I think they clearly expressed they were going through some hard times. I don’t think that’s necessarily a sin. And I don’t think one comment we all disagree (landlords) is a good lone reason to ban. Did I miss something? Not trying to stir the pot I just think patience and compassion should always come first.
Like others said, he had some very negative views in his comment history. He had them for a while now and he was spreading a very negative message from time to time.
That being said, he also mentioned he was going through some hard times.
To me it always seemed like he was genuinely confused about some aspects of ML. I don’t think he acted in bad faith. He simply didn’t understand some things and coupled with some mental health problems he may not have been able to always see the point we were trying to make.
I’m not a mod/admin, so I have no say in this, but I personally think a ban is too harsh. He had some good contributions to the site as well, be it through posts or comments. I don’t think we should start banning people just because they don’t always agree with the popular take. Part of why I like this place is because I feel people can always discuss things, which is a great part of how we can learn over here. Engaging in debate is something that gets mentioned here a lot but somehow a user disagreeing with some points gets banned. I don’t think that’s right. Especially when the user is, in my opinion, not acting in bad faith.
Yes, we need to be better than the larger platforms that drove us for this exact reason (r/communism, Reddit in general, etc.). I remember forums like r/communism being much more diverse and open to differing opinions even a few years ago, and it was what made the community so accessible to a larger audience that wouldn’t have otherwise bothered. I feel like we need more of that here. We need to be more tolerant of people’s different takes on ML and socialism in general, while also using facts and evidence to disprove them.
I am also very in favor of this because of radicalization. I have absolutely no experience running or moderating any sort of online community so I can appreciate that this might be dumb, but to me I wouldn’t even ban openly belligerent liberals or fascists in hopes of working the long game and changing their perspective slowly behind closed doors (or, at the very least, the minds of silent lurkers represented by such people representing their ideologies having their points torn apart). I know the risk of corruption though, if for example GZD or lemmygrad had done that I would have been a severe risk of slowly losing its ML backbone, there’s definitely pros and cons to it.
I respectfully disagree but I do not have the time to write a well-worded/edited response (I have an appointment to keep) but I (1) don’t want to downvote becaues I agree with much of what you say, and (2) don’t want no other voice to be heard. Better some sloppily-written input than a downvote.
Quickly: I personally engaged with that account many times in good faith and it really was like talking to a brick wall. At a certain level we, on here, are not therapists and while the reality of the world is bleak and for some it can be a bit much no one is forcing people to spend time on here, and I am not going to police how honest I am about the world to spare someone else’s feelings. I can tell you right now, the world is even more bleak than that person realized but they were too busy spreading doomerist ideas to learn anything (e.g. the mass sterilization campaigns in California which began all the way back in the 20s)
To hear that they were a landlord apologist also makes me seriously doubt they understood much of any of this.
(1) ML is not a doomerist area of thought and it is not a bloodthirsty area of thought, it is simply ruthless in it’s aim of establishing a better world, because those who stand in the way are ruthless in defending their parasitic roles.
(2) Do you really understand how bad things are if you are a landlord apologist? I worked for and with mom and pop and larger landlords in my early investing days and I even intended to become one. While it may vary from case to caes, the mom and pop landlord who is nice is a complete myth. When the time to pay comes, they all evict (I know from covid times). Not to mention they represent a tiny fraction of landlords to begin with. The Chinese did not execute all the landlords btw not even close, but it was seen as a mark against them and I agree wholeheartedly with that. If you can harden your heart enough to be a landlord I don’t want you having a big role in the future of humanity. I have been a calculating business man and a lawyer for some time and even before i was introduced to ML thought I could never bring myself to be a landlord because it is just so unredeemably vile imho. it takes a special type of person, and not the good kind of special.
Visiting the apartment complexes of my “nicer” landlord co-workers turned me revolutionary. How could they harden their hearts to this reality and not thing something ought to change!?
Final thought: at a certain point being a doomer is a luxury. Currently hundreds of millions of people are cold, hungry, in pain, in refugee camps, under attack by military and police forces, etc. That emanates almost entirely from the imperial core. I will not throw my hands up and say “it’s depressing but there’s nothing I can do… it’s preordained” That is the ultimate selfishness to me. I can only help them deal with their personal anxieties so much, they must also be putting effort in themselves.
To be clear, I am not discounting mental health or saying it has no place on here, I personally engaged with this person at length on the topic with literally no response from them and saw the same hapen to others. I’m just saying that there is a way of going about it that is more conducive to a community environment.
I am certain I misspoke, made generalizations, and I am certain that if challenged I would change some of my stances stated here, but that is my initial, un-edited reaction. I personally support the admins on this.
I can see where you’re coming from. I saw his comments on landlords too and I even thought out a long reply disagreeing with him, but I didn’t post it (don’t know why really, probably because it was late already). I also don’t want my reply to be seen as a somewhat pro-landlord reply. I am 100% against landlords.
Maybe I am too kind for him. I try to look for chances in people and to me he did not seem lost or something, just in a bad place. But then again I have a lot of patience with people, sometimes maybe too much.
I still don’t fully agree on banning him but like I said, I’m not a mod/admin so I don’t have a say in that. It’s too bad because there were also good intentions from him, but I agree that he should also put in the effort to improve himself. We can only do so much. I hope he can adjust his visions and find some peace of mind.
Your “I didn’t post it” is exactly why I decided to go ahead and post even though I am waiting in the doctor’s office and was tempted to just not write anything lol. So thank you for taking my comment as it was intended. I just wanted to pushback on the consensus I saw forming in the comments with some of my thoughts, unformed as they are.
I definitely did not feel your reply was pro-landlord. My opinion is just that doomer+landlord apologist suggests a not very well thought out analysis.
I understand the being patient and kind I just think that when it is your responsibility to safeguard the community you see things a bit differently.
I can see merit to both sides of this conversation.
I guess to show all my cards this is just very personal for me because in several different ways I was a shitty person for a long time in my life. It took me a long time to change and a longer time for it to be obvious to an outside observer. I’m not a total idealist “all people can change!,” I know plenty of people IRL that if given the best resources that humanity has to offer for the remainder or their lifetime they would still likely be just the same, and the reality is people DON’T have the time nor such resources. But I try to repeatedly give people the benefit of the doubt and try really hard even when there is no surface level changes because I know how long it can take for something like that to manifest into positive change.
To be cold and pragmatic, “But is it worth the effort?” is also a reasonable question to ask, although it’s also hard to gauge somebody’s “worth” especially on the internet (not that I like thinking under such terms either).
Like I said, I can see both sides. I’m still not feeling about the ban but I’m not gonna throw a fit over it either and I respect whatever the final verdict is and the reasons behind it.
Yeah someone being abrasive and depressed doesn’t seem like a fair reason to ban them personally but i wont pretend to know the full story here.
Yes the doomerism is difficult especially when we’ve all got shit and maintaining good mental health is hard enough but I feel like if they were here then they were already better than 99% of reddit ideologically and would it not be remiss of us to help iron out the misunderstandings of ML and landlords etc and offer a less judgemental ear to their negativity? I know people being patient with me is how I became the person I am today.
I dunno, not sure I’d call this a “pro gamer move” but again I don’t know the details.
Ive been concerned about them for a while, imo a ban should only be leveled on someone who either is malicious in their intent, disrespectful and bigoted, or unapologetically anti-communist. This looks like a case of ignorance more than anything. This is the sort of ban I’d expect on Reddit, not here.
I think more effort should have be made to help and uplift comrades in these situations. I can appreciate how abrasive they were and when people are trying to help that can get tiring quickly especially when everyone’s got their own problems but still it doesn’t feel right to 86 someone who clearly isn’t in a good place.
I think for those tired out with it the M.O. should be simply to ignore it. Let those with less arduous days who still have some mental and emotional energy to spare take care of it. I also know that negativity is exhausting but how rewarding it can be to help someone up, and that it takes repetitive hard work.
Agreed, there in lies the strength of community!
Yeah, maybe some sort of temporary ban type deal or “time out” (something less infantilizing sounding of course) if someone is being particularly belligerent, a way to take 5 and step away and clear one’s head of need be, I think such a thing could definitely have its uses.
Yes I’m totally open to simply not knowing the full story.
And yes exactly, I know it was also through kindness patience good reasoning and good presentation that I am now epic Dengist POS wumao scheduled to commit suicide by 20 bullets to the back of the head.
Yeah sometimes knowing someone’s story can help other empathise but I’d like to be able to not need that context to be invested in someone’s wellbeing.
I’m still waiting on my goddamn Xi bucks 😤😤😤
BROTHER XIIIIII MY RENT IS DUEEEEE
Please Xi, liberate my country from the yoke of capitalism before rent day!
I’m very conflicted on his ban. I always felt suspicious seeing his post history. It seemed that he was always either deliberately trying to get attention by making controversial statements, or he was genuinely depressed and needed someplace to express himself.
The landlord take was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back. He was already constantly spreading pessimism and doomerist attitude, and it could be argued that it may have been an attempt at infiltrating and bringing down morale or something.
I’m just worried that if he wasn’t acting in bad faith we’ve just taken away an outlet of expression from someone who was in a really bad place and may have nowhere else to go.
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Well, that is true, although banning them for voicing their (definitely flawed) opinion doesn’t really help anyone. Those of us who know better won’t be turned into landlord apologists, and those who don’t would learn why that opinion is flawed by reading the responses from better informed users. If they were combative or disrespectful then a ban is completely warranted, but from what I can see this was not the case.
“I’m just worried that if he wasn’t acting in bad faith we’ve just taken away an outlet of expression from someone who was in a really bad place and may have nowhere else to go.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Edit: ffs my spelling is shit
Yes that’s my exact worry. I figured severely depressed was the case, and of course need for some attention plays into that, they self professed being very lonely and we all need some human attention (even if it sometimes manifests in bad ways). I don’t think bad faith per se, definitely a little addicted to the doomerism but depression is a very powerful self replicating force than can turn logic upside down and ruin a day no matter what you do, I myself used to be severely depressed so I relate hard to “the Fog” as I call it and how it can make efforts to help you bounce off like spitballs.
The mod who banned them is a reddit mod who wasn’t actively moderating this sub until recently. I think they reacted to the landlord comment in isolation without checking their post history. Should unban them asap imo.
Where can you see who banned him?
Modlog in ‘lemmur’ android app. The website hides it to prevent targeted harrasment of mods.
Right, thanks!
If that is the case I hope both ZG can be unbanned and the mod isn’t chastised either, I totally could understand the Reddit PTSD lol
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Okay I chuckled
The reason given in the modlog is “landlord apologist” so I dont think you missed anything
I dont know what happened but I think I agree with you, would be nice some context.
It’s his cake day as well, that’s one hell of a present.
Ugh can we leave stupid reddit-isms like cake day behind? It’s so dumb.
I just found the coincidence kind of strange, but you’re right, the similarity with reddit’s system is unnecessary and derivative. We should come up with something else.
Bruhhh i think the mods fucked up hard here.
It’s just a ban for /c/GenZedong, right? The sidebar does say “we are Marxist-Leninists”, so as long as they can still post on other Lemmygrad communities, I think it’s mostly reasonable.
I don’t think someone from other instance can be banned from lemmy as a whole. Maybe they’re banned from lemmygrad or probably just the GenZedong community.
Right, I meant rather than all of Lemmygrad. /u/ksynwa confirmed it’s only for this community
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It’s not s site wide ban
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(+ assuming that the ban can be reversed eventually)
The ban being able to be reversed would also change my mind a lot.
Eesh, i look at this when it happened. I dont think he is discussing in bad faith but genuinely confused as by why we wanted to ‘genocide’ all landlords.
Owning a flat to rent out is in some places pretty common, how it goes is something like this; often the parents will help their son/daughter to buy their first flat, because they cant on their own. Ex. To low income as students etc. The young will pay down the loan trough their parents, as to not just ‘waste’ it on normal rent.
When the flat is owned and the young student is ready for marriage/job they dont sell it, they move to a another place with their family and rent out the student flat to help pay down their new mortgage. When i was i school, several students had this or very similar things happen to them and tbh, i dont see them as evil. They are indeed blindly following traditions/taking goverment incentives to promote self ownership and to become financially independent from their parents.
The problem with citing these mom and pop landords is that they are a tiny minority in the land holding class and are used as a technicality to derail the conversation.
Obviously if someone says redact the landlords, it is not meant that literally every single person who has rented out land will be redacted.
The mom and pop landlords are used to distract from that fact in most capitalist countries, the land distribution is highly unequitable and billions are made by a few by the way of renting out owned properties. Using one of these as an example to go to “most landowners are working class” is a giant leap in logic. Then it is topped off by a nihilistic “there is no ethical consumption under capitalism”.
I mean there is no ethical consumption under capitalism tho.
Which is why we need to hang the billionaires and politicians and build socialism instead.
Thank you for a good reply. But, i dont agree with the premise that these types of landlords are such a minority that it can be ignored by calling them a «technicality to derail the conversation».
I belive the ratio of how many rentals the general landowner own is corresponding with the general wealth. The higher the more rentals.
What Zero said was
I don’t think they should get the same treatment as a capitalist owning 965 houses from inheritance and the exploitation of workers
And as yourself just said
it is not meant that literally every single person who has rented out land will be redacted.
Imo we are all agreeing that not all landowners should face the wall. It can be more nuanced than that and its important to explain these things. They certainly wont learn it in school.
Maybe he is speaking from personal experiences when he said «most landowners are working class», maybe he is young. Anyway, in general its better to try to teach people, especially when they already show great interest for the same ideas as us.
And lets be real; there is no ethical consumption under capitalism 😄
The reason I brought “there is no ethical consumption under capitalism” is that one cannot just say that to justify anything willy nilly. It is one thing, for example, to drive to work in a car because the urban planning of a capitalist system compels you but it is something to own a property, charge someone a significant portion of their monthly income to allow them live in it, and evict them if they are unable to pay rent.
I agree with mostly everything. The only thing i disagree with is, i think you are painting it very black and white. Not every landlord will «charge a significant portion of their monthly income to allow them live in it, and evict them if they are unable to pay rent.» and its necessary to be exact when talking about this. We dont want to be seen as merciless thugs.
A landlord today can by defition include a single parent full of debt, working 2-3 minimum wage jobs for some billionare while ‘renting out’ a bedroom to her son and his girlfriend that they pay with some goverment program or student loan, to some billionare with hundreds of inherited rental properties. Its alot of people in between.
You mean renting out a room in the home she lives in to her own son to get some grant from the government?
Yes, as an example. If she owns the house, she can by definition also be her own sons landlord if he is over 18 and are eligible for some kind of grant/benefits.
That’s not what anyone has in mind when they speak of landlord as a class.
oh shit we’re doing purges now
Trotsky moment 😁
Something was always fishy about him.
