There is a very big difference between RH and grsec here though, and I hate that people just brush over it. And that is that true, you might not be able build the exact compatible operating system with just names and logos exchanged easily anymore. But no part of their stack is closed source or only available to subscribers, is it? Who pays the pipewire dev and in which distribution did it appear in first? Who paid the systemd developer and is currently the main company behind it? What about NetworkManager? GNOME?
There is a very big difference between RH and grsec here though, and I hate that people just brush over it.
I only know second-hand details. I’ve skimmed the webpage. If you know more, please let me know!
But no part of their stack is closed source or only available to subscribers, is it?
I never said it was, and I would support Red Hat if they only made their free software offerings available to paying customers. I think this is how a free software company should work. Most free software is not sustainable today, and it would be nice if Red Hat could be a good example of how to build a successful free software company.
Even if Red Hat terminates the contracts of customers who share the sources, this wouldn’t be against the GPL, but I think it would be nasty to scare your customers into not exercising their granted freedoms under the GPL. This is the only point of contention I have. After spending about an hour digging through the Red Hat site for the terms of service which supposedly say this, I found some very vague terms. We’ll have to see how this shakes out in reality.
Who pays the pipewire dev and in which distribution did it appear in first? Who paid the systemd developer and is currently the main company behind it? What about NetworkManager? GNOME?
I’m well aware of how important Red Hat is to the free software ecosystem :)
I’m unaware of any piece of software in RHEL that’s GPL that you can’t run in any other distro down to their specific version. It’s true that it’s hard to get the “complete and bug-for-bug-compatible operating system”, but all the components are there, be it in CentOS Stream or fedora, and a lot of stuff is theirs, not just added changes, but a big part of the codebase.
A grsecurity enabled kernel is “just” their patchset and any version is only available to their customers, no developer program or anything, there’s no open upstream they provide with their patches or anything.
If you have software that you want to work on RPM-based distributions, test against fedora, or CentOS Stream; or, if you have clients insisting on RHEL, use a developer account, the options are there. Or don’t and refer bug reports from RHEL users to their distribution’s support, they’re paying for it and it should be their first PoC anyways.
My post wasn’t only to go against yours, but against a general attitude; that Red Hat just takes upstream code, makes an enterprise distro out of it and then charges big bucks, terminating anyone’s contract who wishes to exercise their rights under GPL. The question is rather what’s the reason to actually redistribute recompiled code when most of it is available in their own funded upstream? People pretend Red Hat is squeezing a community that made them possible in the first place. But the truth is rather the reverse in my opinion. Without Red Hat, the community most likely wouldn’t exist. Their first release of Red Hat Linux was in 1994, when the kernel was about three years old and I guess by most people considered a toy rather than an alternative to UNIX. I’d wager that without them, the Linux ecosystem today would look much different, if more than a niche at all.
I don’t think the same can be said for grsecurity.
I can’t find a lot in here to disagree with. Of course I appreciate Red Hat for all the free software they’ve developed, funded, and profited from over the past few decades. I use GNOME on Wayland, Systemd, Pipewire, libvirt, virt-manager, and plenty of other software, I’m sure.
A grsecurity enabled kernel is “just” their patchset and any version is only available to their customers, no developer program or anything, there’s no open upstream they provide with their patches or anything.
Red Hat is doing something positive for the community they don’t need to do, which is nice. Personally, I would prefer fewer people wrote this off as a requirement or something “expected” without understanding how the GPL works.
The question is rather what’s the reason to actually redistribute recompiled code when most of it is available in their own funded upstream?
You should be able to share software you find useful with your neighbor; preventing people from doing so is enforcing antisocial behavior. Redistribution is what makes free software work. Whether most of it is available somewhere else or not, that’s something customers have the right to do.
While it would be nice, in this scenario, if Red Hat could say, “you can’t redistribute this; you need to make significant changes,” it just wouldn’t be free software if they could say that. For the same reason, I don’t think the Anti-Capitalist Software License is good (think how much worse things would be if the kernel was licensed under that!). If the Linux kernel was licensed under a non-copyleft license, I’m sure Red Hat would have adopted an “open core” model. Or they would do what Codeweavers does with CrossOver.
Profiting from free software is hard. Sourcehut isn’t profitable yet, but they’re close to breaking even (and they don’t even require you to pay!). But if we remove any of the freedoms the GPL provides, we end up in a situation where the software controls the user, and the developer controls the software, so the developer controls the user. Every freedom is necessary, because without them, it will become proprietary software the user can’t control.
Their first release of Red Hat Linux was in 1994, when the kernel was about three years old and I guess by most people considered a toy rather than an alternative to UNIX. I’d wager that without them, the Linux ecosystem today would look much different, if more than a niche at all.
More than likely, FreeBSD would have taken GNU/Linux’s place, assuming the GNU/HURD people couldn’t manage to organize themselves by that time. The legal problems with FreeBSD would be resolved around that time. Novell was another commercial free software contributor at the time, though, so perhaps they would have been responsible for more programs if not Red Hat. I still use Evolution today. But yes, it’s impossible to deny the positive impact Red Hat had in its formative years and over time. I think it’s disingenuous or ignorant to pretend otherwise.
At the same time, it’s thanks to Linus that Red Hat was able to be significant. If it was released under the original anti-commercial license, things would be far different again.
Personally, I would still sooner deal with Red Hat than Oracle, Microsoft, Apple, Google, or any other conglomerate…
You should be able to share software you find useful with your neighbor; preventing people from doing so is enforcing antisocial behavior. Redistribution is what makes free software work. Whether most of it is available somewhere else or not, that’s something customers have the right to do.
This is a bit of a strawman in my opinion. I’m sure Red Hat won’t care if you, as a customer, use their sources, rebuild them and “share it with your neighbor”. They won’t terminate an account over that, at least I’d be very surprised if they did. I don’t consider “downloading all sources, removing any branding, rebuilding, offering for free and selling commercial support” the same though, but there’s no mechanism in the GPL to differentiate between those.
Redistribution is what makes free software work. Whether most of it is available somewhere else or not, that’s something customers have the right to do.
Agreed, and nobody is denying them this right. However, at the same time, Red Hat has the right to terminate the accounts with customers if they decide that the business relationship costs them more money than it makes them. The right to choose who to have business with is not stronger or weaker than the GPL.
At the same time, it’s thanks to Linus that Red Hat was able to be significant. If it was released under the original anti-commercial license, things would be far different again.
Yes, I did not want to imply that it was all Red Hat that mattered. I just wanted to go against what some people imply, that Red Hat is just freeloading on Open Source and now want to restrict this right to others. E.g. in a video in another thread, Jeff Geerling says something along the lines “Red Hat didn’t build the Linux kernel, nor do they own it” which I think is disingenuous: they never claimed they own the Linux kernel, and they’re the second largest contributor to it after Intel, and relevant portion of Intel’s contributions are drivers specific to their own hardware and as such, only usable in their ecosystem. Plus the kernel is still available in CentOS Stream, which goes above and beyond GPL requirements.
I can see people being upset losing free enterprise-grade distributions (though personally in my limited experience could find nothing to like about it), but at the same time, most of the complainers weren’t actually covered by the GPL at all because Red Hat did not supply them with the binaries anyways.
This is a bit of a strawman in my opinion. I’m sure Red Hat won’t care if you, as a customer, use their sources, rebuild them and “share it with your neighbor”. They won’t terminate an account over that, at least I’d be very surprised if they did. I don’t consider “downloading all sources, removing any branding, rebuilding, offering for free and selling commercial support” the same though, but there’s no mechanism in the GPL to differentiate between those.
The GPL doesn’t differentiate because they’d be getting into the same messy territory as the Anti-Capitalism license. If Red Hat stops selling RHEL, does that mean no one can offer it for free and sell commercial support for it? Does Red Hat only get to tell them to stop if they’re competing? How big does the competing company need to be before it’s not allowed? Is it okay if they’re a non-profit, or a capped-profit, or a government organization?
Keep in mind these are just some issues I thought of in thirty seconds. I’m sure there are plenty more.
Branding is removed because it would be trademark infringement to keep it; if Red Hat wanted it intact, they could give permission to use their trademarks in this scenario, but I doubt they do.
That’s why profiting off free software is hard; because you don’t have a monopoly anymore. I think that’s an important feature.
Agreed, and nobody is denying them this right. However, at the same time, Red Hat has the right to terminate the accounts with customers if they decide that the business relationship costs them more money than it makes them. The right to choose who to have business with is not stronger or weaker than the GPL.
My position is that I don’t think this is how a free software company should behave, but I’ll refrain from voicing any further opinions until Red Hat actually terminates a customer’s contract for redistribution.
Jeff Geerling says something along the lines “Red Hat didn’t build the Linux kernel, nor do they own it” which I think is disingenuous: they never claimed they own the Linux kernel, and they’re the second largest contributor to it after Intel
Yes, I agree. They’re one of the biggest contributors to the kernel alone, but the kernel isn’t even the most important part of GNU/Linux. The userland software matters a lot too, and they’re responsible for funding/developing a lot of that, as well. There’s some stuff in that video I disagree with but overall it’s not too bad.
I can see people being upset losing free enterprise-grade distributions (though personally in my limited experience could find nothing to like about it), but at the same time, most of the complainers weren’t actually covered by the GPL at all because Red Hat did not supply them with the binaries anyways.
I’m pretty sure that, regardless of who you obtain the software from, you have rights under the GPL. I could be wrong.
If the version has been released elsewhere, then the thief probably does have the right to make copies and redistribute them under the GPL, but if thieves are imprisoned for stealing the CD, they may have to wait until their release before doing so.
There is a very big difference between RH and grsec here though, and I hate that people just brush over it. And that is that true, you might not be able build the exact compatible operating system with just names and logos exchanged easily anymore. But no part of their stack is closed source or only available to subscribers, is it? Who pays the pipewire dev and in which distribution did it appear in first? Who paid the systemd developer and is currently the main company behind it? What about NetworkManager? GNOME?
I only know second-hand details. I’ve skimmed the webpage. If you know more, please let me know!
I never said it was, and I would support Red Hat if they only made their free software offerings available to paying customers. I think this is how a free software company should work. Most free software is not sustainable today, and it would be nice if Red Hat could be a good example of how to build a successful free software company.
Even if Red Hat terminates the contracts of customers who share the sources, this wouldn’t be against the GPL, but I think it would be nasty to scare your customers into not exercising their granted freedoms under the GPL. This is the only point of contention I have. After spending about an hour digging through the Red Hat site for the terms of service which supposedly say this, I found some very vague terms. We’ll have to see how this shakes out in reality.
I’m well aware of how important Red Hat is to the free software ecosystem :)
Most recently, they sponsored and organized a hackfest for getting HDR on Wayland compositors.
I’m unaware of any piece of software in RHEL that’s GPL that you can’t run in any other distro down to their specific version. It’s true that it’s hard to get the “complete and bug-for-bug-compatible operating system”, but all the components are there, be it in CentOS Stream or fedora, and a lot of stuff is theirs, not just added changes, but a big part of the codebase.
A grsecurity enabled kernel is “just” their patchset and any version is only available to their customers, no developer program or anything, there’s no open upstream they provide with their patches or anything.
If you have software that you want to work on RPM-based distributions, test against fedora, or CentOS Stream; or, if you have clients insisting on RHEL, use a developer account, the options are there. Or don’t and refer bug reports from RHEL users to their distribution’s support, they’re paying for it and it should be their first PoC anyways.
My post wasn’t only to go against yours, but against a general attitude; that Red Hat just takes upstream code, makes an enterprise distro out of it and then charges big bucks, terminating anyone’s contract who wishes to exercise their rights under GPL. The question is rather what’s the reason to actually redistribute recompiled code when most of it is available in their own funded upstream? People pretend Red Hat is squeezing a community that made them possible in the first place. But the truth is rather the reverse in my opinion. Without Red Hat, the community most likely wouldn’t exist. Their first release of Red Hat Linux was in 1994, when the kernel was about three years old and I guess by most people considered a toy rather than an alternative to UNIX. I’d wager that without them, the Linux ecosystem today would look much different, if more than a niche at all.
I don’t think the same can be said for grsecurity.
I can’t find a lot in here to disagree with. Of course I appreciate Red Hat for all the free software they’ve developed, funded, and profited from over the past few decades. I use GNOME on Wayland, Systemd, Pipewire, libvirt, virt-manager, and plenty of other software, I’m sure.
Red Hat is doing something positive for the community they don’t need to do, which is nice. Personally, I would prefer fewer people wrote this off as a requirement or something “expected” without understanding how the GPL works.
You should be able to share software you find useful with your neighbor; preventing people from doing so is enforcing antisocial behavior. Redistribution is what makes free software work. Whether most of it is available somewhere else or not, that’s something customers have the right to do.
While it would be nice, in this scenario, if Red Hat could say, “you can’t redistribute this; you need to make significant changes,” it just wouldn’t be free software if they could say that. For the same reason, I don’t think the Anti-Capitalist Software License is good (think how much worse things would be if the kernel was licensed under that!). If the Linux kernel was licensed under a non-copyleft license, I’m sure Red Hat would have adopted an “open core” model. Or they would do what Codeweavers does with CrossOver.
Profiting from free software is hard. Sourcehut isn’t profitable yet, but they’re close to breaking even (and they don’t even require you to pay!). But if we remove any of the freedoms the GPL provides, we end up in a situation where the software controls the user, and the developer controls the software, so the developer controls the user. Every freedom is necessary, because without them, it will become proprietary software the user can’t control.
More than likely, FreeBSD would have taken GNU/Linux’s place, assuming the GNU/HURD people couldn’t manage to organize themselves by that time. The legal problems with FreeBSD would be resolved around that time. Novell was another commercial free software contributor at the time, though, so perhaps they would have been responsible for more programs if not Red Hat. I still use Evolution today. But yes, it’s impossible to deny the positive impact Red Hat had in its formative years and over time. I think it’s disingenuous or ignorant to pretend otherwise.
At the same time, it’s thanks to Linus that Red Hat was able to be significant. If it was released under the original anti-commercial license, things would be far different again.
Personally, I would still sooner deal with Red Hat than Oracle, Microsoft, Apple, Google, or any other conglomerate…
This is a bit of a strawman in my opinion. I’m sure Red Hat won’t care if you, as a customer, use their sources, rebuild them and “share it with your neighbor”. They won’t terminate an account over that, at least I’d be very surprised if they did. I don’t consider “downloading all sources, removing any branding, rebuilding, offering for free and selling commercial support” the same though, but there’s no mechanism in the GPL to differentiate between those.
Agreed, and nobody is denying them this right. However, at the same time, Red Hat has the right to terminate the accounts with customers if they decide that the business relationship costs them more money than it makes them. The right to choose who to have business with is not stronger or weaker than the GPL.
Yes, I did not want to imply that it was all Red Hat that mattered. I just wanted to go against what some people imply, that Red Hat is just freeloading on Open Source and now want to restrict this right to others. E.g. in a video in another thread, Jeff Geerling says something along the lines “Red Hat didn’t build the Linux kernel, nor do they own it” which I think is disingenuous: they never claimed they own the Linux kernel, and they’re the second largest contributor to it after Intel, and relevant portion of Intel’s contributions are drivers specific to their own hardware and as such, only usable in their ecosystem. Plus the kernel is still available in CentOS Stream, which goes above and beyond GPL requirements.
I can see people being upset losing free enterprise-grade distributions (though personally in my limited experience could find nothing to like about it), but at the same time, most of the complainers weren’t actually covered by the GPL at all because Red Hat did not supply them with the binaries anyways.
The GPL doesn’t differentiate because they’d be getting into the same messy territory as the Anti-Capitalism license. If Red Hat stops selling RHEL, does that mean no one can offer it for free and sell commercial support for it? Does Red Hat only get to tell them to stop if they’re competing? How big does the competing company need to be before it’s not allowed? Is it okay if they’re a non-profit, or a capped-profit, or a government organization?
Keep in mind these are just some issues I thought of in thirty seconds. I’m sure there are plenty more.
Branding is removed because it would be trademark infringement to keep it; if Red Hat wanted it intact, they could give permission to use their trademarks in this scenario, but I doubt they do.
The ability to sell free software is a fundamental right under the GPL. As Drew Devault says, Open source means surrendering your monopoly over commerical exploitation.
That’s why profiting off free software is hard; because you don’t have a monopoly anymore. I think that’s an important feature.
My position is that I don’t think this is how a free software company should behave, but I’ll refrain from voicing any further opinions until Red Hat actually terminates a customer’s contract for redistribution.
Yes, I agree. They’re one of the biggest contributors to the kernel alone, but the kernel isn’t even the most important part of GNU/Linux. The userland software matters a lot too, and they’re responsible for funding/developing a lot of that, as well. There’s some stuff in that video I disagree with but overall it’s not too bad.
I’m pretty sure that, regardless of who you obtain the software from, you have rights under the GPL. I could be wrong.
I probably could have linked to another answer on the GNU website, but I found the context of this one amusing: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#StolenCopy