The “patriotism” of “PatSocs” is vastly different. PatSocs are a very specific reactionary group with specific views here in the west.
But thy the fuck everything the anti-“patsocs” did up to date was to make the word “patriotism” haram in almost every communist space despite knowing what you said in the first paragraph yourself?
At best it’s american exceptionalism in the wild ride, and at worst an op to sow mistrust between american communists and all others. And Lemmy is still infinite better than reddit where even Genzedong banned people for even attemping to discuss it.
Idk about those “specific reactionary group” “patsoc” guys, but if they are socialchauvinists, call them what they are. Will you start to call nazis “socialists” too, because it’s in the name?
The particular group of internet dweebs being critiqued call themselves patriotic socialists or socialist patriots. That’s just kinda how language works. You can’t change it any more than you can stop libs from calling MLs tankies.
So i was right at first and it’s just an youtube circlejerk… No wonder nobody could answer me when i asked for something concrete, where are the names or the organizations. And to think i was banned for that from GenZedong (at that point it was not much loss but still).
Wait. Wait wait wait wait. Does this mean the most of internet spaces for english speaking ML’s abandon one of the most successful weapons in the arsenal of proletariat, weapon which has been used with great effect since Lenin first formulated the theory of socialism in one country, because of a fucking kneejerk reaction to an YOUTUBE CIRCLEJERK?!?
I mean the problem is a bit bigger than that, as these things always find a way to leak into real life once money gets involved. Their “movement” magnetically attracts reactionary (often white) guys who think converting MAGA chuds by acting like conservatives counts as “organizing” (they’re trying to get something going irl but who knows where it will go), and is more important than reigning in syndicalists and trade unionists to a communist party platform that won’t immediately split on gender/race/religion/sexuality lines (which itself is difficult, but that is how activism in the US tends to manifest). They also really hate queer people and complain about us constantly, which honestly just feels like punching down.
So at this point in time, patsoc is linguistically equivalent to “reactionary white ML” to most socialists. Within the sphere of regular ML communities and organizing, the reaction to this reaction are attempts to learn from theories ultimately based in Gramsci’s work on Hegemony — such that we don’t repeat the mistakes of past movements by ignoring the needs of sections of the proletariat some might consider ‘inconvenient’. Arguments about patsocs seem to bring this topic to the forefront of discussion (so I think it might have a positive effect in the end). We really don’t want to alienate comrades of any walk of life, but patsocs don’t really care who they alienate as long as you’re using the correct “anti-imperialist” language that somehow includes American patriotism, and your strategy centers the needs of middle class white traditionalists. They talk a good game about internationalism but I’ve seen people with less staunchly purist views making more attempts at communicating with global socialist movements.
Massive bruh moment, this post section is giving me crazy, you and saddam hussain are the only people here seeing how dumb it is to create such an massive fight over fucking twitter/youtube drama/circlejerking.
Yes it does. Were they socialist? No. That’s why we aren’t calling them that. “Patsoc” used for a socialchauvinist is a wretched word, entirely giving away very important concept and castrating yourself.
It’s fine if american communist don’t want to use that word, even if a little misguided, as Lenin explained, but don’t push that as general rule, it’s american exceptionalism and it’s defeatism.
Again, “national socialism” is excellent example in yet another way. Just look at the history of the world after WW2. how many systems that could be easily name “national socialism” were there, but we can’t name them like this, because this term is forever lost, even despite it means something completely unrelated to socialism. Don’t lose more ground, class war is going here too.
But thy the fuck everything the anti-“patsocs” did up to date was to make the word “patriotism” haram in almost every communist space despite knowing what you said in the first paragraph yourself?
At best it’s american exceptionalism in the wild ride, and at worst an op to sow mistrust between american communists and all others. And Lemmy is still infinite better than reddit where even Genzedong banned people for even attemping to discuss it.
Idk about those “specific reactionary group” “patsoc” guys, but if they are socialchauvinists, call them what they are. Will you start to call nazis “socialists” too, because it’s in the name?
The particular group of internet dweebs being critiqued call themselves patriotic socialists or socialist patriots. That’s just kinda how language works. You can’t change it any more than you can stop libs from calling MLs tankies.
Plus there’s more than one kind of chauvinism.
So i was right at first and it’s just an youtube circlejerk… No wonder nobody could answer me when i asked for something concrete, where are the names or the organizations. And to think i was banned for that from GenZedong (at that point it was not much loss but still).
Wait. Wait wait wait wait. Does this mean the most of internet spaces for english speaking ML’s abandon one of the most successful weapons in the arsenal of proletariat, weapon which has been used with great effect since Lenin first formulated the theory of socialism in one country, because of a fucking kneejerk reaction to an YOUTUBE CIRCLEJERK?!?
I mean the problem is a bit bigger than that, as these things always find a way to leak into real life once money gets involved. Their “movement” magnetically attracts reactionary (often white) guys who think converting MAGA chuds by acting like conservatives counts as “organizing” (they’re trying to get something going irl but who knows where it will go), and is more important than reigning in syndicalists and trade unionists to a communist party platform that won’t immediately split on gender/race/religion/sexuality lines (which itself is difficult, but that is how activism in the US tends to manifest). They also really hate queer people and complain about us constantly, which honestly just feels like punching down.
So at this point in time, patsoc is linguistically equivalent to “reactionary white ML” to most socialists. Within the sphere of regular ML communities and organizing, the reaction to this reaction are attempts to learn from theories ultimately based in Gramsci’s work on Hegemony — such that we don’t repeat the mistakes of past movements by ignoring the needs of sections of the proletariat some might consider ‘inconvenient’. Arguments about patsocs seem to bring this topic to the forefront of discussion (so I think it might have a positive effect in the end). We really don’t want to alienate comrades of any walk of life, but patsocs don’t really care who they alienate as long as you’re using the correct “anti-imperialist” language that somehow includes American patriotism, and your strategy centers the needs of middle class white traditionalists. They talk a good game about internationalism but I’ve seen people with less staunchly purist views making more attempts at communicating with global socialist movements.
Massive bruh moment, this post section is giving me crazy, you and saddam hussain are the only people here seeing how dumb it is to create such an massive fight over fucking twitter/youtube drama/circlejerking.
You are absolutely correct
Comrade Poland always coming to rescue me! O7
Doesn’t the word Nazi come from their name Nationalsozialist?
Yes it does. Were they socialist? No. That’s why we aren’t calling them that. “Patsoc” used for a socialchauvinist is a wretched word, entirely giving away very important concept and castrating yourself.
It’s fine if american communist don’t want to use that word, even if a little misguided, as Lenin explained, but don’t push that as general rule, it’s american exceptionalism and it’s defeatism.
Again, “national socialism” is excellent example in yet another way. Just look at the history of the world after WW2. how many systems that could be easily name “national socialism” were there, but we can’t name them like this, because this term is forever lost, even despite it means something completely unrelated to socialism. Don’t lose more ground, class war is going here too.
I’m just being pedantic, I think you have a good point with “social chauvinist”.