@SaddamHusein24 I think you have a small misunderstanding. The patriotism of actual Marxists, dare I say even in America, should be upheld - and I mean the patriotism of wanting your country to be destroyed and reborn as Lenin said, and to flourish for all the American people. The genuine belief that the American worker should be supported and treated fairly, regardless of minority grouping, and that they deserve better is a great thing!
The “patriotism” of “PatSocs” is vastly different. PatSocs are a very specific reactionary group with specific views here in the west. They believe that we should all hunker down and throw away the “liberal wokeness that is internationalism” and put trans people in gulgas since they’re “lib degenerates” and that’s what Stalin would have wanted. It’s reactionary position not based on any real material analysis, and as such, should be combated.
The “patriotism” of “PatSocs” is vastly different. PatSocs are a very specific reactionary group with specific views here in the west.
But thy the fuck everything the anti-“patsocs” did up to date was to make the word “patriotism” haram in almost every communist space despite knowing what you said in the first paragraph yourself?
At best it’s american exceptionalism in the wild ride, and at worst an op to sow mistrust between american communists and all others. And Lemmy is still infinite better than reddit where even Genzedong banned people for even attemping to discuss it.
Idk about those “specific reactionary group” “patsoc” guys, but if they are socialchauvinists, call them what they are. Will you start to call nazis “socialists” too, because it’s in the name?
The particular group of internet dweebs being critiqued call themselves patriotic socialists or socialist patriots. That’s just kinda how language works. You can’t change it any more than you can stop libs from calling MLs tankies.
So i was right at first and it’s just an youtube circlejerk… No wonder nobody could answer me when i asked for something concrete, where are the names or the organizations. And to think i was banned for that from GenZedong (at that point it was not much loss but still).
Wait. Wait wait wait wait. Does this mean the most of internet spaces for english speaking ML’s abandon one of the most successful weapons in the arsenal of proletariat, weapon which has been used with great effect since Lenin first formulated the theory of socialism in one country, because of a fucking kneejerk reaction to an YOUTUBE CIRCLEJERK?!?
I mean the problem is a bit bigger than that, as these things always find a way to leak into real life once money gets involved. Their “movement” magnetically attracts reactionary (often white) guys who think converting MAGA chuds by acting like conservatives counts as “organizing” (they’re trying to get something going irl but who knows where it will go), and is more important than reigning in syndicalists and trade unionists to a communist party platform that won’t immediately split on gender/race/religion/sexuality lines (which itself is difficult, but that is how activism in the US tends to manifest). They also really hate queer people and complain about us constantly, which honestly just feels like punching down.
So at this point in time, patsoc is linguistically equivalent to “reactionary white ML” to most socialists. Within the sphere of regular ML communities and organizing, the reaction to this reaction are attempts to learn from theories ultimately based in Gramsci’s work on Hegemony — such that we don’t repeat the mistakes of past movements by ignoring the needs of sections of the proletariat some might consider ‘inconvenient’. Arguments about patsocs seem to bring this topic to the forefront of discussion (so I think it might have a positive effect in the end). We really don’t want to alienate comrades of any walk of life, but patsocs don’t really care who they alienate as long as you’re using the correct “anti-imperialist” language that somehow includes American patriotism, and your strategy centers the needs of middle class white traditionalists. They talk a good game about internationalism but I’ve seen people with less staunchly purist views making more attempts at communicating with global socialist movements.
Massive bruh moment, this post section is giving me crazy, you and saddam hussain are the only people here seeing how dumb it is to create such an massive fight over fucking twitter/youtube drama/circlejerking.
Yes it does. Were they socialist? No. That’s why we aren’t calling them that. “Patsoc” used for a socialchauvinist is a wretched word, entirely giving away very important concept and castrating yourself.
It’s fine if american communist don’t want to use that word, even if a little misguided, as Lenin explained, but don’t push that as general rule, it’s american exceptionalism and it’s defeatism.
Again, “national socialism” is excellent example in yet another way. Just look at the history of the world after WW2. how many systems that could be easily name “national socialism” were there, but we can’t name them like this, because this term is forever lost, even despite it means something completely unrelated to socialism. Don’t lose more ground, class war is going here too.
I will be respectful since you are too and i appreciate that. This is simply false. The most famous “patsoc”, Caleb Maupin, who i have followed for months now, is not what you say. He is antiracist, internationalist, antiimperialist, pro LGBTQ, pro abortion and antibigot. The dude organized trans rights marches with Mariela Castro once in his activist days. He was an activist in the Workers World Party for 8 years. He has always been outspoken about this. I have never heard any “patsocs” say the things you are saying. Not even Infrared, who i guess is closest to that in identity politics at least, has ever gone this far. And besides most “patsocs” are like Maupin, not like Infrared. This is a mythology cultivated by Vaush type people, its not a reality.
First of all, Stalin lived 80 years ago and illegalizing homosexuality is regarded as one of his mistakes. Second of all, believe it or not, being a communist party doesn’t automatically grant you the based pass. КПРФ is the living proof. I’m not saying that there aren’t socially progressive factions or that everyone there is reactionary but the party leadership mostly is. Third of all, don’t be a class reductionist. Reactionary views such as homophobia and transphobia are not gonna disappear just because class struggle is over, they have to be dealt with independently and should be dealt with now. And to your “division”. If someone has problem with LGBTQ+ movement chances are they are not gonna be a fucking communist. In post-communist countries people like this are just conservative boomers that associate their reactionary values with the former socialist republics. So no, not tolerating homophobes is not gonna divide and collapse the entire communist movement.
Oh yeah, because social liberalism is 100% associated with communism and antiimperialism. Look at Biden bro, he has a bisexual black woman as White House spokesperson, hes the best communist ever right?
/s
You yankees are really dumb as fuck. Ive tried explaining respectfully but you refuse to listen, basically saying that only socially liberal workers deserve your solidarity, literally neglecting your entire rural population. When did Lenin or Stalin or Mao or Castro or any of them ever say “you can only follow us if you agree with our social values on abortion and gay people”? NEVER. They said “if you want peace land and bread, follow us”. They never said any of this stupid gatekeeping shit. But hey, go ahead, continue this path, its done a lot of good to you so far, when QAnon nutbags have more effective organizing than you do. Keep it up, we, the rest of the world, we dont care anymore. Thankfully the US is more and more irrelevant by the day, so we dont have to trust our safety from imperialism into the hands of stupid western leftists who reject the most basic notions of worker solidarity and class struggle.
I’ve seen this many times in this thread, why do you assume everyone is American ? Also, if one is a homophobe I don’t really care as long as they keep it to themselves. But tolerating someone who tries to push back LGBTQ+ rights and giving them a chance to do so just because they are a communist is a really bad thing.
Also, if one is a homophobe I don’t really care as long as they keep it to themselves.
But tolerating someone who tries to push back LGBTQ+ rights and giving them a chance to do so just because they are a communist is a really bad thing.
Bruh pick one, or you tolerate or you dont, this is very hypocritical, the Maupin tweet you showed is literally saying “i dont support what you are saying on this, but i still will fight by your side” how is this different from “Also, if one is a homophobe I don’t really care as long as they keep it to themselves.”?
You can’t really force people not to be homophobic. You can stop them from presenting their reactionary views, explain why they are wrong, but if they are a stubborn homophobe you will just have to let them be. I don’t tolerate homophobic people, I would not associate myself with homophobic people. The difference is that you should do everything you can do to prevent them from being homophobic and spreading their shitty bigotry but there is only so much you can do.
I assume everyone is a yank because they tend to be the most disconnected from the real world, stuck in their american fantasy bubble, so i tend to hit, guess this time i missed. So why all this arguing? The “outrageous” tweet by Maupin says “i disagree with you if you dont support gay marriage or abortion, but i will fight by your side”, literally what you are repeating now. Maupin never said bigotry should be tolerated, all he said is specific views on social issues should be. Noone saying here that we should be ok with people beating up gay people in communist groups, noone ever said this, including Caleb. The issue is people that for religion or other reason oppose abortion or gay marriage, thats it, thats what the tweet says. This is what most conservative workers in USA are like i imagine, they dont hate gay people, they just think gay marriage is wrong. Sure there is some homophobia deep down, but its a totally different thing from despicable hate crimes. But somehow saying this is so controversial. I hope you agree with me now.
Maupin never said bigotry should be tolerated, all he said is specific views on social issues should be
How do you deal with the paradox of tolerance, specifically, how does an entire revolutionary movement that seeks to reorganize society tolerate intolerance? Even more specifically, how you build a sustainable revolutionary society that is tolerant of the opinion that minority groups should be oppressed if society cannot survive if it actively oppresses minority groups?
Tolerating anti-gay-marriage positions is tantamount to saying “I know that you want to stop others from living their life in fundamentally legalistic ways, but that’s OK, you can still be part of our group that intends to rewrite the laws”
Homophobia isn’t a moral failing, it’s a legal one. No one cares what you believe in your private spaces. What matters is that we cannot build a sustainable revolutionary society if we tolerate intolerance in our vanguard.
Stalin banned abortion and promoted quite traditionalist family ideas about 100 years ago in a completely different context.
Class issues are obviously central to marxism, but the liberation of women, people of color, and the lgbtq+ community are all central to socialist project too.
Yes, and? My point isnt that we should ban abortion, we shouldnt. My point is that Stalin is still a Comrade, and so are people who might be against abortion for religious views or otherwise. Simple.
The woman question is an indispensable facet of Marxist-Leninism and tossing it to the side as an issue delegated to mere identity politics or wokescolding or whatever is anti-Marxist male chauvinism of the highest order. I used to consider your points on the question but you’ve pretty much just outed yourself as a chauvinist.
You miss the point. We aren’t barely post monarchy soviet Russia.
Saying you’ll tolerate or GIVE POWER to anyone with ambitions to curtail such issues is literally asking those who are being oppressed to tolerate, allow, and GIVE POWER to such actors.
It does not do to have proletarian bigots just be allowed to go open season on their reactionary imaginations.
Shame is used in this sense BECAUSE ONE SHOULD KNOW BETTER ABOUT AT LEAST A 50 YEAR OLD ISSUE.
If a working class person has some irreconcilable bigotry that they can not or will not unlearn; it is quite simple. You prevent them from wielding any office or lever of power that will enable them to act on that.
There is no post America socialist society on Turtle Rock that bans abortion or entertains racial segregation or essentializes gender.
Jesus Christ. The wokescolds arent the enemy. They’re a bunch of progressives and minorities with a bigger voice now because of the miracle of the internet.
Yeah. We get it. All the three letter agencies are promoting the new rainbow hotness. Guess who else notices it? The IdPol folks.
If that’s true, that is good and valid. I will kindly say that again, that even if you call yourself a “patsoc” but practice marxist-patriotism, as you state that Caleb does (sorry I don’t know anything about them) - nothing wrong with that.
However, there is at least a reactionary group bearing that name, that a lot of people, myself including, have had vastly negative reactionary interactions with.
@SaddamHusein24 I think you have a small misunderstanding. The patriotism of actual Marxists, dare I say even in America, should be upheld - and I mean the patriotism of wanting your country to be destroyed and reborn as Lenin said, and to flourish for all the American people. The genuine belief that the American worker should be supported and treated fairly, regardless of minority grouping, and that they deserve better is a great thing!
The “patriotism” of “PatSocs” is vastly different. PatSocs are a very specific reactionary group with specific views here in the west. They believe that we should all hunker down and throw away the “liberal wokeness that is internationalism” and put trans people in gulgas since they’re “lib degenerates” and that’s what Stalin would have wanted. It’s reactionary position not based on any real material analysis, and as such, should be combated.
But thy the fuck everything the anti-“patsocs” did up to date was to make the word “patriotism” haram in almost every communist space despite knowing what you said in the first paragraph yourself?
At best it’s american exceptionalism in the wild ride, and at worst an op to sow mistrust between american communists and all others. And Lemmy is still infinite better than reddit where even Genzedong banned people for even attemping to discuss it.
Idk about those “specific reactionary group” “patsoc” guys, but if they are socialchauvinists, call them what they are. Will you start to call nazis “socialists” too, because it’s in the name?
The particular group of internet dweebs being critiqued call themselves patriotic socialists or socialist patriots. That’s just kinda how language works. You can’t change it any more than you can stop libs from calling MLs tankies.
Plus there’s more than one kind of chauvinism.
So i was right at first and it’s just an youtube circlejerk… No wonder nobody could answer me when i asked for something concrete, where are the names or the organizations. And to think i was banned for that from GenZedong (at that point it was not much loss but still).
Wait. Wait wait wait wait. Does this mean the most of internet spaces for english speaking ML’s abandon one of the most successful weapons in the arsenal of proletariat, weapon which has been used with great effect since Lenin first formulated the theory of socialism in one country, because of a fucking kneejerk reaction to an YOUTUBE CIRCLEJERK?!?
I mean the problem is a bit bigger than that, as these things always find a way to leak into real life once money gets involved. Their “movement” magnetically attracts reactionary (often white) guys who think converting MAGA chuds by acting like conservatives counts as “organizing” (they’re trying to get something going irl but who knows where it will go), and is more important than reigning in syndicalists and trade unionists to a communist party platform that won’t immediately split on gender/race/religion/sexuality lines (which itself is difficult, but that is how activism in the US tends to manifest). They also really hate queer people and complain about us constantly, which honestly just feels like punching down.
So at this point in time, patsoc is linguistically equivalent to “reactionary white ML” to most socialists. Within the sphere of regular ML communities and organizing, the reaction to this reaction are attempts to learn from theories ultimately based in Gramsci’s work on Hegemony — such that we don’t repeat the mistakes of past movements by ignoring the needs of sections of the proletariat some might consider ‘inconvenient’. Arguments about patsocs seem to bring this topic to the forefront of discussion (so I think it might have a positive effect in the end). We really don’t want to alienate comrades of any walk of life, but patsocs don’t really care who they alienate as long as you’re using the correct “anti-imperialist” language that somehow includes American patriotism, and your strategy centers the needs of middle class white traditionalists. They talk a good game about internationalism but I’ve seen people with less staunchly purist views making more attempts at communicating with global socialist movements.
Massive bruh moment, this post section is giving me crazy, you and saddam hussain are the only people here seeing how dumb it is to create such an massive fight over fucking twitter/youtube drama/circlejerking.
You are absolutely correct
Comrade Poland always coming to rescue me! O7
Doesn’t the word Nazi come from their name Nationalsozialist?
Yes it does. Were they socialist? No. That’s why we aren’t calling them that. “Patsoc” used for a socialchauvinist is a wretched word, entirely giving away very important concept and castrating yourself.
It’s fine if american communist don’t want to use that word, even if a little misguided, as Lenin explained, but don’t push that as general rule, it’s american exceptionalism and it’s defeatism.
Again, “national socialism” is excellent example in yet another way. Just look at the history of the world after WW2. how many systems that could be easily name “national socialism” were there, but we can’t name them like this, because this term is forever lost, even despite it means something completely unrelated to socialism. Don’t lose more ground, class war is going here too.
I’m just being pedantic, I think you have a good point with “social chauvinist”.
I will be respectful since you are too and i appreciate that. This is simply false. The most famous “patsoc”, Caleb Maupin, who i have followed for months now, is not what you say. He is antiracist, internationalist, antiimperialist, pro LGBTQ, pro abortion and antibigot. The dude organized trans rights marches with Mariela Castro once in his activist days. He was an activist in the Workers World Party for 8 years. He has always been outspoken about this. I have never heard any “patsocs” say the things you are saying. Not even Infrared, who i guess is closest to that in identity politics at least, has ever gone this far. And besides most “patsocs” are like Maupin, not like Infrared. This is a mythology cultivated by Vaush type people, its not a reality.
This him ?
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First of all, Stalin lived 80 years ago and illegalizing homosexuality is regarded as one of his mistakes. Second of all, believe it or not, being a communist party doesn’t automatically grant you the based pass. КПРФ is the living proof. I’m not saying that there aren’t socially progressive factions or that everyone there is reactionary but the party leadership mostly is. Third of all, don’t be a class reductionist. Reactionary views such as homophobia and transphobia are not gonna disappear just because class struggle is over, they have to be dealt with independently and should be dealt with now. And to your “division”. If someone has problem with LGBTQ+ movement chances are they are not gonna be a fucking communist. In post-communist countries people like this are just conservative boomers that associate their reactionary values with the former socialist republics. So no, not tolerating homophobes is not gonna divide and collapse the entire communist movement.
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Now damnit. Was it Mao or Sankara that said this?
Oh yeah, because social liberalism is 100% associated with communism and antiimperialism. Look at Biden bro, he has a bisexual black woman as White House spokesperson, hes the best communist ever right? /s
You yankees are really dumb as fuck. Ive tried explaining respectfully but you refuse to listen, basically saying that only socially liberal workers deserve your solidarity, literally neglecting your entire rural population. When did Lenin or Stalin or Mao or Castro or any of them ever say “you can only follow us if you agree with our social values on abortion and gay people”? NEVER. They said “if you want peace land and bread, follow us”. They never said any of this stupid gatekeeping shit. But hey, go ahead, continue this path, its done a lot of good to you so far, when QAnon nutbags have more effective organizing than you do. Keep it up, we, the rest of the world, we dont care anymore. Thankfully the US is more and more irrelevant by the day, so we dont have to trust our safety from imperialism into the hands of stupid western leftists who reject the most basic notions of worker solidarity and class struggle.
I’ve seen this many times in this thread, why do you assume everyone is American ? Also, if one is a homophobe I don’t really care as long as they keep it to themselves. But tolerating someone who tries to push back LGBTQ+ rights and giving them a chance to do so just because they are a communist is a really bad thing.
Bruh pick one, or you tolerate or you dont, this is very hypocritical, the Maupin tweet you showed is literally saying “i dont support what you are saying on this, but i still will fight by your side” how is this different from “Also, if one is a homophobe I don’t really care as long as they keep it to themselves.”?
You can’t really force people not to be homophobic. You can stop them from presenting their reactionary views, explain why they are wrong, but if they are a stubborn homophobe you will just have to let them be. I don’t tolerate homophobic people, I would not associate myself with homophobic people. The difference is that you should do everything you can do to prevent them from being homophobic and spreading their shitty bigotry but there is only so much you can do.
I assume everyone is a yank because they tend to be the most disconnected from the real world, stuck in their american fantasy bubble, so i tend to hit, guess this time i missed. So why all this arguing? The “outrageous” tweet by Maupin says “i disagree with you if you dont support gay marriage or abortion, but i will fight by your side”, literally what you are repeating now. Maupin never said bigotry should be tolerated, all he said is specific views on social issues should be. Noone saying here that we should be ok with people beating up gay people in communist groups, noone ever said this, including Caleb. The issue is people that for religion or other reason oppose abortion or gay marriage, thats it, thats what the tweet says. This is what most conservative workers in USA are like i imagine, they dont hate gay people, they just think gay marriage is wrong. Sure there is some homophobia deep down, but its a totally different thing from despicable hate crimes. But somehow saying this is so controversial. I hope you agree with me now.
How do you deal with the paradox of tolerance, specifically, how does an entire revolutionary movement that seeks to reorganize society tolerate intolerance? Even more specifically, how you build a sustainable revolutionary society that is tolerant of the opinion that minority groups should be oppressed if society cannot survive if it actively oppresses minority groups?
Tolerating anti-gay-marriage positions is tantamount to saying “I know that you want to stop others from living their life in fundamentally legalistic ways, but that’s OK, you can still be part of our group that intends to rewrite the laws”
Homophobia isn’t a moral failing, it’s a legal one. No one cares what you believe in your private spaces. What matters is that we cannot build a sustainable revolutionary society if we tolerate intolerance in our vanguard.
Stalin banned abortion and promoted quite traditionalist family ideas about 100 years ago in a completely different context.
Class issues are obviously central to marxism, but the liberation of women, people of color, and the lgbtq+ community are all central to socialist project too.
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I believe you, but can you provide sources for this myself and anyone else who may come upon this in the future?
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Yes, and? My point isnt that we should ban abortion, we shouldnt. My point is that Stalin is still a Comrade, and so are people who might be against abortion for religious views or otherwise. Simple.
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The woman question is an indispensable facet of Marxist-Leninism and tossing it to the side as an issue delegated to mere identity politics or wokescolding or whatever is anti-Marxist male chauvinism of the highest order. I used to consider your points on the question but you’ve pretty much just outed yourself as a chauvinist.
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The abortion question is the woman question!
Which i support! Whats your point?
You miss the point. We aren’t barely post monarchy soviet Russia.
Saying you’ll tolerate or GIVE POWER to anyone with ambitions to curtail such issues is literally asking those who are being oppressed to tolerate, allow, and GIVE POWER to such actors.
It does not do to have proletarian bigots just be allowed to go open season on their reactionary imaginations.
Shame is used in this sense BECAUSE ONE SHOULD KNOW BETTER ABOUT AT LEAST A 50 YEAR OLD ISSUE.
If a working class person has some irreconcilable bigotry that they can not or will not unlearn; it is quite simple. You prevent them from wielding any office or lever of power that will enable them to act on that.
There is no post America socialist society on Turtle Rock that bans abortion or entertains racial segregation or essentializes gender.
Jesus Christ. The wokescolds arent the enemy. They’re a bunch of progressives and minorities with a bigger voice now because of the miracle of the internet.
Yeah. We get it. All the three letter agencies are promoting the new rainbow hotness. Guess who else notices it? The IdPol folks.
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This is correct indeed
If that’s true, that is good and valid. I will kindly say that again, that even if you call yourself a “patsoc” but practice marxist-patriotism, as you state that Caleb does (sorry I don’t know anything about them) - nothing wrong with that.
However, there is at least a reactionary group bearing that name, that a lot of people, myself including, have had vastly negative reactionary interactions with.
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