Schools don’t work for everyone; some people learn better through experience.
Neurodivergents tend to perform worse in school, because they can’t get proper accomodations. It is difficult to accommodate everyone; so not forcing mandatory school allows children, that can’t learn through school, through their parents.
Bullying can potentially become an issue.
Education can be attained without public school; parents taught children back in the primal ages.
Schools don’t work for everyone; some people learn better through experience.
Sorry, I’m not understanding this point. Schools teach with experience, do they not?
Neurodivergents tend to perform worse in school, because they can’t get proper accomodations. It is difficult to accommodate everyone; so not forcing mandatory school allows children, that can’t learn through school, through their parents.
That is a valid point, but there are various public institutions for children special needs where I live, and from what I hear, they are pretty good, though I have no experience with them. Either way, it’s another thing that can and should be improved.
Bullying can potentially become an issue.
The solution is not to pull your kids from school, it’s to talk to them, teach them how to deal with bullies and also maintain close communication with teachers and other staff so that these situations do not happen, and the provocateurs get properly reprimanded. Anti-bully programmes still have a lot to evolve, but they are way better that 10 or 15 years ago.
Education can be attained without public school; parents taught children back in the primal ages.
Unless you have some super parents knowledgeable on a vast range of topics, this is simply not true.
Ultimately, I don’t think homeschooling is a good idea; school isn’t just a place for learning, it’s also a place for socialization and a way for children to experience different things from what they are used to in their homes. Taking that away from a growing human being can have serious repercussions later down the line.
<center>I haven’t really researched the (U.S) education system; so my replies are just opinions. I am just operating off street knowledge.</center>
Sorry, I’m not understanding this point. Schools teach with experience, do they not?
No. Schools usually graduates students based on memorization tests (or exams and quizzes).
That is a valid point, but there are various public institutions for children special needs where I live, and from what I hear, they are pretty good, though I have no experience with them. Either way, it’s another thing that can and should be improved.
Public institutions can be good; but they don’t always work for the child.
<center><b>Some institutions can be, or are, bad at handling neurodivergent students.</b></center>
Some institutions can accidentally, or intentionally, mistreat neurodivergent students. Examples:
Force people with Autism to tolerate their triggers; they may potentially punish autists for shutting down or melting down.
Force people with tourette’s syndrome to suppress their tics.
Some institutions misuse ABA therapy on neurodivergent (mostly autistic) people; ABA is regarded by autism communities (r/autism) as a harmful therapy that could damage the child’s independence, because it teaches the child that their behaviors should be suppressed.</div>
The solution is not to pull your kids from school, it’s to talk to them, teach them how to deal with bullies and also maintain close communication with teachers and other staff so that these situations do not happen, and the provocateurs get properly reprimanded. Anti-bully programmes still have a lot to evolve, but they are way better that 10 or 15 years ago.
This solution is ideal; but it isn’t always possible. Some schools don’t bother to deal with bullying, even with prodding; so the student would have to perform self defense. If self defense does not work, then the student could try to leave the school and go to another one; but the student could be stuck at their school until they graduate.
Bullying can inflict trauma and long-term health problems, specifically in neurodivergents. In cases where the institution has failed to prevent, or reduce, bullying; it’s best to teach the child self-defense (which I believe is OK, considering sexual assault on children) to defend against their bullies; or pull the child out of school to keep them safe; if the child wasn’t protected, they may receive long-lasting trauma.
Bullying is not rare; students with autism are commonly bullied.<sup>[1][2]</sup>
Unless you have some super parents knowledgeable on a vast range of topics, this is simply not true.
Why would this be the case? Could you link me to some sources or explanations?
Ultimately, I don’t think homeschooling is a good idea; school isn’t just a place for learning,
I disagree. Some parents need homeschooling to educate their children in a way that won’t mess up their children.
People with (untreated and) severe ADHD may struggle with school; to the point that they end up dropping out.
People with Autism may have severe autistic traits that impact their ability to learn in a School.
Some schools indoctrinate their beliefs into children; the guardian may disagree with this treatment.
it’s also a place for socialization and a way for children to experience different things from what they are used to in their homes.
School is not the only place where socialization can occur; people hang out with friends at other places:
Homes
Concerts
Vehicles
Restaurants
Parks
Carnivals
Beaches
Business(es)
If school was the only place children could socialize; then how did (poor) children socialize in the past millennia?
Taking [socialization] away from a growing human being can have serious repercussions later down the line.
Yes. However, some children don’t really need much socialization.
Example: Some people with autism are bad with social conversations; some autists quickly tire themselves out through masking.
If schools were mandatory; people will likely just illegally homeschool their children anyway.
What if a financial problem occurs?
Will the child still be able to enroll?
What if the guardian can’t get their child in a school in time?
What if the child does not learn well in a school environment?
Irrelevant sentence, I know, but I just realized that lemmy, unlike reddit, allows for proper HTML in replies; and I love it! Look, I can add a text area!
First of all, thank you for the big and comprehensive reply! It has helped me better understand this topic :)
I should also say I’m not in the US, but rather from Portugal, so I’m leaning heavily on my experience with our system.
Here follows my inline replies. I suppressed parts of some quotes so they wouldn’t be really big.
No. Schools usually graduates students based on memorization tests (or exams and quizzes).
Poorly written exams are indeed memorization tests, but when done correctly, they require the students to understand the subject and have knowledge beyond copy-pasting everything from the text book into their brains, so to speak. But yeah, I see your point; a lot of tests are not that great and end up suffering from this issue. From my experience, that is far more recurrent on lower grades than on, say, 10th to 12th (called “secondary” school here).
Public institutions can be good; but they don’t always work for the child.
(…)
Thank you for bringing this information, which I was not fully aware of! These are all valid reasons to not trust a public service and instead prefer homeschooling their kids. Nevertheless, or even more so, this should be something that governments should strive to improve, with stricter policies for teacher misbehaviour (which is hard, I know) and looser approaches to teaching and taking care of neurodivergent children.
Some schools don’t bother to deal with bullying, even with prodding; so the student would have to perform self defense. If self defense does not work, then the student could try to leave the school and go to another one; but the student could be stuck at their school until they graduate.
Again, I was too idealistic. It is indeed something that can and most definitely should be improved, and if parents aren’t confident in the school, pulling them out can be an option.
Bullying can inflict trauma and long-term health problems, specifically in neurodivergents. In cases where the institution has failed to prevent, or reduce, bullying; it’s best to teach the child self-defense (which I believe is OK, considering sexual assault on children) to defend against their bullies; or pull the child out of school to keep them safe; if the child wasn’t protected, they may receive long-lasting trauma.
I agree. If the situation can’t really be handled with the school, then pulling the kid out should be an option instead of leaving them suffering the consequences.
Why would this be the case? Could you link me to some sources or explanations?
Have to confess I don’t have any sources, but my rationale is that kids should be exposed to a wide variety of subjects while studying, so that they can have a better chance to find something they truly connect with. If they go to a school, that’s pretty much guaranteed (they surely don’t cover all the topics there are, for obvious reasons, but they do cover an important range, I’d say), however, if they are homeschooled, they can’t really get taught all of those subjects unless their parent(s) don’t work and have the time to research them and devise a programme.
Do you think this is easier than what I’m painting it as? Curious to read your thoughts on it too.
I disagree. Some parents need homeschooling to educate their children in a way that won’t mess up their children.
(…)
I see. That is, in fact, a point I did not consider, but you’re very much right.
Some schools indoctrinate their beliefs into children; the guardian may disagree with this treatment.
That can be an issue with private schools; I wouldn’t say the same regarding public ones. But yes, it is a valid concern.
School is not the only place where socialization can occur; people hang out with friends at other places:
(…)
It is most definitely not the only place where socialization can occur, however, I’d argue it is the main place where it does occur. Most kids spend most of their day at school, specially between grades 5 and 9 (at least here), and thus is a major point of contact with other kids. All the other places you listed are perfectly valid, but if a child is homeschooled, then it sort of “loses” that big chunk of socialization opportunities.
If school was the only place children could socialize; then how did (poor) children socialize in the past millennia?
Valid point, but one has to consider the immense difference of how communities worked in the past. Cities were smaller, the population was way more spread through small, rural towns and villages and, in general, communities were much closer than they are today. Additionally, pretty much no-one went to school (we’re talking about a very wide period of time, so I’m heavily generalizing), so there were more kids to socialize with outside of it. Nowadays, communities are often centred around schools and thus is can be harder to socialize if you’re not part of one.
However, some children don’t really need much socialization.
Example: Some people with autism are bad with social conversations; some autists quickly tire themselves out through masking.
Another valid point, thank you.
What if a financial problem occurs?
The point of public schools is that they are paid by the government. My parents spent nothing on my education since 5th grade, except basic materials (even text books are now offered by the government, in a return programme). While I was in private school, I was in a mixed music conservatory regime, which was subsidized by the government, and public school was completely free for everyone.
What if the guardian can’t get their child in a school in time?
I’ve had multiple classmates join the class mid-term. That’s generally not an issue, as far as I’m aware.
What if the child does not learn well in a school environment?
Perfectly valid point. I’d say that if there are no specialized places you trust your child with, then yes, homeschooling can be an option.
I really appreciate the effort you put into your reply and it has helped me see things a bit differently, consider other points of view and cases which I was not aware of/familiar with.
With this new information, I can no longer say homeschooling is a bad idea - it can be a good idea! However, generally speaking, public schools are a good “bet” and they should definitely get more attention and care from governments and responsible entities, as they could be so much better.
Irrelevant sentence, I know, but I just realized that lemmy, unlike reddit, allows for proper HTML in replies; and I love it! Look, I can add a text area!
:O I was unaware of this too! Thanks for sharing hehe
<details>
<summary>You can make collapsibles with this!</summary>
<p>:D</p>
<details>
<summary>Markdown should support this</summary>
<p>Maybe there’s even a flavour that has it already?</p>
</details
</details>
There is no dealing with bullies. They’re like war zones. You don’t bring your children into the bunker, sit them down and say “now kids, it’s important to know when to duck, elsewise you’ll catch some shrapnel to the brainpain and be dead”.
If someone said that unironically, you’d think they were some sort of microcephalous imbecile. Rightly so, too.
But here you are talking about another sort of trauma as if it’s something that can be “dealt with”. You watch too many movies where the still-attractive-enough-to-be-on-screen bully hugs the victim at the end and they make up and become best friends. Lucky you, I guess. Never had to experience it firsthand.
and also maintain close communication with teachers and other staff so that these situations do not happen
For fuck’s sake, sometimes the teachers and the staff are in on it. Or they are the bullies. Do you think that the teacher’s union is going to step out of the way when you complain?
Do you think that a teacher that is a bully is stupid enough to bully all the kids? Since it’s just some, some of the time, then when you complain about your children being harassed, mistreated, and abused the other parents will say “gee, he’s never done that to my kid, maybe you’re a Karen!”. And that will be the end of it.
Anti-bully programmes still have a lot to evolve
They’re PR. If a school can claim they have an “anti-bully program”, then they have Teflon armor if someone does complain. And it doesn’t matter if they’re effective or not.
And how could they be effective? No one even understands the sociology of bullying well enough to know why it happens, or if it is feasible to prevent it from happening (probably not if schools are scaled up past a certain size, a size that even the smallest schools grew past a century ago).
Ultimately, I don’t think homeschooling is a good idea; school isn’t just a place for learning, it’s also a place for socialization
As for “socialization”, no one has ever been able to objectively define what this process is to me. It’s always defined by where they believe it to occur, and somehow it’s impossible for it to occur anywhere else. Apparently socialization just didn’t occur prior to the advent of Prussian-style schooling, and all humans were feral savages sometime before the 1920s.
Taking that away from a growing human being can have serious repercussions later down the line.
You don’t even believe this horseshit yourself. If we were to talk about some child of a person who travels for a living, bringing the kid along, you rant and rave about the incredible educational opportunity that kid has. They get to see the world, exotic locations, be exposed to foreign languages, constantly reading books (because not much else is so portable). But of course, such children are the children of elites, and they both deserve such and can be trusted with that.
The children of people of more modest means, fuck them. Force them into the inner-city medium-security school. You know what’s best for them, and it’s a 12 year dose of crippling bureaucracy, starvation-level education rations, and abuse.
Neurodivergents tend to perform worse in school, because they can’t get proper accomodations.
My mother was instrumental in me getting through k-12 school with a solid education. I have ADHD, as well as some sort of issues around writing that have been hard to pin down. Otherwise, I was always easily in the top 10% intellectually. My parents are both teachers, so they knew which levers to pull to get the help I needed. I just wish all kids in my situation had an advocate like that.
I’m in a similar situation; except I’m currently beginning to lose my momentum in senior year of online school.
I got carried through School with early intervention, ADHD meds, good people, and IEPs (that I didn’t use because of fear).
I weased off my ADHD meds in 9th grade. Bad idea! I started to feel tired constantly.
I learnt early that I had ADHD; but I didn’t understand what ADHD was, until I researched it up last year.
Even with the support I got; I felt that School wasted my time.
I wanted to learn complex math and engineering power tools as a child. All I got to play with was Glue, Tape, and kid-friendly material. I ended up losing interest in engineering stuff anyway; but I imagine that I could have kept my interest for longer if school wasn’t so slow.
I’m uncertain if I can survive work in a country with good worker support. (I fear work in the U.S; I’ve heard a lot of stories of worker mistreatment in the U.S.)
No.
Schools don’t work for everyone; some people learn better through experience.
Neurodivergents tend to perform worse in school, because they can’t get proper accomodations. It is difficult to accommodate everyone; so not forcing mandatory school allows children, that can’t learn through school, through their parents.
Bullying can potentially become an issue.
Education can be attained without public school; parents taught children back in the primal ages.
Sorry, I’m not understanding this point. Schools teach with experience, do they not?
That is a valid point, but there are various public institutions for children special needs where I live, and from what I hear, they are pretty good, though I have no experience with them. Either way, it’s another thing that can and should be improved.
The solution is not to pull your kids from school, it’s to talk to them, teach them how to deal with bullies and also maintain close communication with teachers and other staff so that these situations do not happen, and the provocateurs get properly reprimanded. Anti-bully programmes still have a lot to evolve, but they are way better that 10 or 15 years ago.
Unless you have some super parents knowledgeable on a vast range of topics, this is simply not true.
Ultimately, I don’t think homeschooling is a good idea; school isn’t just a place for learning, it’s also a place for socialization and a way for children to experience different things from what they are used to in their homes. Taking that away from a growing human being can have serious repercussions later down the line.
<center>I haven’t really researched the (U.S) education system; so my replies are just opinions. I am just operating off street knowledge.</center>
No. Schools usually graduates students based on memorization tests (or exams and quizzes).
Public institutions can be good; but they don’t always work for the child.
<center><b>Some institutions can be, or are, bad at handling neurodivergent students.</b></center>
Some institutions can accidentally, or intentionally, mistreat neurodivergent students. Examples:
Some institutions misuse ABA therapy on neurodivergent (mostly autistic) people; ABA is regarded by autism communities (r/autism) as a harmful therapy that could damage the child’s independence, because it teaches the child that their behaviors should be suppressed.</div>
This solution is ideal; but it isn’t always possible. Some schools don’t bother to deal with bullying, even with prodding; so the student would have to perform self defense. If self defense does not work, then the student could try to leave the school and go to another one; but the student could be stuck at their school until they graduate.
Bullying can inflict trauma and long-term health problems, specifically in neurodivergents. In cases where the institution has failed to prevent, or reduce, bullying; it’s best to teach the child self-defense (which I believe is OK, considering sexual assault on children) to defend against their bullies; or pull the child out of school to keep them safe; if the child wasn’t protected, they may receive long-lasting trauma.
Bullying is not rare; students with autism are commonly bullied.<sup>[1][2]</sup>
Why would this be the case? Could you link me to some sources or explanations?
I disagree. Some parents need homeschooling to educate their children in a way that won’t mess up their children.
People with (untreated and) severe ADHD may struggle with school; to the point that they end up dropping out.
People with Autism may have severe autistic traits that impact their ability to learn in a School.
Some schools indoctrinate their beliefs into children; the guardian may disagree with this treatment.
School is not the only place where socialization can occur; people hang out with friends at other places:
If school was the only place children could socialize; then how did (poor) children socialize in the past millennia?
Yes. However, some children don’t really need much socialization.
Example: Some people with autism are bad with social conversations; some autists quickly tire themselves out through masking.
If schools were mandatory; people will likely just illegally homeschool their children anyway.
Irrelevant sentence, I know, but I just realized that lemmy, unlike reddit, allows for proper HTML in replies; and I love it! Look, I can add a text area!
<textarea>Put some text in here!</textarea>
First of all, thank you for the big and comprehensive reply! It has helped me better understand this topic :)
I should also say I’m not in the US, but rather from Portugal, so I’m leaning heavily on my experience with our system.
Here follows my inline replies. I suppressed parts of some quotes so they wouldn’t be really big.
Poorly written exams are indeed memorization tests, but when done correctly, they require the students to understand the subject and have knowledge beyond copy-pasting everything from the text book into their brains, so to speak. But yeah, I see your point; a lot of tests are not that great and end up suffering from this issue. From my experience, that is far more recurrent on lower grades than on, say, 10th to 12th (called “secondary” school here).
Thank you for bringing this information, which I was not fully aware of! These are all valid reasons to not trust a public service and instead prefer homeschooling their kids. Nevertheless, or even more so, this should be something that governments should strive to improve, with stricter policies for teacher misbehaviour (which is hard, I know) and looser approaches to teaching and taking care of neurodivergent children.
Again, I was too idealistic. It is indeed something that can and most definitely should be improved, and if parents aren’t confident in the school, pulling them out can be an option.
I agree. If the situation can’t really be handled with the school, then pulling the kid out should be an option instead of leaving them suffering the consequences.
Have to confess I don’t have any sources, but my rationale is that kids should be exposed to a wide variety of subjects while studying, so that they can have a better chance to find something they truly connect with. If they go to a school, that’s pretty much guaranteed (they surely don’t cover all the topics there are, for obvious reasons, but they do cover an important range, I’d say), however, if they are homeschooled, they can’t really get taught all of those subjects unless their parent(s) don’t work and have the time to research them and devise a programme.
Do you think this is easier than what I’m painting it as? Curious to read your thoughts on it too.
I see. That is, in fact, a point I did not consider, but you’re very much right.
That can be an issue with private schools; I wouldn’t say the same regarding public ones. But yes, it is a valid concern.
It is most definitely not the only place where socialization can occur, however, I’d argue it is the main place where it does occur. Most kids spend most of their day at school, specially between grades 5 and 9 (at least here), and thus is a major point of contact with other kids. All the other places you listed are perfectly valid, but if a child is homeschooled, then it sort of “loses” that big chunk of socialization opportunities.
Valid point, but one has to consider the immense difference of how communities worked in the past. Cities were smaller, the population was way more spread through small, rural towns and villages and, in general, communities were much closer than they are today. Additionally, pretty much no-one went to school (we’re talking about a very wide period of time, so I’m heavily generalizing), so there were more kids to socialize with outside of it. Nowadays, communities are often centred around schools and thus is can be harder to socialize if you’re not part of one.
Another valid point, thank you.
The point of public schools is that they are paid by the government. My parents spent nothing on my education since 5th grade, except basic materials (even text books are now offered by the government, in a return programme). While I was in private school, I was in a mixed music conservatory regime, which was subsidized by the government, and public school was completely free for everyone.
I’ve had multiple classmates join the class mid-term. That’s generally not an issue, as far as I’m aware.
Perfectly valid point. I’d say that if there are no specialized places you trust your child with, then yes, homeschooling can be an option.
I really appreciate the effort you put into your reply and it has helped me see things a bit differently, consider other points of view and cases which I was not aware of/familiar with.
With this new information, I can no longer say homeschooling is a bad idea - it can be a good idea! However, generally speaking, public schools are a good “bet” and they should definitely get more attention and care from governments and responsible entities, as they could be so much better.
:O I was unaware of this too! Thanks for sharing hehe
<details> <summary>You can make collapsibles with this!</summary> <p>:D</p> <details> <summary>Markdown should support this</summary> <p>Maybe there’s even a flavour that has it already?</p> </details </details>
I can’t really make a good reply right now; but I may in the future. I appreciate your perspective.
I didn’t even think of collapsed text!
Glad to have had this discussion with you! Will keep an eye out for a future reply ;)
There is no dealing with bullies. They’re like war zones. You don’t bring your children into the bunker, sit them down and say “now kids, it’s important to know when to duck, elsewise you’ll catch some shrapnel to the brainpain and be dead”.
If someone said that unironically, you’d think they were some sort of microcephalous imbecile. Rightly so, too.
But here you are talking about another sort of trauma as if it’s something that can be “dealt with”. You watch too many movies where the still-attractive-enough-to-be-on-screen bully hugs the victim at the end and they make up and become best friends. Lucky you, I guess. Never had to experience it firsthand.
For fuck’s sake, sometimes the teachers and the staff are in on it. Or they are the bullies. Do you think that the teacher’s union is going to step out of the way when you complain?
Do you think that a teacher that is a bully is stupid enough to bully all the kids? Since it’s just some, some of the time, then when you complain about your children being harassed, mistreated, and abused the other parents will say “gee, he’s never done that to my kid, maybe you’re a Karen!”. And that will be the end of it.
They’re PR. If a school can claim they have an “anti-bully program”, then they have Teflon armor if someone does complain. And it doesn’t matter if they’re effective or not.
And how could they be effective? No one even understands the sociology of bullying well enough to know why it happens, or if it is feasible to prevent it from happening (probably not if schools are scaled up past a certain size, a size that even the smallest schools grew past a century ago).
As for “socialization”, no one has ever been able to objectively define what this process is to me. It’s always defined by where they believe it to occur, and somehow it’s impossible for it to occur anywhere else. Apparently socialization just didn’t occur prior to the advent of Prussian-style schooling, and all humans were feral savages sometime before the 1920s.
You don’t even believe this horseshit yourself. If we were to talk about some child of a person who travels for a living, bringing the kid along, you rant and rave about the incredible educational opportunity that kid has. They get to see the world, exotic locations, be exposed to foreign languages, constantly reading books (because not much else is so portable). But of course, such children are the children of elites, and they both deserve such and can be trusted with that.
The children of people of more modest means, fuck them. Force them into the inner-city medium-security school. You know what’s best for them, and it’s a 12 year dose of crippling bureaucracy, starvation-level education rations, and abuse.
That thought never entered my mind until you said it. It’s a lot more believable than I thought.
My mother was instrumental in me getting through k-12 school with a solid education. I have ADHD, as well as some sort of issues around writing that have been hard to pin down. Otherwise, I was always easily in the top 10% intellectually. My parents are both teachers, so they knew which levers to pull to get the help I needed. I just wish all kids in my situation had an advocate like that.
I’m in a similar situation; except I’m currently beginning to lose my momentum in senior year of online school.
I got carried through School with early intervention, ADHD meds, good people, and IEPs (that I didn’t use because of fear).
I weased off my ADHD meds in 9th grade. Bad idea! I started to feel tired constantly.
I learnt early that I had ADHD; but I didn’t understand what ADHD was, until I researched it up last year.
Even with the support I got; I felt that School wasted my time.
I wanted to learn complex math and engineering power tools as a child. All I got to play with was Glue, Tape, and kid-friendly material. I ended up losing interest in engineering stuff anyway; but I imagine that I could have kept my interest for longer if school wasn’t so slow.
I’m uncertain if I can survive work in a country with good worker support. (I fear work in the U.S; I’ve heard a lot of stories of worker mistreatment in the U.S.)