict the indigenous inhabitants so they could get some cheap land? What about Israeli settlers doing the same?
Those “poor proles” are dead, from centuries ago. Their descendants have not evicted anyone, they are just trying to survive amid the low wages, inflation, police state and opioid overdoses, just like nonwhite workers are. Race is a social construct used, first to justify colonialism and the profits it gave to the bourgeoisie, and in the modern era is used to divide the working class and pit them against each other. When white workers go on strike, what do you do as bourgeois? You hire nonwhite workers who are more desperate and resent their white peers due to them being racist.
But when white workers realize that racism only serves the bourgeois through the mentioned mechanism, they stop being racist. And when nonwhite workers see that white workers arent racist anymore and are fighting for them too, they will fight for them too and not work like scabs anymore. Thats the strategy CPUSA used in the 1930s and it worked. United the working class is strong, divided its weak. Racism only divides, racism only serves the bourgeoisie, it doesnt serve white workers.
According to Wikipedia, whites are 60% of US population. If you say whites are all bourgeois settlers and cant be proletarian or revolutionary, you are literally saying that there cannot be a revolution in USA unless you kill or deport whites until they become a minority, which is a ridiculous ultraleft message. All workers have same interest, whatever benefit white workers might have gotten in the past from colonialism and imperialism is only a short term concession to divide the working class and strenghten the bourgeoisie, just like social democracy and imperialism in Bretton Woods era Western Europe.
Long term, all workers have same interest, socialist revolution. The vanguard of the USAs job is to make workers see that, and unite, ditching away this ridiculous “race” idea. Like americans think “latino” is a race somehow, literally just another excuse to divide US working class and pit them against one another. Thats what the Trump people are all about, “illegal immigrants” are the problem. But instead of showing that thats bs and that all US workers have same interests, USA left says the problem are racist poor whites whose interest actually is being racist somehow and thus the solution is to cancel them. That is an unmarxist idea that wont work.
Israel is a similar example, only rolled back in time. Israeli workers do benefit from exploiting and genociding palestinians, but this is again just a short term concession by israeli bourgeoisie to divide the working class of Israel/Palestine. The Communist Party of Israels position has always been to unify palestinian and israelis against the israeli genocidal regime, not to cancel all israeli workers as “bourgeois settlers”. Israeli and palestinian workers all have the same interests long term.
With this in mind, the socialist patriotist position in USA would be to love all US workers and want socialism and equality for all workers, since that is their interest. Same in Israel/Palestine, one would want a united palestinian israeli state, where both languages and cultures are respected and all workers are equal, since that is their interest. It would also be important to pay reparations to victims of colonialism, to decolonize. But the mistake of people here is that such things should be paid by “settler workers”, meaning white and israeli workers. That is a ridiculous position. It was the US and israeli bourgeoisie that benefitted the most from such colonialism, so it is them that should pay it, not the workers.
Most indigenous eviction happened less than 200 years ago. And those people are still fighting the US government for return of land.
they are just trying to survive amid the low wages
So were poor proles from europe, that is not an excuse to genocide a people and steal their land.
When white workers go on strike, what do you do as bourgeois?
You hire them as overseers of slave plantations, or into the management layers, in a position above black, indigenous and latino workers. This strategy worked and is the cornerstone of US history. Social bribery and absorption of white workers into an oppressing labor aristocracy is thesis of both Sakai and Zinn, both of whom wrote the most popular left books on US history.
Long term, all workers have same interest, socialist revolution.
Also false, production has long been exported to low-wage countries, forming a global division of labor where imperial core “workers” are mostly in the service and transportation sectors, while global south proletarians are the ones actually engaged in productive labor, creating consumer products. That difference in the huge amounts of surplus value extracted from global south workers is the reason goods and so cheap in the US. US workers are entirely dependent on this arrangement, and imperialism is 100% in their interests.
Things are not as simple as “wage work = proletarian”. US workers are more akin to the house slaves on a plantation, not producing exchange values, but only use values, living off the surplus value created by a much larger population of field slaves. The goal of the house slaves is to preserve the system, and their priviledged position; the goal of the field slaves is to burn down the plantation.
Israeli and palestinian workers all have the same interests long term.
Entirely false: Israeli “workers” ( we should really say civilians to be more precise ), want to keep the land their government stole from Palestine. Palestinians want the return of that land. This is a zero sum game, and those lands should be returned to their rightful owners; Israeli’s have no right to that land.
Your response is essentially the finders keepers rule of land theft, where the existing survivors are told “tough shit”, when demanding that their land be returned to them. Interestingly I had to go through Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s crap recently, and in one of her rulings she 100% agrees with you: too much time has passed for land to be returned to its rightful owners, and the white settlers get to keep it.
LMFAO you just said that its false that “all workers have the same interests long term, socialism”. Do you realize the implications of that? By saying that, you are saying that capitalism and imperialism is a sustainable system that will last forever, thus forever bringing benefits to the labor aristocracy ie white workers. This is “the end of history”, completely antimarxist and antidialectic, the world is not static, its constantly changing. If US white workers will always benefit from imperialism, why have living standards consistently gone down for them since Richard Nixon? It is simply impossible to keep bringing surplus value to the labor aristocracy forever, the laws of capitalism, the falling rate of profit, make it impossible. Sooner or later the bourgeoisie will start exploiting the labor aristocracy too, because just the value of the third world wont be enough to sustain capitalism due to the falling rate of profit. This is third worldism, this is maoist bs, this is not marxism wtf dude.
Israeli workers dont want to “keep the palestinian land” unless misguided by the israeli bourgeoisie through chauvinism, but its not in their interests. This is the problem with this “settler” bs, it often fails to define the class charachter of things, just an abstract notion of “land”. Workers only want land to live on, but colonialism isnt about that, Israel isnt evicting palestinians because they wanna live in their house for some reason. The proletariat wants land to live, the bourgeoisie wants to land to exploit. Colonialism wasnt driven by an irrational drive to “settle white people”, it was driven to extract profits from the colonized territories, both in the form of natural resources and in the form of slave labor.
Thus, for the bourgeoisie, land is capital, not just a place to live in. However, as i assume you know, by definition, workers do not own any capital, thats why they are exploited, at most they own the small house they live in (if even), but not any capital, nothing that produces wealth besides their own labor. Thus, it is the israeli bourgeoisie, by definition, that owns the palestinian land, not the israeli workers! Sure they may benefit from that now, but that is a temporary concession to divide the working class, and will not last forever due to falling rate of profit and the limits of capitalism and imperialism.
Thus, decolonization involves abolishing private property, taking the means of production (an actual marxist term, much better than this abstract classless notion of “land”) from the colonizer bourgeoisie, and redistributing them to the workers, both colonized and “settler”, while taking into account the damages caused by colonialism on the colonized, which the colonizer bourgeoisie will repay, not the workers. It doesnt involve killing or deporting all “settler” workers. I mean seriously, even the bourgeoisie can be proletarianized, such as with petty-middle bourgeoisie during heavy economic crises, but somehow the labor aristocracy cant? Ridiculous! This is not marxism nor dialectics!
I assume you are ML who want to establish dictatorship of the proletariat, and not an anarchist playground for imperialists? Then this is patriotism. Proletarian patriotism.
You still have not answered, is Joe Sims and the entire CPUSA reactionary? Is the Communist Party of Spain reactionary? Is the Communist Party of Greece reactionary? Is the Russian Communist Party reactionary? Because they all uphold socialist patriotism, and always have. Please answer.
Well the CPUSA has a really bad reputation amongst most ML. Also, I don’t really care how they feel about Patsocs. I can form my own opinion. Every interaction I’ve had with a patsoc has been negative.
As an American, patriotism here isn’t associated with anything I agree with.
No, it’s reactionary, but I don’t understand a patsoc to understand.
CPUSA also wanted you to vote for Biden, so they aren’t much better. The KKE is mega reactionary too. I am not saying you can’t help correct the party lines in your country, but as it stands, all of these parties are reactionary and don’t follow a Marxist-Leninist line.
You arent patriotic towards a state, you are patriotic towards a nation, towards the people. You think Mao only became patriotic for China when the PRC was founded? Please tell me, is Joe Sims a reactionary because he upholds proletarian patriotism?
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Also, I’m pretty sure he never simped for the Qing dynasty.
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Based take
Thats the point of patriotism, loving your people, fighting for their rights. Its not about “being proud and complacent of how great everything is”, thats propaganda spoonfed to you yankees since primary school.
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Who mentioned nationalism? Im talking about patriotism, a very different thing. You dont even know the difference man.
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I dont understand sir. Who is talking about gay people? I swear i really dont understand.
Settler states even, like Israel or the US? Those built by having a settler garrison of poor proles wiping out and clearing the land of indigenous peoples? What’s there to be proud of about that?
Proletarian patriotism is love towards the people, towards the nation (or several nations in complex examples like USA). Its not love towards the bourgeois state, thats bourgeois patriotism.
Do you love the poor proles from europe who came to the US to evict the indigenous inhabitants so they could get some cheap land? What about Israeli settlers doing the same?
Those “poor proles” are dead, from centuries ago. Their descendants have not evicted anyone, they are just trying to survive amid the low wages, inflation, police state and opioid overdoses, just like nonwhite workers are. Race is a social construct used, first to justify colonialism and the profits it gave to the bourgeoisie, and in the modern era is used to divide the working class and pit them against each other. When white workers go on strike, what do you do as bourgeois? You hire nonwhite workers who are more desperate and resent their white peers due to them being racist.
But when white workers realize that racism only serves the bourgeois through the mentioned mechanism, they stop being racist. And when nonwhite workers see that white workers arent racist anymore and are fighting for them too, they will fight for them too and not work like scabs anymore. Thats the strategy CPUSA used in the 1930s and it worked. United the working class is strong, divided its weak. Racism only divides, racism only serves the bourgeoisie, it doesnt serve white workers.
According to Wikipedia, whites are 60% of US population. If you say whites are all bourgeois settlers and cant be proletarian or revolutionary, you are literally saying that there cannot be a revolution in USA unless you kill or deport whites until they become a minority, which is a ridiculous ultraleft message. All workers have same interest, whatever benefit white workers might have gotten in the past from colonialism and imperialism is only a short term concession to divide the working class and strenghten the bourgeoisie, just like social democracy and imperialism in Bretton Woods era Western Europe.
Long term, all workers have same interest, socialist revolution. The vanguard of the USAs job is to make workers see that, and unite, ditching away this ridiculous “race” idea. Like americans think “latino” is a race somehow, literally just another excuse to divide US working class and pit them against one another. Thats what the Trump people are all about, “illegal immigrants” are the problem. But instead of showing that thats bs and that all US workers have same interests, USA left says the problem are racist poor whites whose interest actually is being racist somehow and thus the solution is to cancel them. That is an unmarxist idea that wont work.
Israel is a similar example, only rolled back in time. Israeli workers do benefit from exploiting and genociding palestinians, but this is again just a short term concession by israeli bourgeoisie to divide the working class of Israel/Palestine. The Communist Party of Israels position has always been to unify palestinian and israelis against the israeli genocidal regime, not to cancel all israeli workers as “bourgeois settlers”. Israeli and palestinian workers all have the same interests long term.
With this in mind, the socialist patriotist position in USA would be to love all US workers and want socialism and equality for all workers, since that is their interest. Same in Israel/Palestine, one would want a united palestinian israeli state, where both languages and cultures are respected and all workers are equal, since that is their interest. It would also be important to pay reparations to victims of colonialism, to decolonize. But the mistake of people here is that such things should be paid by “settler workers”, meaning white and israeli workers. That is a ridiculous position. It was the US and israeli bourgeoisie that benefitted the most from such colonialism, so it is them that should pay it, not the workers.
Most indigenous eviction happened less than 200 years ago. And those people are still fighting the US government for return of land.
So were poor proles from europe, that is not an excuse to genocide a people and steal their land.
You hire them as overseers of slave plantations, or into the management layers, in a position above black, indigenous and latino workers. This strategy worked and is the cornerstone of US history. Social bribery and absorption of white workers into an oppressing labor aristocracy is thesis of both Sakai and Zinn, both of whom wrote the most popular left books on US history.
Also false, production has long been exported to low-wage countries, forming a global division of labor where imperial core “workers” are mostly in the service and transportation sectors, while global south proletarians are the ones actually engaged in productive labor, creating consumer products. That difference in the huge amounts of surplus value extracted from global south workers is the reason goods and so cheap in the US. US workers are entirely dependent on this arrangement, and imperialism is 100% in their interests.
Things are not as simple as “wage work = proletarian”. US workers are more akin to the house slaves on a plantation, not producing exchange values, but only use values, living off the surplus value created by a much larger population of field slaves. The goal of the house slaves is to preserve the system, and their priviledged position; the goal of the field slaves is to burn down the plantation.
Entirely false: Israeli “workers” ( we should really say civilians to be more precise ), want to keep the land their government stole from Palestine. Palestinians want the return of that land. This is a zero sum game, and those lands should be returned to their rightful owners; Israeli’s have no right to that land.
Your response is essentially the finders keepers rule of land theft, where the existing survivors are told “tough shit”, when demanding that their land be returned to them. Interestingly I had to go through Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s crap recently, and in one of her rulings she 100% agrees with you: too much time has passed for land to be returned to its rightful owners, and the white settlers get to keep it.
LMFAO you just said that its false that “all workers have the same interests long term, socialism”. Do you realize the implications of that? By saying that, you are saying that capitalism and imperialism is a sustainable system that will last forever, thus forever bringing benefits to the labor aristocracy ie white workers. This is “the end of history”, completely antimarxist and antidialectic, the world is not static, its constantly changing. If US white workers will always benefit from imperialism, why have living standards consistently gone down for them since Richard Nixon? It is simply impossible to keep bringing surplus value to the labor aristocracy forever, the laws of capitalism, the falling rate of profit, make it impossible. Sooner or later the bourgeoisie will start exploiting the labor aristocracy too, because just the value of the third world wont be enough to sustain capitalism due to the falling rate of profit. This is third worldism, this is maoist bs, this is not marxism wtf dude.
Israeli workers dont want to “keep the palestinian land” unless misguided by the israeli bourgeoisie through chauvinism, but its not in their interests. This is the problem with this “settler” bs, it often fails to define the class charachter of things, just an abstract notion of “land”. Workers only want land to live on, but colonialism isnt about that, Israel isnt evicting palestinians because they wanna live in their house for some reason. The proletariat wants land to live, the bourgeoisie wants to land to exploit. Colonialism wasnt driven by an irrational drive to “settle white people”, it was driven to extract profits from the colonized territories, both in the form of natural resources and in the form of slave labor.
Thus, for the bourgeoisie, land is capital, not just a place to live in. However, as i assume you know, by definition, workers do not own any capital, thats why they are exploited, at most they own the small house they live in (if even), but not any capital, nothing that produces wealth besides their own labor. Thus, it is the israeli bourgeoisie, by definition, that owns the palestinian land, not the israeli workers! Sure they may benefit from that now, but that is a temporary concession to divide the working class, and will not last forever due to falling rate of profit and the limits of capitalism and imperialism.
Thus, decolonization involves abolishing private property, taking the means of production (an actual marxist term, much better than this abstract classless notion of “land”) from the colonizer bourgeoisie, and redistributing them to the workers, both colonized and “settler”, while taking into account the damages caused by colonialism on the colonized, which the colonizer bourgeoisie will repay, not the workers. It doesnt involve killing or deporting all “settler” workers. I mean seriously, even the bourgeoisie can be proletarianized, such as with petty-middle bourgeoisie during heavy economic crises, but somehow the labor aristocracy cant? Ridiculous! This is not marxism nor dialectics!
shrugs
My fascist family hates the bourgeoisie state too.
Can’t I believe in working class solidarity without espousing patriotism?
I assume you are ML who want to establish dictatorship of the proletariat, and not an anarchist playground for imperialists? Then this is patriotism. Proletarian patriotism.
You still have not answered, is Joe Sims and the entire CPUSA reactionary? Is the Communist Party of Spain reactionary? Is the Communist Party of Greece reactionary? Is the Russian Communist Party reactionary? Because they all uphold socialist patriotism, and always have. Please answer.
Well the CPUSA has a really bad reputation amongst most ML. Also, I don’t really care how they feel about Patsocs. I can form my own opinion. Every interaction I’ve had with a patsoc has been negative.
As an American, patriotism here isn’t associated with anything I agree with.
Lol are you joking?
No, it’s reactionary, but I don’t understand a patsoc to understand. CPUSA also wanted you to vote for Biden, so they aren’t much better. The KKE is mega reactionary too. I am not saying you can’t help correct the party lines in your country, but as it stands, all of these parties are reactionary and don’t follow a Marxist-Leninist line.
Ahh i see, everyone is reactionary except you the enlightened. When will you lead the revolution Chairman?
I think the KKE is starting to change in that regard, but I would have to double check to be sure.