- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
All undecided voters in a U.S. swing states focus group hosted by pollster Frank Luntz said President Biden should be replaced as the Democratic nominee after watching his first presidential debate against former President Trump.
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And yet a senile knocking on death’s door old man is still the objectively better option than Donald Trump. I just can’t understand how people have forgotten who this guy is and what he did to screw every American for his own ego and interests.
This debate (which I didn’t watch) was a spectacle. We all know both of these farts are not fair presidential candidates for Americans. It’s disgusting and gut wrenching.
If you’re undecided, all you need to do is bypass your social media feed and biased news sources and search for Trump presidential accomplishments | Biden presidential accomplishment. You can also check Politifact to observe their lies (here’s the result from the debate) and presidential promises kept and broken - Trump | Biden.
The problem is the vast majority of people don’t care or aren’t aware of actual policy and legislation that happens in DC. They go by a vibe. And they go by who’s the best orator (see: Obama). And, yeah, Biden did not pass the vibe check last night. But he’s still that guy you work with whom you hate to be around because he’s awkward and smells bad but he’s not firable because he’s a decent keeps-to-himself dude and gets shit done better than most and your company is better with him than without him.
Aren’t they both “senile knocking on death’s door old man”
Clown fucking world.
No, the immediate problem is that we know that people make decisions based on a vibe and who orates better and (out of all of the qualified people in the country) we still hang our hat (and the future of the country) on a poor orator with a bad vibe. It’s 2016 all over again and it seems like nobody’s learned a thing.
This shouldn’t be a hard race at all. Why are we insisting on handicapping ourselves like this?
It just needs to not be Trump at this point. Biden isn’t a touchdown, he’s a punt with the hopes that we can do better next time.
The problem is that the people who agree with your statement aren’t the ones who we need to convince.
In my view too much is on the line to run Biden. He needs to voluntarily step down where then any younger fresh face that isn’t Kamala can win simply by peoples’ excitement for something different and youthful.
I fully agree with you but can also point to all of Biden’s accomplishments and say, well, he’s done very well, surprisingly well, thus far. I would much rather say, it’s exciting to have fresh young blood in the White House that best represents the vast diversity of this country and the hope for its future. Being able to easily defend Biden’s presidency isn’t enough, if I’m being honest. But also, I mean do we really have to go over everything that DT fucked?
Worst election ever.
The problem is we’re not given an opportunity to vote for who we want to be president. We vote against who we don’t want.
RANKED. CHOICE. VOTING.
Biden policies or a handler’s policies in the shadows?
If you have something to say, go for it.
After Reagan left office, we learned he had Alzheimer’s, and Nancy was governing from the shadows. It didn’t come out* until years after he died. 🤷♀️ I don’t think he’s well, and I thought it’s obvious, but I guess people believe what they want to believe. That applies to me, too.
That’s a fair comparison. I don’t think Biden is in this situation, yet. Could be worse - it could be Trump making his own unilateral decisions.
He may or not be in that situation, but if he is, I don’t think anyone will tell us, anytime soon.
Yes, tfg was worse and would be worse still. The Democrats see the writing on the wall and are not getting it together rapidly or “radically” enough. I’m aware that’s not a popular opinion, but it’s what I see, regardless of if everyone not for the other guy gets on board or not.
That’s not going to happen unfortunately, so the choice is Biden or Trump. Want better candidates? Ensure Biden wins and start to promote more progressive candidates in your local elections, then keep supporting them as they climb the political ladder.
Hoping for a last minute candidate swap for the Democrats is just a fantasy.
Says who? You do realize the convention hasn’t even happened yet, right? There are absolutely ways this can change and without too much issue.
Let’s not say it’s impossible when it absolutely can and a wide swath of the Democratic coalition are suggesting this in earnest.
Ok, fair point, but let’s see how many people continue to push “both sides”, “don’t bother voting”, or “I’m going to vote 3rd party” after the convention.
Anyone that continues to push those talking points is trying to help Trump. Plain and simple.
Wholly agree. I will push back against anyone who suggests that. But personally, I am going to advocate we change our nominee while we have time. And if that doesn’t happen, well sure, I’ll fall in line and vote for Biden or anyone so long as it isnt Trump.
Democrats have already voted in their primaries. To switch candidates for that party now would be to disenfranchise those voters.
Nah, for starters those votes are of a private party and not the actual general elections. Second, there are protocols in place that allow a change in nominee, and third those votes were a snapshot in time not reflective of where people are necessarily now.
I’m sorry if I’m repeating some other response; often my Lemmy client can’t load sub comments, and I see you already have 6.
I think we’re voting for Kamala. She’s not running because she can’t win, not against Trump, and probably not against anyone else. She’s even more unpopular than Biden, and the Right would have a field day if she were the front runner.
But, frankly, side by side, Trump looks more healthy and robust than Biden, and it’s saying something. If Biden is elected, Kamala will be president before the end of his term.
I don’t know if that’s terrible; I don’t particularly care for her, but she’s better than Trump, and is on the right side of most of the issues I care about. Also, if she did a decent job and had some luck, she’d be able to run again for a second term, and we could get an unusual streak of three liberal(ish) terms.
As for Biden, a president’s staff does most of the real work of any president; I think of a president more like the captain of a large ship: they take a lot of input from the crew, and make decisions. They don’t gather the information or touch the controls; as long as they have a competent team, I suspect nearly anyone could functionally be president. As long as he’s mentally capable of processing the information he’s given and making rational decisions, he can do his job. I’m just no longer convinced he’s going to be capable of that for a full term, and the way he’s looking, I wouldn’t be surprised if he physically failed in the next 4 years.
So: President Harris. I just hope they’re putting effort into making sure she can step into the shoes quickly. If Biden can even win this election.
Biden, though. Dude’s looking like Lo Pan from Big Trouble in Little China.
This has been my thought for a long time. You’re basically setting the stage for President Harris. If Biden survive 2 years and 1 day, we can get 10 years of Kamala.
Why would we even want that, though? Harris is a cop, and her presidency would likely be just as impotent and mediocre as Biden’s. Like Biden, she’s going to bend to corporate interests, please no one in the interest of pleasing everyone, not make or advocate for any major protective reforms to the democratic process (ranked choice voting, etc.), and try to take the high road against directly calling out fascism. When will the DNC get it through their heads that their departmental politics and seniority process shouldn’t decide the president-- the people should?
Also, I find it immoral of them to play a horrible game of “switcheroo” with Harris and Biden. It feels like what you’re saying is, they know she’s unpopular and would lose an election, but if we switch her in for Biden through this presidency then everyone will see how great she is! We don’t need an election, we just need the great and powerful DNC to plan our presidents for us!!!
To clarify in case it isn’t obvious, I am a trans, disabled leftist. But this is EXACTLY why Trump is so popular and why everyone hates the DNC.
2 years and 1 day
OK. This is a specific reference to something about our laws of succession about which I’m embarrassingly ignorant. Can you save me a web search and elaborate?
You’re allowed to be president two times, this is a constitutional amendment. But for it to count as one time, you have to be president for some fraction longer than 50% of a four year term, i.e. 2 years plus 1 day. So if Biden can survive that long then die, Kamala would be president but it wouldn’t count as a term. She could then run for office twice more.
Thank you! So, in that situation, instead of 3 consecutive terms, we could see 4.
Assuming she’s successful, becomes far more popular, and there are no major crises that work against her.
The most reliable way to get re-elected is to be president when a war starts. Like how Bush Jr engineered 9/11 so he could ensure re-election(*). But it tensions escalated with Russia and we got involved, that’d do it.
(*) Yeah, no. I don’t really believe that. It’s just a joke.
This is just as relevant for Trump. His running mate matters. Neither of them are statistically likely to survive a second term in office. One of them is a little bit older and appears to be more frail. The other one has a terrible diet with no exercise and could keel over from a heart attack or a stroke at any moment.
We should be talking about the VP picks much more than anyone is.
Yah, absolutely. I’m frankly a little surprised Trump is still alive.
We know who Biden’s running mate is going to be, unless there’s a surprise upset. Trump’s is still up in the air and the weasels are currently fighting for it.
Ughh that’s what Neolibs and the DNC said 4 years ago when they force-fed the left Joe Biden
We are going to get less than ideal candidates until the voting system changes. I think it might be the one point of agreement with most voters in this country that we need a new voting system because first past the post isn’t working well.
Voting reform and overturning citizens united would be a start
Given the current Tribunal of Six, overturning Citizens United would likely involve a ruling that only corporations can vote.
One step at a time!
First, only landowners can vote. Then, only male landowners. Then, only white male landowners.
Gotta boil that frog.
deleted by creator
it just needs to not be trump, so let’s punt on the election?
If anything, RFK’s election results just skyrocketed.
We certainly aren’t going to try a risky move like getting a candidate other than Biden elected. It’s way too late to try to get the name recognition going. People know Biden, they know Trump. You could potentially split the vote which gives Trump the automatic win.
He’s an unforced error. Still better than demolishing the field though.
This is next time. In 2028 youll be saying next time again
The problem is, if Trump wins, there likely won’t be a next time. He’s out there saying as much on the campaign trail, and he’s tried it before.
The problem is we’re on course for Trump winning. Trump has voters who like him, he has voters obsessed with him that will oust even other republicans if Trump wills it. He’s also got voters that are just voting against Biden, whoever has the R by their name. Trumps gonna win if all you have are voters that are just voting against Trump. No one’s excited about Biden. Throw in any younger dem politician right now and youll see a dam breaking of voters excited to vote for someone they dont have to worry about getting dementia in office.
You’re preaching to the choir here. If I could throw Biden out and replace him with, I don’t know, Sanders or AOC or someone, I would in a heartbeat.
I agree with you. Trump is, unfortunately, on track to win. And if Trump wins, the death of American democracy is imminent, and none of us are going to like what’s next.
by pollster Frank Luntz
Do better, Axios.
I don’t know the specific problem with that pollster but the general message of the headline still stands IMO.
Trump’s debate performance was awful, but so was Biden’s, and somehow because this country is weird as hell Biden is held to a much higher standard than Trump while also being immensely unpopular.
No. The message does not stand at all.
Frank Ian Luntz (born February 23, 1962) is an American political and communications consultant and pollster,[1][2] best known for developing talking points and other messaging for Republican causes. His work has included assistance with messaging for Newt Gingrich’s Contract with America and public relations support for pro-Israel policies in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. He advocated use of vocabulary crafted to produce a desired effect, including use of the term death tax instead of estate tax, and climate change instead of global warming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz
This man is a propagandist. Do not use him as a source for anything. You might as well just listen to the Trump campaign if you’re going to listen to him.
Damn. Axios really should have mentioned it is a partisan pollster. That’s disappointing.
Trump’s debate performance was awful, but so was Biden’s, and somehow because this country is weird as hell Biden is held to a much higher standard than Trump while also being immensely unpopular.
Trump’s performance as a debater was awful. He ignored the questions put to him, and frequently lied through his teeth. But, you could put a clip from this debate alongside a clip from his debate with Hillary 8 years ago, and not really see much of a difference.
The reason people are freaking out is that Biden’s age was on full display here. His stutter was much more visible, his voice was raspy at times, and he frequently couldn’t finish his thoughts before the mic went off. We also have a long history of his time in government to know how he used to be.
If this election turns into a referendum on Biden’s age, he loses. Even though Trump is only 3 years younger. Trump doesn’t show it.
I mean a lot of the time Biden’s sentence’s were incoherent. Reminding me of the Trump shark type blabbering. Disappointing. Although it seems he was ill.
Becoming incoherent because of a illness, that doesn’t hospitalize you, isn’t a great trait for a president.
We lost to Trump in 2016 because we ignored how relentlessly unpopular Hilary Clinton was, Republicans spent decades smearing her every chance they got.
Biden just proved their claims about his mental fitness, if we ignore that by calling it optics, we’ll lose.
Well, at least now they know how the rest of us feel about undecided voters
e; But yeah, Biden was not good (and that is not good for democracy in America and the general well being of the rest of the world)
I gotta say, I recognized both of those debate performances. One of them’s the angry grandfather who’s always complaining that his foreign neighbor is stealing his trash; the other’s the nice grandpa who calls you by your cousin’s name, then gives you $5 to go to a movie.
I wouldn’t want either to babysit my kids - Trump because he’d steal my TV and throw out my avocados; Biden because he’d fall down the stairs and let the kids stay up to midnight eating ice cream.
But a President’s job isn’t really to be a subject matter expert on every policy. He’s there to assemble a good team of policy matter experts and balance the needs of normal people against the power of megacorporations. And we have the rare opportunity to judge both grandpas on their past performance: Jared Kushner, Secretary of Everything; Janet Yellen vs Steve Mnuchin; Rick Perry vs Jennifer Granholm; Jeff Sessions & William Barr vs Merrick Garland.
Ehh, I’d say he was more boringly safe, especially for a lot of his in-country policy stuff.
And that’s a good thing. The presidency is not meant to be glorious, exciting, or full of media magnet bombshells. Those generally mean that something has gone wrong.
Hahahha. Your not wrong.
FYI, I edited my comment a bit while you were replying, I’m still not wrong (imo haha) but you should be aware
Still agree
Getting really sick of the media focusing only on what Biden did wrong rather than what Trump did wrong.
You know who just had the opportunity to focus on what Trump did (and is doing) wrong and flubbed it? Biden.
A vote for Biden is the easiest decision I’ll make this year. Biden and his administration are doing solid work and I want to see more of it. Trump ensures genocide in Gaza. Trump ensures even more horrible acts in Ukraine by Russia. Trump ensures an even further conservative Supreme Court, further destroying and reversing settled law. Another 4 years of Trump will be a disaster.
But I know this already.
Any other generic Democrat would have kicked Trump’s ass last night. Trump tells a lie, they correct it. Biden got a few blows in but he flubbed so many more.
Look at abortion, a layup for Democrats. America as a whole agrees with Democrats on the issue. What did Biden do? Fumbled and wandered into something about immigration.
The focus on Biden because we want better. Biden is better. Prove it.
Trump was Trump, as expected. There’s nothing more to be said about him that hasn’t already been said.
The consequence of biden positioning himself as “the guy to beat trump”.
Would really like to meet the person that’s undecided between Trump and Biden. I could understand someone staying home long before someone choosing between the two.
I think there are a lot of people who are so disconnected from the news, and their family and friend groups are similarly disconnected from the news, that it barely reaches them. They might be able to name the current president but not much else.
Those people won’t have watched the debate.
I think you’re wrong in that anyone disconnected from the news only feels the effects of the presidency through the economy and most unkowledgable voters don’t like Biden because of inflation.
Undecided voters have to be uneducated people that don’t know enough to discern truth from lies and therefore take trump at face value.
Luntz’s is Gingrich’s do-boy. Downvoted for spreading his bullshit propaganda.
Biden did alright imo. People keep disregarding the substance of his arguments over his age.
People keep disregarding the substance of his arguments
Speaking as someone who thinks that much of the doomerism around the debate is premature…
These debates aren’t about substance. They’re about optics. And Biden didn’t put on a good show last night. The only saving grace is that he was up against Trump.
Biden did well after 930pm.
I bet most people only watched the first 30 minutes. In fact, I bet most people went into their phones and stopped listening full-time within 10 minutes.
Biden was very bad at the start. Biden figured out the flow of things by 10pm but I think that was too late.
Put last nights Biden up against any option from the previous primaries. Even Harris. He looked and responded exceptionally poor last night and anyone else would have been a better option.
Yeah Biden fucking tanked. They should not have put him on that stage.
All of the responders voting to replace him is an achievement
Limp dick grandpas did a thing y’all!!!
