Edit: Well, as horrifying as it is to see how shallow folks understanding of history is, no one is paying me to be online and screaming against tiktok or whatever isn’t that much fun. G’night y’all!
Unpopular opinion but do folks honestly not understand how those borders shifted? Mostly because a bunch of countries tried to murder the Jews and yeah, Israel took part of their land in the counter offensives.
If Ukraine kept Kursk, I can’t imagine we’d really be complaining?
Basically, if you launch a surprise war I think you forfeit the right to be surprised or angry when your land gets taken.
Edit: Jesus, are the downvoters confused like the response below and think this is talking about Oct 7 as opposed to say, the repeated wars that actually changed the borders? Does TikTok not cover modern history or what?
“Unpopular opinion but do folks honestly not understand how those borders shifted? Mostly because a bunch of countries tried to murder the Jews”
You can’t genuinely be this conceited. How about Israel’s “independence” which was a massive ethnic cleansing done by Jewish terrorists who were all non native from Europe and would avoid native Palestinan Jews because they found them “too weak” David Ben gurion the founder of Israeli was apart of it and was well aware what he was doing was colonisation.
The stern gang and lehi group then became Israels army and government, with their teaching still very in place.
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine#%3A~%3Atext=The+main+terrorist+groups+were%2CFreedom+of+Israel)%20or%20LHI.)%20or%20LH
It’s ironic how you use this projection about others getting their info from tiktok when come unsourced, arrogant and wrong, it’s impossible not to think you are brainwashed or an awful human being and uneducated. All of this is to say, Israel has a clear greater Israel plan even literally showing a map of Israel pre Oct 7 of them owning west bank and Gaza
https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map
Yeah, you don’t deserve the downvotes (IMO). The article is referencing border changes since Israel’s inception. It’s a lot more complicated than Gaza and Oct. 7th.
Mostly because a bunch of countries tried to murder the Jews and yeah, Israel took part of their land in the counter offensives.
Either your ignoring Israeli history older than the babies shot in Gaza, in which case you should finish your studies, or you think this applies throughout Israeli history, in which case you should start your studies.
This is if you view the Arab states as the aggressor in 1967 even though Israel was the one who initiated the conflict. If you see Israel as the aggressor in 1967 and the yom kipper war as a counter offensive to take back land that Israel had stolen then it becomes less justifiable.
It’s more like Russia keeping the Donbas after it launched a “preemptive strike” because it was afraid Ukraine was gonna team up with nato to attack them. Then 5 years after trump forces Ukraine to make peace they launch an offensive into the donbas to take there land back, only to get repelled again.
Sorry, missed this amongst a few less knowledgeable replies.
Generally, I understand the Arab states as the aggressor in that.
The Israeli attack was a first strike but happened with multiple armies deployed along its borders.
It’s been awhile since I read about that war but my memory is that someone (Egypt?) cut off a Israel’s access to a major maritime route. Israel reiterated its decade long position that such an act was grounds for war. In other words saying “if you do this, we consider a war to have begun.”
The Arab states deploy troops and units along multiple Israeli borders. A quick look at total troops available to the new Arab defence pact suggest they outmanned Israel’s by almost 2:1, with more than 2:1 and 3:1 advantage in aircraft and tanks respectively. (I admittedly I have no memory of quality of those forces.)
The destruction of the Egyptian airforce is pretty famous in military history and based on those facts, I’ve always felt the Arab states as the aggressor in that one.
What parts or acts, other than the act of existing, am I ignorant of or misremembering that make Israel the aggressor?
What parts or acts, other than the act of existing, am I ignorant of or misremembering that make Israel the aggressor?
The fact that they struck first. Closing a maritime route is not a cause for war just because someone says it is, just like Ukraine applying for nato wouldn’t be. Any action done by a country within its own borders is up to them, that’s sovereignty. Saying those acts are a cause for war and invading them for doing so is a violation of that sovereignty.
Almost every invader in history claims their attack was a pre-emptive strike and/or the other countries legitimate peaceful sovereign actions are a cause for war. Japan told the u.s. if it continued its oil embargo that it would be a cause for war. The u.s. continuing that embargo doesn’t make pearl harbor a legitimate response. Poland began massing troops on the border prior to the nazi invasion, that doesn’t make them the agressor.
The Arab states had done nothing that broke the peace prior to the war. They cut off maritime access through a strait completely within their territory and then massed troops on the border of a state that had invaded one of its neighbor a decade ago and was threatening to do so again.
There’s a reason the UN doesn’t recognize preemptive attacks, they’re just excuses for aggressors to invade.
Mostly because a bunch of countries tried to murder the Jews and yeah, Israel took part of their land in the counter offensives
There’s that then-Israeli PM’s statement about how Israel knew Egypt and Syria weren’t going to start a war and yet attacked anyway, you can look it up.
I take it you have 0 knowledge of the Six Day or Yom Kippur wars? Which is how the borders in the headlines moved. I mean, heck, a lot of recent maps of Israel show in which war the territory was taken.
I kinda guessed folks were ignorant of the history but come on, this is pretty basic stuff.
Initially they only had land that they legally bought. When they declared themself as a state, the surrounding countries declared war on them, and they turned the tide in this (initially defensive) war and actually gained territory.
Not defending what they’re doing today, but history shouldn’t be twisted.
Not only from the Brits but also from landlords down there. The issue: The landlords weren’t the ones who lived there (mostly nomadic people lived there who didn’t own any land but had been using the land for generations).
I mean, Israel was taken from the Jews way back when so by your logic, aren’t they just taking back their land and thus, apparently according to you, allowed to do whatever?
Lemmy is anti Israel at best and absurdly anti semitic at worst. Palestine is schrodinger’s country. It exists at the 47 borders, despite the inhabitants at the time rejecting those borders and losing several wars about it.
lol at the people downvoting you. While other people in this thread argue that Israel should not exist. With the heavy implication certain people living in that territory should also stop existing.
Then you should work on your reading comprehension. Saying a state shouldn’t exist is different from saying certain people shouldn’t exist. This is not implied at all.
Based on my past conversations about this topic and the kind of people who say that.
“Israel should not exist” begs the following questions.
Who rules the area now? What form of government will be established? Which of the ethnic groups (that hate each other) are going to form that government? What happens to people deemed ‘colonizers’ and other minorities living there?
Who did you have such conversations with? People who hate Israel because they colonised Palestinian territory, or actual anti-semites? In the latter case, I can see how you would come to that conclusion, but in my experience, most people (at least on Lemmy) are part of the first group, who have no intention to kill everyone in Israel.
Regarding the questions, this is something both the Israelis and (more importantly) the Palestinians need to talk about to find the best solution for everyone involved. But they can all be answered without “Kill all the people living in Israel”.
Edit: Well, as horrifying as it is to see how shallow folks understanding of history is, no one is paying me to be online and screaming against tiktok or whatever isn’t that much fun. G’night y’all!
Unpopular opinion but do folks honestly not understand how those borders shifted? Mostly because a bunch of countries tried to murder the Jews and yeah, Israel took part of their land in the counter offensives.
If Ukraine kept Kursk, I can’t imagine we’d really be complaining?
Basically, if you launch a surprise war I think you forfeit the right to be surprised or angry when your land gets taken.
Edit: Jesus, are the downvoters confused like the response below and think this is talking about Oct 7 as opposed to say, the repeated wars that actually changed the borders? Does TikTok not cover modern history or what?
“Unpopular opinion but do folks honestly not understand how those borders shifted? Mostly because a bunch of countries tried to murder the Jews” You can’t genuinely be this conceited. How about Israel’s “independence” which was a massive ethnic cleansing done by Jewish terrorists who were all non native from Europe and would avoid native Palestinan Jews because they found them “too weak” David Ben gurion the founder of Israeli was apart of it and was well aware what he was doing was colonisation. The stern gang and lehi group then became Israels army and government, with their teaching still very in place. https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine#%3A~%3Atext=The+main+terrorist+groups+were%2CFreedom+of+Israel)%20or%20LHI.)%20or%20LH
https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/
It’s ironic how you use this projection about others getting their info from tiktok when come unsourced, arrogant and wrong, it’s impossible not to think you are brainwashed or an awful human being and uneducated. All of this is to say, Israel has a clear greater Israel plan even literally showing a map of Israel pre Oct 7 of them owning west bank and Gaza https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map
So suprise suprise when Israeli leaders talk about “claiming greater Israel” we gotta fight back and dismantle that nation. You and you’re people oppressed the Jews for 2 thousand years, to the middle east in 1930s the Jews were colonisers no different to the Brits acting with imperialist intentions with Israel capitalising on the holocaust to form some special protected minority status no other people on earth have even tho the Jews are ABSOLUTELY not the most victimised people in the planet or even they era of history. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241120-smotrich-has-confirmed-that-the-quest-for-greater-israel-is-real/ https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-paper-op-ed-claims-south-lebanon-northern-israel?amp
Yeah, you don’t deserve the downvotes (IMO). The article is referencing border changes since Israel’s inception. It’s a lot more complicated than Gaza and Oct. 7th.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-borders-history-syria-gaza-war-golan-5fdf8fdbe2ec2cee7b9cf7f78fbb1c8c
I appreciate that! Honestly, it’s a little worrying how little historical context folks seem to have.
Don’t know why I feel compelled to point it out other than being a glutton for punishment.
Anyway, thanks!
Either your ignoring Israeli history older than the babies shot in Gaza, in which case you should finish your studies, or you think this applies throughout Israeli history, in which case you should start your studies.
What on Earth?
When do you think the Six Day or Yom Kippur wars happened?
This is if you view the Arab states as the aggressor in 1967 even though Israel was the one who initiated the conflict. If you see Israel as the aggressor in 1967 and the yom kipper war as a counter offensive to take back land that Israel had stolen then it becomes less justifiable.
It’s more like Russia keeping the Donbas after it launched a “preemptive strike” because it was afraid Ukraine was gonna team up with nato to attack them. Then 5 years after trump forces Ukraine to make peace they launch an offensive into the donbas to take there land back, only to get repelled again.
Sorry, missed this amongst a few less knowledgeable replies.
Generally, I understand the Arab states as the aggressor in that.
The Israeli attack was a first strike but happened with multiple armies deployed along its borders.
It’s been awhile since I read about that war but my memory is that someone (Egypt?) cut off a Israel’s access to a major maritime route. Israel reiterated its decade long position that such an act was grounds for war. In other words saying “if you do this, we consider a war to have begun.”
The Arab states deploy troops and units along multiple Israeli borders. A quick look at total troops available to the new Arab defence pact suggest they outmanned Israel’s by almost 2:1, with more than 2:1 and 3:1 advantage in aircraft and tanks respectively. (I admittedly I have no memory of quality of those forces.)
The destruction of the Egyptian airforce is pretty famous in military history and based on those facts, I’ve always felt the Arab states as the aggressor in that one.
What parts or acts, other than the act of existing, am I ignorant of or misremembering that make Israel the aggressor?
The fact that they struck first. Closing a maritime route is not a cause for war just because someone says it is, just like Ukraine applying for nato wouldn’t be. Any action done by a country within its own borders is up to them, that’s sovereignty. Saying those acts are a cause for war and invading them for doing so is a violation of that sovereignty.
Almost every invader in history claims their attack was a pre-emptive strike and/or the other countries legitimate peaceful sovereign actions are a cause for war. Japan told the u.s. if it continued its oil embargo that it would be a cause for war. The u.s. continuing that embargo doesn’t make pearl harbor a legitimate response. Poland began massing troops on the border prior to the nazi invasion, that doesn’t make them the agressor.
The Arab states had done nothing that broke the peace prior to the war. They cut off maritime access through a strait completely within their territory and then massed troops on the border of a state that had invaded one of its neighbor a decade ago and was threatening to do so again.
There’s a reason the UN doesn’t recognize preemptive attacks, they’re just excuses for aggressors to invade.
There’s that then-Israeli PM’s statement about how Israel knew Egypt and Syria weren’t going to start a war and yet attacked anyway, you can look it up.
Last comment didn’t go over well with moderators. To be more polite, I have you tagged as someone with whom it is not worthwhile to engage.
Regards.
Removed by mod
How the fuck can a population that you’re killing and stealing the land from start a SURPRISE war?
I take it you have 0 knowledge of the Six Day or Yom Kippur wars? Which is how the borders in the headlines moved. I mean, heck, a lot of recent maps of Israel show in which war the territory was taken.
I kinda guessed folks were ignorant of the history but come on, this is pretty basic stuff.
The existence of Israel as a settler-colonial entity nullifies any argument that any resistance in the area can be a “surprise”.
It shouldn’t exist. It is all stolen land that they are continuing to steal.
You’re right, we should give the whole area back to the Romans.
Initially they only had land that they legally bought. When they declared themself as a state, the surrounding countries declared war on them, and they turned the tide in this (initially defensive) war and actually gained territory.
Not defending what they’re doing today, but history shouldn’t be twisted.
Legally bought from the brits. If somebody takes your house at gunpoint and sell it to me, it’s still not mine.
Not only from the Brits but also from landlords down there. The issue: The landlords weren’t the ones who lived there (mostly nomadic people lived there who didn’t own any land but had been using the land for generations).
Absentee landlord was a cornerstone of british colonial system. They did the same to ireland
I mean, Israel was taken from the Jews way back when so by your logic, aren’t they just taking back their land and thus, apparently according to you, allowed to do whatever?
Lemmy is anti Israel at best and absurdly anti semitic at worst. Palestine is schrodinger’s country. It exists at the 47 borders, despite the inhabitants at the time rejecting those borders and losing several wars about it.
lol at the people downvoting you. While other people in this thread argue that Israel should not exist. With the heavy implication certain people living in that territory should also stop existing.
Then you should work on your reading comprehension. Saying a state shouldn’t exist is different from saying certain people shouldn’t exist. This is not implied at all.
Based on my past conversations about this topic and the kind of people who say that.
“Israel should not exist” begs the following questions.
Who rules the area now? What form of government will be established? Which of the ethnic groups (that hate each other) are going to form that government? What happens to people deemed ‘colonizers’ and other minorities living there?
Who did you have such conversations with? People who hate Israel because they colonised Palestinian territory, or actual anti-semites? In the latter case, I can see how you would come to that conclusion, but in my experience, most people (at least on Lemmy) are part of the first group, who have no intention to kill everyone in Israel.
Regarding the questions, this is something both the Israelis and (more importantly) the Palestinians need to talk about to find the best solution for everyone involved. But they can all be answered without “Kill all the people living in Israel”.