WARSAW, Poland — Eastern European countries are raising alarm over Ukraine potentially being pushed into peace talks with Russia, amid growing partisanship in Washington, hesitation and delays in w…
The best way to defend your home is to stop the bombs from falling on it. Unless you’re not talking about people’s homes, families, and friends, but rather talking about some arbitrary line in the sand that people should be sent to die for.
Then why oh why aren’t you applying your reasoning to Russia? They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
If it’s all just pointless bloodshed over lines on a map, why isn’t Russia staying home? All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back.
They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I’ll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it’s barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.
Lolyou think this is “indiscriminate”? Fuck, you should’ve zeen Fallujah or Vietnam or Korea. Ukraine has so much infrastructure and housing left in perfectly usable conditions. One of my major issues at the beginning was that I expected Russia to be much more violent and have been very surprised at how little of the violence has been on non-combatants
From what you wrote, do you have a major issue with, in your view, how little violence Russia has inflicted on civilians? Glad that you’re disappointed.
My point stands. All that blabber does not justify the acts of Russia.
Lol fuck you
No I’m pleasantly surprised at how little violence against civilians has happened in Ukraine. They never for a moment did the all out war that the US has waged on so many countries. None of that justifies the acts of Russia, but it does mean that your view is so terribly skewed by your western propaganda that I can’t imagine you being right about anything else lol
But also, you can look into my comment history if you want, for some good explanations on my position on Putin and Russia in this war. I have principles and material analyses. You have vibes
No one is justifying the acts of Russia. They should not have invaded! But to act like there is no pretext to conflict and Ukraine is completely innocent is disingenuous. Peace is the better option.
Would you like to live in putin’s russia until you die? Because that is what happened to the people in the occupied regions, wheter they like it or not.
(And please don’t mention the referendum. Between killed, coerced, exiles and fraud it’s a pornographic notion to think you can have a referendum in those conditions.)
The Ukrainian choice here is not peace vs war, that’s russia’s choice.
Ukrainians’ choice here is whether to accept to live in putin’s russia by force or to resist his troops’ advances by force and a lot of people in your instance believe that it is up to Ukraine to solve the problem that russia created by accepting putin’s laws (which I guess nobody in your instance would accept, since you are anti-homophobia etc etc)
Russia can cry about their red line all they want, but it wasn’t in the treaty. The Revolutions of 1989 made it clear Eastern Europeans weren’t interested in Russian control, the Balkans were unstable, and the Chechen & Georgian wars stoked fear in the former Soviet states. All NATO had to do was open their doors, and again, nothing in the treaty forbade it.
Well, no. No I’m not. I was just lazily pointing out that “Russia threw a series of temper tantrums so we should appease them” isn’t a good argument either. My argument at least has the weight of a legally binding treaty behind it. As far as Ukraine goes, both powers were meddling there; Russia lost the game. That doesn’t give them the right to invade, that was a choice that Putin made. He could have just as easily accepted that he’s a loser, and tens of thousands OF HIS OWN PEOPLE would still be alive, not to mention Ukrainians.
Not that Russia isn’t taking casualties, but why do Ukraine supporters act like they’re not the ones feeding their people into the meat grinder? Russia is dug in. You’re sending children and old men into a turkey shoot.
Russia being the aggressor State that didn’t respect its prior engagements (Budapest memorandum), letting them keep the territory they unlawfully took from Ukraine is a ridiculous suggestion, would open the door to the same thing happening again at a later date and would require way more negotiations than just respecting the borders as agreed upon in the 90s.
Since you are talking about unhonored agreements, you should know that if Ukraine followed the minsk agreement, there would not be any war right now. And no, I am not suggesting anything. I am just pointing out how the previous argument was fucking stupid. But since you are asking for a suggestion, I suggest Ukraine and Russia meet for peace talks mediated by a neutral country, and let both countries talk about their grievances and find a compromise. This is a historically proven method of solving conflicts. And since Ukraine is such a sovereign country, they should decide for themselves what to do, instead of letting the UK arbitrarily revert actions on a whim.
So your argument against mine is that Ukraine didn’t respect an agreement that wouldn’t have been necessary if Russia had respected an agreement signed 20 years prior? Really?
Russian spokesman: Recognizing the Donbas republics would not be compatible with Minsk agreement.
Putin: I recognize the Donbas republics and the agreement no longer exists.
You: Ukraine is at fault.
The propaganda worked well with you I see 👍
Off to the block list with all the tankies you go!
I mean sure but what’s the point in peace talks if all it would do is just give Russia more time to prep to try the same shit they’ve been doing for decades now.
They are, but while wicked problems (what Bostonians call “math”) are very difficult to resolve to the satisfaction of everyone, some approaches are far worse than others.
Ukraine’s approach – failing to control the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in their midst, then allowing those paramilitaries to violate the Minsk agreements while running away from your largest neighbor and in to the arms of the U.S. empire, then skipping offramps in the lead up to the war and in its first months – was a particularly bad one.
OSCE had a mission through the entire period 2014-2022 as observers and released daily reports of the region together with ceasefire violations so we can find it for pretty much any day online like this one from 2022-02-03, and you can look up others here.
I can’t find it anymore but there was a video floating around of Zelensky inspecting the troops and telling them to stop attacking the DNR and the soldiers telling him straight up no. Although I can’t find that video you can look at the election results from 2019, Zelensky ran on a platform of brokering a peace calming tensions with ethnic russians and general prosperity which is why Poroshenko accused Zelenski of selling out to Russia. A ton of people in eastern ukraine wanted things to calm down and that’s why he got the most votes there, but the military and the neo-nazi paramilitaries kept on doing their thing and here we are.
For me this sounds not too (in relative terms) bad, on Zelensky’s part. I live in the EU and many (possibly all) of our member states are rather bad at handling Neo-nazis (This is actually one of our most pressing issues, but broadly ignored by the public).
The country’s ultranationalist groups came to the fore in 2014, when they kickstarted massive street protests that led to the ousting of the Russia-friendly president Viktor Yanukovych…
Torch-bearing ultra-right activists regularly march to the beat of drums across the Ukrainian capital’s downtown, chanting, “Death to traitors of Ukraine!” During one scuffle at the memorial to a Red Army general killed in the second world war, an elderly woman approached a group of radical nationalists shouting, “Hang the Russians!” and defied them, saying: “I’m Russian, hang me!”…
In a series of violent actions that underline their strength, rightwing radicals in recent years have assaulted gatherings by LGBT and women’s rights activists, attacked Roma encampments around the country, derailed a lecture on the history of the Holocaust and brawled with pro-Russia veterans…
Yermolayev said in the past the government turned a blind eye to the rise of nationalist groups, using them as a scare tactic, but now the ultra-right has turned on the authorities. “The well-organised and aggressive nationalism in Ukraine is a child of the government. It has lost control over radical nationalists. [Petro] Poroshenko has lost that game.”…
International human rights groups have strongly criticised the Ukrainian government for failing to track down and punish those responsible for the acts of violence and intimidation. The government has promised to rein in the ultranationalists, but has taken no action…
That’s a pretty good overview of the character of Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, as well as some on the scale of the problem. It mentions they sent “volunteer battalions” to the separatist regions, but does not have tons of detail on what they were doing there. This one has more detail on that:
“I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia,” said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. “But Putin’s not even a Russian. Putin’s a Jew.”
Dmitry – which he said is not his real name – is a native of east Ukraine and a member of the Azov battalion, a volunteer grouping that has been doing much of the frontline fighting in Ukraine’s war with pro-Russia separatists. The Azov, one of many volunteer brigades to fight alongside the Ukrainian army in the east of the country, has developed a reputation for fearlessness in battle…
In this next section, note how the neo-Nazis are declaring they’ll do whatever they want, and see themselves as held back by the actual military:
For the commanders and the generals in Kiev, who many in Azov and other volunteer battalions see as responsible for the awful losses the Ukrainian army has suffered in recent weeks, especially in the ill-fated retreat from Ilovaysk, there was only contempt. “Generals like those in charge of Ilovaysk should be imprisoned for treason,” said Skillt. “Heads are going to roll for sure, I think there will be a battle for power.”
The Ukrainian armed forces are “an army of lions led by a sheep”, said Dmitry, and there is only so long that dynamic can continue. With so many armed, battle-hardened and angry young men coming back from the front, there is a danger that the rolling of heads could be more than a metaphor.
And of course:
This week, Amnesty International called on the Ukrainian government to investigate rights abuses and possible executions by the Aidar, another battalion.
"The failure to stop abuses and possible war crimes by volunteer battalions risks significantly aggravating tensions in the east of the country and undermining the proclaimed intentions of the new Ukrainian authorities to strengthen and uphold the rule of law more broadly," said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International secretary general, in Kiev.
Sorry I only looked at the pictures and did not read the text jet. I will read it on some commute tomorrow. But the pictures are frightening as the recent global rise of fascism is. I’m worried of the times to come.
This is the point that’s always lost on libs. They’re full on blood and soil over soil and blood that isn’t theirs. They can’t imagine negotiationg peace so then people can stop dying.
“They’ll die because Putin=hitler. I am the great history understander of our time. Just don’t ask me about anything that happened between 2013 and 2022.”
It would have to be a really shitty surrender treaty to have the clause “Ukraine will surrender all land to Russia and will also die anyways.” Like you realize this is useless and dumb hyperbole right?
You just have to read about the Great Soviet Famine to know how Russia regards the Ukrainian people. Well, all the people who are not the Tzar really. Putin has already started the latest genocide via war and stealing children.
Do you think Russia went to Ukraine and they sat down in a nice comfy living room with a fireplace and discussed one country handing everything they have over to the other?
Because context is a thing. Or do you think Russia would currently accept any peace deal that includes leaving Ukraine? Of course there will have to be a peace deal at the end, but currently there are no peace deals that would be acceptable to either party.
When there is talk about “peace deals”, such deals are implied to somewhat reflect the status quo border wise, which at the moment would mean that Ukraine surrenders. It’s Russia currently occupying Ukraine and trying to legitimise it, not the other way around. No shit a peace deal would be favourable to them.
Defending your home is good.
The best way to defend your home is to stop the bombs from falling on it. Unless you’re not talking about people’s homes, families, and friends, but rather talking about some arbitrary line in the sand that people should be sent to die for.
Then why oh why aren’t you applying your reasoning to Russia? They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
If it’s all just pointless bloodshed over lines on a map, why isn’t Russia staying home? All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back.
Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I’ll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it’s barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.
I wonder what part of this is supposed to justify Russia’s indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations
Lolyou think this is “indiscriminate”? Fuck, you should’ve zeen Fallujah or Vietnam or Korea. Ukraine has so much infrastructure and housing left in perfectly usable conditions. One of my major issues at the beginning was that I expected Russia to be much more violent and have been very surprised at how little of the violence has been on non-combatants
Russia has definitely not engaged in total war.
From what you wrote, do you have a major issue with, in your view, how little violence Russia has inflicted on civilians? Glad that you’re disappointed.
My point stands. All that blabber does not justify the acts of Russia.
Lol fuck you No I’m pleasantly surprised at how little violence against civilians has happened in Ukraine. They never for a moment did the all out war that the US has waged on so many countries. None of that justifies the acts of Russia, but it does mean that your view is so terribly skewed by your western propaganda that I can’t imagine you being right about anything else lol
But also, you can look into my comment history if you want, for some good explanations on my position on Putin and Russia in this war. I have principles and material analyses. You have vibes
https://hexbear.net/comment/3746587 An example of a very simple version of why I critically support russia
You support Russia because… of reddit?
LMAO 🤣
No one is justifying the acts of Russia. They should not have invaded! But to act like there is no pretext to conflict and Ukraine is completely innocent is disingenuous. Peace is the better option.
All it takes for peace to happen is Russian soldiers turning around and going home.
Also plenty of your fellow hexbear users are justifying the acts of Russia in the comments up above (and down below).
I agree with you that peace is a better option, although I’m pessimistic about the outcome of such talks at this point.
Would you like to live in putin’s russia until you die? Because that is what happened to the people in the occupied regions, wheter they like it or not.
(And please don’t mention the referendum. Between killed, coerced, exiles and fraud it’s a pornographic notion to think you can have a referendum in those conditions.)
The Ukrainian choice here is not peace vs war, that’s russia’s choice.
Ukrainians’ choice here is whether to accept to live in putin’s russia by force or to resist his troops’ advances by force and a lot of people in your instance believe that it is up to Ukraine to solve the problem that russia created by accepting putin’s laws (which I guess nobody in your instance would accept, since you are anti-homophobia etc etc)
I wonder that too
Russia can cry about their red line all they want, but it wasn’t in the treaty. The Revolutions of 1989 made it clear Eastern Europeans weren’t interested in Russian control, the Balkans were unstable, and the Chechen & Georgian wars stoked fear in the former Soviet states. All NATO had to do was open their doors, and again, nothing in the treaty forbade it.
“I’m not legally prohibited from doing this” is rarely a good argument
I’m not sure there are any good arguments in geopolitics.
now you’re just backpedaling
Well, no. No I’m not. I was just lazily pointing out that “Russia threw a series of temper tantrums so we should appease them” isn’t a good argument either. My argument at least has the weight of a legally binding treaty behind it. As far as Ukraine goes, both powers were meddling there; Russia lost the game. That doesn’t give them the right to invade, that was a choice that Putin made. He could have just as easily accepted that he’s a loser, and tens of thousands OF HIS OWN PEOPLE would still be alive, not to mention Ukrainians.
1989 Revolutions? Wholesale dismemberment of the USSR more like. And treaty didn’t say it. The Russians sure as fuck did.
Are you suggesting that Russian aggression is justified because they demanded something of a sovereign nation which was refused?
Not that Russia isn’t taking casualties, but why do Ukraine supporters act like they’re not the ones feeding their people into the meat grinder? Russia is dug in. You’re sending children and old men into a turkey shoot.
Yeah, that’s definitely what’s going on here
We’re talking about the fastest ways to stop bloodshed, not Russia. Do you think that ending the war is bad?
Well fastest way is for Russia to say “We’re done, here’s your territory back.”
Would be equally fast if ukraine said “We’re done, keep the territory”
Edit: objectively true statement downvoted for being inconvenient to the reader
Russia being the aggressor State that didn’t respect its prior engagements (Budapest memorandum), letting them keep the territory they unlawfully took from Ukraine is a ridiculous suggestion, would open the door to the same thing happening again at a later date and would require way more negotiations than just respecting the borders as agreed upon in the 90s.
Since you are talking about unhonored agreements, you should know that if Ukraine followed the minsk agreement, there would not be any war right now. And no, I am not suggesting anything. I am just pointing out how the previous argument was fucking stupid. But since you are asking for a suggestion, I suggest Ukraine and Russia meet for peace talks mediated by a neutral country, and let both countries talk about their grievances and find a compromise. This is a historically proven method of solving conflicts. And since Ukraine is such a sovereign country, they should decide for themselves what to do, instead of letting the UK arbitrarily revert actions on a whim.
So your argument against mine is that Ukraine didn’t respect an agreement that wouldn’t have been necessary if Russia had respected an agreement signed 20 years prior? Really?
Russian spokesman: Recognizing the Donbas republics would not be compatible with Minsk agreement.
Putin: I recognize the Donbas republics and the agreement no longer exists.
You: Ukraine is at fault.
The propaganda worked well with you I see 👍
Off to the block list with all the tankies you go!
No, it wouldn’t. That would lead to more and worse violence as Russia continues it genocide.
I mean sure but what’s the point in peace talks if all it would do is just give Russia more time to prep to try the same shit they’ve been doing for decades now.
And that’s why you supported the breakaway republics?
Have you ever come by the term: wicked problem? Secession movements are a prime example of a wicked problem.
They are, but while wicked problems (what Bostonians call “math”) are very difficult to resolve to the satisfaction of everyone, some approaches are far worse than others.
Ukraine’s approach – failing to control the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in their midst, then allowing those paramilitaries to violate the Minsk agreements while running away from your largest neighbor and in to the arms of the U.S. empire, then skipping offramps in the lead up to the war and in its first months – was a particularly bad one.
can you hint me to some further reading?
On what, in particular?
This. The later parts I have read about.
OSCE had a mission through the entire period 2014-2022 as observers and released daily reports of the region together with ceasefire violations so we can find it for pretty much any day online like this one from 2022-02-03, and you can look up others here.
I can’t find it anymore but there was a video floating around of Zelensky inspecting the troops and telling them to stop attacking the DNR and the soldiers telling him straight up no. Although I can’t find that video you can look at the election results from 2019, Zelensky ran on a platform of brokering a peace calming tensions with ethnic russians and general prosperity which is why Poroshenko accused Zelenski of selling out to Russia. A ton of people in eastern ukraine wanted things to calm down and that’s why he got the most votes there, but the military and the neo-nazi paramilitaries kept on doing their thing and here we are.
For me this sounds not too (in relative terms) bad, on Zelensky’s part. I live in the EU and many (possibly all) of our member states are rather bad at handling Neo-nazis (This is actually one of our most pressing issues, but broadly ignored by the public).
Ahh. Here’s a good start:
That’s a pretty good overview of the character of Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, as well as some on the scale of the problem. It mentions they sent “volunteer battalions” to the separatist regions, but does not have tons of detail on what they were doing there. This one has more detail on that:
In this next section, note how the neo-Nazis are declaring they’ll do whatever they want, and see themselves as held back by the actual military:
And of course:
Sorry I only looked at the pictures and did not read the text jet. I will read it on some commute tomorrow. But the pictures are frightening as the recent global rise of fascism is. I’m worried of the times to come.
Just read about what Azov was doing from 2014 to the invasion
Not being dead is even better.
This is the point that’s always lost on libs. They’re full on blood and soil over soil and blood that isn’t theirs. They can’t imagine negotiationg peace so then people can stop dying.
So you just surrender and don’t have a home anymore/die anyways?
“die anyways” ? how so ?
I’m sorry I don’t have the time or willpower to explain history to you.
What a pretentious thing to say.
Lol ok
“They’ll die because Putin=hitler. I am the great history understander of our time. Just don’t ask me about anything that happened between 2013 and 2022.”
They’ll die in the next 100 years because putin has invented ageing.
Terminal levels of cringe
I would be so ashamed of actually posting this
Just don’t answer, it looks less ridiculous
Very intelligent.
Why are you posting hex emojis outside of hexbear? You know that’s against hexbear rules.
Grow up, kid.
I think half these people are illiterate and this is the only way they can communicate.
One of them blocked me, so I can’t even see the thread anymore. I’m just getting a flood of giant emojis in my inbox that leads to a blank topic.
The brigade of sealions is insufferable and interacting with them won’t help.
How would Ukrainians lose their homes/die if a successful peace deal was brokered?
What do you mean by “don’t have a home?”
It would have to be a really shitty surrender treaty to have the clause “Ukraine will surrender all land to Russia and will also die anyways.” Like you realize this is useless and dumb hyperbole right?
What do you honestly think is going to happen to Ukraine if theres a ceasefire? Without using cartoon logic
You just have to read about the Great Soviet Famine to know how Russia regards the Ukrainian people. Well, all the people who are not the Tzar really. Putin has already started the latest genocide via war and stealing children.
The famine that affected the whole USSR, of which Ukraine was a part? What does that have to do with Russia, let along the “Tzar”?
And then you get raped and killed. Like glorious Russia has always done throughout your history.
Ok Adolf
Everyone is Adolf: A Socially Awkward Morons Guide to Winning Debates.
More ableism from liberals?
No need to use an ableist slur to make your point. It adds nothing and makes it easy to dismiss.
Take it out and your otherwise correct.
There you go. I agree
Do you think Russia went to Ukraine and they sat down in a nice comfy living room with a fireplace and discussed one country handing everything they have over to the other?
No, I’m aware of the fact that there’s an actual war going on.
You don’t seem aware of it by your comments.
You don’t seem self aware by your comments.
You’re making no sense here at all.
Are you a bot?
That is somehow still more likely than Russia completely annexing Ukraine with less than half the East in their control
I’m sure you weren’t one of the people celebrating whenever someone would post a video of that happening to a Russian on Reddit.
Reddit reddit reddit. That’s all you children talk about. Why don’t you just give in and make an account? It’s all you talk about anyway.
You didnt deny it, which wouldve been easy. Something you dont wanna talk about?
Don’t feed the hexbears.
Why not? We’re gonna eat anyway, may as well make it fun
Spoooky hexbears ooooh
Literal fascist
Putin is indeed.
Why do you think peace talks equal surrender? How do you think literally all other wars came to an end?
Because context is a thing. Or do you think Russia would currently accept any peace deal that includes leaving Ukraine? Of course there will have to be a peace deal at the end, but currently there are no peace deals that would be acceptable to either party.
When there is talk about “peace deals”, such deals are implied to somewhat reflect the status quo border wise, which at the moment would mean that Ukraine surrenders. It’s Russia currently occupying Ukraine and trying to legitimise it, not the other way around. No shit a peace deal would be favourable to them.
Not for russians.
That’s why you love landlords