This posts is a list of all the suspicious things Matrix/New Vector and Element (which is run by Matrix employees) have done.

Crossposted to c/opensource from c/privacy.

I want to start a civil discussion on this topic, if anyone has improvement ideas for the list or wants to debate one of the bullet points for removal, I’m all ears.

Matrix

The Cloudflare Situation

All research on the Cloudflare situation is done by me.

If you check the SSL Certificate for https://element.io you’ll see it’s by Cloudflare.

Cloudflare has MANY privacy issues, and just wanting to centralize the web.

The Element client is the most used client, with many users using the default instance, because it’s easy or they want to simply join their friends or a community on Matrix easily. This comes as worrying because Cloudflare decrypts TLS traffic and this is even more worrying because Cloudflare is a honeypot.

Even if Cloudflare cannot decrypt anything because of the Matrix protocol encrypting them beforehand, lots of metadata in the message itself is send over plaintext like who you’re talking with, channel name etc. (and this is excluding the metadata leaks that Matrix has to the main homeserver and in general). Of course, this could be mitigated by using Element on another instance that isn’t behind Cloudflare, but the average user will not know to do that or even understand the concept of federation and decentralization.

Cloudflare’s CDN can be used without using their SSL certificate which just backdoors your site, so why is Element using it? Element is run by the same people that are behind matrix.org (mostly), so they know how to do basic privacy features.

Even if we assume there’s no ill intent here, Cloudflare just wants to centralize the web (~30% of SSL traffic goes through Cloudflare, ~80% of CDN traffic goes through Cloudflare), which is obviously against Matrix’s mission of decentralized communication.

Through Cloudflare, an adversary with ill intention could target a Matrix user and be susceptible to metadata collection.

The CIA & NSA admitted that they kill people by gathering and using metadata.

I’ve took this argument in the official Matrix channels, and no one has been able to properly respond to the arguments presented. Though, they were only members, no admins were involved.

If anyone wants to bring these issues forth to the official Matrix admins, I’d be more than glad to help. Thanks for reading!

  • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
    292·
    3 years ago

    You can “trust” it, because its self hostable, and buildable from source, unlike other not self hostable services. Its origins and funding are important, but less so because of those two attributes.

    The metadata leaking is a problem with every federated system, xmpp included. You could even call the metadata leaking a feature, not a bug, since its what makes federation possible.

    Whats important is that the metadata being leaked, isn’t linked to your identity, unlike with signal. Matrix doesn’t require phone numbers, or emails to sign up. You also can run an instance without turning on federation, if that’s still a concern.

    The cloudflare concerns aren’t an issue as long as you run your own instance, or join one that doesn’t use cloudflare. There’s nothing requiring cloudflare built into the software or the protocol.

    • Coconut Eclair@lemmy.mlOP
      8·
      3 years ago

      The cloudflare concerns aren’t an issue as long as you run your own instance, or join one that doesn’t use cloudflare. There’s nothing requiring cloudflare built into the software or the protocol.

      Yeah, but the vast majority of non-technical users don’t bother to change homeservers, or even clients, so it could affect them. What puzzles me is why the Matrix/Element team chose Cloudflare for app.element.io, (matrix.org uses LetsEncrypt), when CF aims to centralize the web and is a privacy nightmare. It’s more of an ethics thing, in my opinon. But sure, like I mentioned too, could be solved by switching homeservers/clients but the vast majority of users won’t bother.

      • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
        9·
        3 years ago

        I understand it even though I also hate cloudflare, as ddos attacks are extremely difficult to thwart otherwise. But of course it stands that nothing in the code of any of the homeservers, apps, or protocol requires cloudflare.

        Also you listed signal below as something you prefer, and they use cloudflare (and required phone numbers), and since its not self hostable, that’s mandatory.

  • aks@lemmy.ml
    12·
    3 years ago

    It would be foolish to trust any of these services blindly.

    However matrix is the better alternative to many, for now.

  • Hamster@lemmy.ml
    8·
    3 years ago

    I don’t like that the protocol is so intertwined with a commercial company.

  • CHEF-KOCH@lemmy.ml
    64·
    3 years ago

    I feel the same, Telegram and Matrix got hyped and whatnot but same like Signal they got millions of dollars and are light years behind the competition. Which makes me wonder what they do with the money and why they do not hire competent people, which I would do in such case to address all concerns and design flaws.

    Matrix encryption is flawed too, avatars, reactions etc. are NOT encrypted. Matrix might be an alternative until all flaws are fixed, but that might take years from now.

      • BridgeBum@lemmy.ml
        7·
        3 years ago

        and this requires devices to exchange the shared private key which is inherently risky.

        There is some risk, sure. I don’t see how this would be any more risky than a TLS exchange. Obviously the exchange can be implemented badly, but if done correctly it seems like it would work with certs and send the key encrypted.

        I think the bigger risk is the key sitting at rest on multiple devices, some of which are easily lost (cell phones) and could then compromise an account.

    • Coconut Eclair@lemmy.mlOP
      7·
      3 years ago

      Agreed, many people would like to use what they call “integrations” aka “bots” for those coming from Discord, which wouldn’t be unencrypted, and as you mentioned stickers. Signal/XMPP is my messenger of choice at the moment.

        • Coconut Eclair@lemmy.mlOP
          3·
          3 years ago

          This is a tricky question that can’t be answered on computers either even if you run Linux since the package manager can be compromised etc. In case of phones, best bet would be GrapheneOS with verified boot so there isn’t a chance it’d get infected.

    • sibachian@lemmy.ml
      81·
      3 years ago

      signal is centralized, requires your phone number, hosted in the US, has very limited interface and features, and run by a steve jobs type personality. thanks, but no thanks.

    • xarvos@lemmy.ml
      5·
      3 years ago

      Signal is more Odysee-like if anything, not federated and having crypto bs builtin.