“I must preserve my echo chamber!”
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It depends. Defederation for good reasons is good, defederation for bad or false reasons is generally bad.
As an example, having a strict and democratic defederation/federation policy has contributed to Hexbear having the most active trans community on Lemmy, and it’s a good thing that there’s an actively protected trans space free from bigotry.
At the same time, defederating from instances for political reasons under the guise of other reasons is generally a bad thing.
It’s largely context dependent.
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After that, things get more complicated.
I mean, “bad” in this case is completely subjective. There are large trans communities on other instances (blahaj being the most obvious one) and they have their reasons for defederating from Hexbear.
Hexbear defederated from blahaj, not the other way around. Either way, Hexbear remains the most active trans community on Lemmy.
I understand why anticommunist instances like Lemmy.world defederate from Hexbear, I just don’t think it will help Lemmy.world in the long run, as Lemmy itself by nature is going to attract Communists due to its structure.
I dunno, I feel like anyone drawn to Lemmy for that reason will find lemmy.ml nearly as easily. If world suffers because of bad practices, well, that’s the way it goes. At least the fediverse lives on.
They will, yes, but not always. Apps like Voyager assume .world as the default, causing friction when leftists join and run into silencing of their views.
Lemmy.ml is interesting, it’s a reference to Marxism-Leninism, but it doesn’t require users to be Communists like Lemmygrad, or leftists in general like Hexbear, hence the active population on Hexbear.
21·2 months agoLemmy.ml is interesting, it’s a reference to Marxism-Leninism
Is it really? Others have said it isn’t, that it’s just because .ml domains were free.
Honestly .world should have just blocked the most common shiposting Hexbear comms like chapotraphouse and dunk_tank as these are what most users found annoying. And I believe ther are more leftists on .world than one might think. There’s a great games comm on Hexbear too, and downvote away on the leftist game posts - Hexbear doesn’t have downvotes anyway!
The problem is that Lemmy.world doesn’t want Communists using their communities, not that their users shouldn’t be exposed to Communist posts, because they wanted homogenous liberalism.
There are some leftists on .world, but they usually leave in favor of leftist instances from what I have personally seen.
Absolutely agree about Hexbear’s games comm, easily the best gaming comm on Lemmy.
There are some leftists on .world, but they usually leave in favor of leftist instances from what I have personally seen.
Fair, that’s what I did.
Ada is okay with others chasing off people from the instance. Hard to say it’s a pro trans one after seeing multiple witch hunts done against a particular comm by one user and Ada just supporting the witch hunt
Well that’s definitely your own experience on federated platforms, but I wasn’t speaking to that circumstance. I made a mastodon account and criticized our government’s massive funding of Israel in spite of our lack of critical infrastructure and healthcare and got spammed with “Israel has a right to defend itself, and you 're a trumper if you think otherwise” type comments by people that post one response and then immediately block you. Which is laughable and couldn’t be further from the truth. That is the perpetual echo chamber I was referring to from my personal experience.
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Are positive, liberal LGBT communities echo chambers
Could be, especially if there aren’t a multitude of sentiments there. That doesn’t mean all sentiments must be present of course.
Are they not allowed a collective space to hang out without having to explain themselves all the time
I don’t think anyone said they aren’t allowed to have such a space.
You’re in an echo chamber if you curate your home feed to only show one opinion and then never change it; it doesn’t matter what the opinion is
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How?
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This is where you implied it was an attack. By saying that I was drawing an image of people when literally all I did was an explain what an echo chamber was. I never passed judgement on you, or said anything about the diversity of opinions I partake in. You decided all by yourself to be upset about a simple explanation of what an echo chamber was. If you’re not in one, don’t worry about it lol
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How did you take this as an attack? An echo chamber is the exaggerated idea of hearing only a single opinion, as curated to your own beliefs. It doesn’t matter what the belief is.
Obviously no one is 100% in an echo chamber, but it’s also obvious that everyone is guilty of confirmation bias; and tend to prefer seeing their own opinions online. I never said anything about my own feed or accused you of being in an echo chamber. I just explained what one was because you implied that it’s impossible to be in a liberal echo chamber
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Steve are you alright? You’re so defensive against someone who’s just explaining a concept you literally asked about
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HOW DARE YOU HAVE A MODERATELY DISSENTING VOICE, YOU LITERAL NAZI?!?!
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Oh literal Nazis can get fucked. My point is that you can disagree on topics and that health discourse is good
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I’d like to come to your house and take a shit in your bed.
There’s moderation and there’s making it into an echo chamber. Seems like a difference many don’t understand.
seems like nitpicking to me.
I don’t know if you’re joking or proving my point
Hope you get the help you need 🙏
Just bring TP, not Hope.
It’s ironically more about certain instances creating echo chambers through constant censorship.
Imagine an instance full of Nazi’s that only ever let’s Nazi posts stick. Is this if any value, or would defederating improve the quality of your experience?
You’re talking about Exploding Heads, which has been defederated by pretty much everybody.
Why would someone who doesn’t like blocking and de-federation like “federated platforms”?
Yeah part of the point of this is that it’s not a free speech zone unless you want a free speech instance. I prefer a more curated against bigots experience. Others don’t. Still others prefer other forms of curation. Federation means we can all talk to each other as long as we stay within boundaries of what others will stay federated with.
Exactly, it also means we can have different regions for different types of conversations, much like in the real world.
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Lemmy.ml is federated with the vast majority of major instances, moreso than others like Lemmy.world. What are you trying to say?
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Still doesn’t make sense, Lemmy.ml doesn’t constantly threaten to defederate from other instances over political reasons
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At least you acknowledge it’s dumb
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Might be good to add an
/s, considering how common that is on the anti-communist servers.Except it wasn’t sarcastic
yunno, on second thought, maybe i don’t want to be using a social platform where communism is expressly the default stance
If you love Capitalism and Liberalism I know just the platform for you: Reddit.com
Man that seems to be way more active than this one
The structure of Lemmy itself is built on Communist principles, you’re going to have Communists even if you try to block Communist instances.
It isn’t, but don’t let that stop you from leaving.
we could defederate i guess
I’ve never heard of pawb.social
It’s an instance for furries.
:(
Nothing wrong with furries, or furries creating their own instance.
Yeah but not by a user from ml
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free speech also applies to lemmy servers. If the server doesn’t agree with most of what’s on your server, they can and should have the option to not associate with your server at all. This honestly sounds like a shit take elon would have made.
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I defederated lemmy.world because I don’t feel like hosting and re transmitting US propaganda.
It is kinda surprising how much obvious propaganda makes it onto Lemmy, for example those memes that aren’t really memes as much as “haha this opinion wrong”
Lemmy itself is largely made up of Communists, Anarchists, and liberals fleeing Reddit.
As a consequence, there’s a lot of Communist agit-prop, and a lot of reflective panic on the hands of liberals.
The cycle of a specific comm on world
we only allow memes here
points out posts that aren’t memes
stop asking us to follow our rules
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is a very political place, even compared to Reddit where there’s a shitload of politics
I think it’s just as much a hivemind if not moreso than Reddit. Also, probably way easier to make bots for too
I think there’s benefit to blocking the particularly Nazi/pedo instances, but otherwise do wish we’d just all be able to federate together and share content for the most part.
You’ll just need to find an instance that federates with most instances. I think that’s why I chose lemm.ee. A lot of them censored porn too which was lame.
Me too!
I can block instances myself instance admins, thank you very much.
lemmy world admins cracking down on posts they don’t like with no accountability and arbitrarily changing their ToS after the fact to cover for it, but somehow the entirety of the factionalist weirdos who cling to the idea of a corpo-friendly Reddit clone are laying the blame on… other instances?
Users are celebrating them for a learning moment so yeah then blaming others is on brand
I think it depends on what you disagree with. If one is promoting going after our neighbors, hunting them down and killing them? Yeah, defederate. If another is Meta trying to take over the federation. Yeah, I vote defederate. If one thinks Hawaiian pizza is a travesty and the other doesn’t, hold your horses.
I tried like 4 different lemmy instances before settling on lemm.ee because it hasn’t defederated from the socialists or “tankies”. So I can participate.
This defederation fracturing lemmy really speaks to both self-censorship of allowable ideologies and also bad quality of admins and mods several servers.
If lemmy can’t somehow federate communities separately from instances I don’t see lemmy thriving.
Lemmy is thriving enough. Self-sufficient instances like Hexbear are fine without large amounts of federation. I do see Lemmy.world running into issues in the future due to their strong Zionist slant and anti-Leftist stance, but the other major instances seem to be fine.
And their desire to spin off their own version of lemmy in Java
Wait, what? Where can I read more about that?
It’s called “Sublinks,” I believe. They don’t trust the spooky scary commies and want to make their own, worse Lemmy alternative, which is silly.
Idk if it’s really to avoid the dirty commies.
Seriously think it’s just them thinking they either know better or just don’t want to learn rust
They could wait for Lemmy official dev or learn rust, it would take far less time. No, they want control.
I do see Lemmy.world running into issues in the future
I think lemmy.world is already pretty bad. To get away from their posts and comments I’ve considered joining hexbear, since you people honestly have the best content and most wholesome community and aren’t federated with .world, but I also don’t want to be completely isolated from the rest of the fediverse. However, I just noticed there are only 5 instances in hexbear’s blocked instance list and plenty in the linked list. Maybe I didn’t notice how all other instances started federating with hexbear again?
I don’t know what the “allowed” instance list means though.
To get away from their posts and comments I’ve considered joining hexbear, since you people honestly have the best content and most wholesome community and aren’t federated with .world
Make an account, Hexbear is perfect for you. I made a Hexbear account a few months ago and enjoy my time there much more than I do here, there’s far fewer struggle sessions and the quality of discussion is much higher.
I also don’t want to be completely isolated from the rest of the fediverse.
The cool thing about Hexbear is that it has by far the most active userbase I have seen, it’s fully self-sufficient and you won’t likely miss the rest.
However, I just noticed there are only 5 instances in hexbear’s blocked instance list and plenty in the linked list. Maybe I didn’t notice how all other instances started federating with hexbear again?
Some instances have Hexbear blocked on their side that Hexbear doesn’t have blocked, so this can be misleading, however it’s mostly the right-wing instances like shitjustworks, lemmy.world, and lemmy.ca that are of note, and their content fine to drop.
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Have you visited Hexbear? It’s a very wholesome instance overall and posters are very supportive, assuming you’re a Leftist. What leads you to believe otherwise?
Lol when I got banned from a major comm for defending a trotskyist comrade, after two years of participation on the instance, I learned all about the wholesomeness of your “non-sectarian” instance.
I think a prime example of hexbear wholesomeness is their trans megathreads: https://hexbear.net/post/3363552
They even have a community to help each other out: !mutual_aid@hexbear.net
I’m genuinely
unsurprised my previous comment got removed but anyway at least thanks for answering and providing an example.Anticommunism is generally removed on Lemmy.ml, probably the reason.
yes it is known that not being wholsome = not being communist.
Yeah it is thriving, what I meant is that to have a chance to replace reddit, lemmy needs to find some technical solutions (moving / migrating / merging of communities) and somehow stop fracturing into islands.
But maybe that age of the internet has passed and people are no longer willing because of trolls, bad faith actors, sock puppets, bots… and the increasing polarization of ideology and propaganda.
My point is that it doesn’t need to surpass Reddit, as long as its users enjoy using it then that is enough. Using Hexbear as an example, Hexbear doesn’t need any more growth, and is active enough to pretty much fulfill anything it needs on its own local instance.
I don’t think surpassing or having anything to do with reddit is valuable. I use lemmy because I think reddit sucks but now I can see how it can be better. For example, I want to disable all voting on my instance, I don’t believe it helps anything and the only reason lemmy has it is because of reddit, there is no algorithm or anything. That to me seems like the worst reason to have something.
Ok I’m just thinking out loud here…
Part of what makes (made) reddit great is that there are so many niche communities. That you scroll through reddit and find something interesting and new and can just jump in and discuss it.
THAT I think we can all agree would be great to grow in lemmy.There is no question that lemmy IS the same social media “mode” as reddit, a link aggregator where users can democratically sort news and articles and topics and discuss things. Lemmy is a clone of reddit, this can’t be disputed. The question is how to make it better than reddit and avoid the pitfalls. Right now moderation and admins are a bit problematic like e.g. the recent vegan clusterfuck.
And yeah for certain subs like vegan you don’t need downvotes since there wouldn’t be too many “controversial” topics. I suspect part of what is lacking on reddit is that there isn’t enough “tagging” on reddit. Like having ways for users to mark a post “funny/silly” or “unconstructive” or “misinformation” or NSFW, NSFL or hatespeech. Besides upvoting. Maybe I’m wrong with this.
But I think over time reddit degraded because the system didn’t support protection against malicious actors. For example tons of meta jokes. Every serious topic has a joke comment on top. You can’t filter them out. That might be a great use of AI like chatGPT for this where the AI learns from the tags and then allows to filter out joke comments. Not censor but allows you to filter out things that can be fun and crass but are not good for long term community. Basically to help moderators.
Of course the current problem is that users themselves have become more and more “post-truth”, not just the fascists but the “leftists”, liberals and centrists too and shout down any dissident opinion because they assume it’s bad faith. Nobody wants to engage any more because they’ve been burned. Maybe that can be reversed if lemmy has the right tools and the community is moderated well enough to “heal”. But again, the admins and moderators are currently the problem on lemmy. Lots of power-tripping and radicalism (and I don’t just mean the socialists lol).
And voting with your feet is also a problem because it leads to fracturing like mentioned in OP and that does have a negative effect. Like the europe@feddit.de community lost 75% of it’s users with the move to feddit.org. I assume similar things will happen to the vegan community now that you moved and people searching for vegan will be confused. Better technical tools are required.
So I think it’s not just about surpassing reddit in numbers, even though at least some growth is very curcial for niches to thrive, but to grow the usability of the software.
Anyway, just rambling / thinking out loud 🙂
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Yeah thinking about this, individual servers for specialized topics seems like the way to go. I guess it depends on the type of community. Vegan is large enough but still a specialized community that yeah doesn’t need size. It’s specialized but not a niche.
But other niche communities, e.g. av1, jpegxl or velomobile, are too niche to work without more people. I think.
But it would still be good if you could at least set a community to automatically “forward” to a new instance. And maybe that a community could “export” the posts from existing instance to a new instance. Then you could move or merge. I believe something like that is needed.
Yes, I basically searched for which one is least likely to defederate from random shit.
I’m prepared to traverse seas of horrors to bring home fresh memes every single day (except I sometimes skip alternating Tuesdays if I have to wait for too long to say hi to Reginald).
I’m not sure what’s going on in this comment but I like it
You are in luck:
Meh, that’s kind of the point, no? Seems like it would be more jarring to only federate at the community level, as you either a) still have to interact with people from the unwanted instance or b) deal with randomly hidden comments from that instance. If the community dies because it’s on an unpopular instance, well, that’s the way it goes. Can always start up/join a community on another instance that’s federated with yours.
let people defederate idgaf
Some places suck.
Some places suck, by design.
Reducing criticism of systemic problems to “just because you disagree” is dishonest… and indicative.
“You censored me for my opinion”
“What opinion was it?”
“…”
“What opinion was it Anakin?”
sigh All because of woke! It’s like you can’t even be civilized and manifest destiny in peace anymore… sarcasm
I see no problem with blocking users for their belief that I should be slaughtered over the sin of checks comments being born in the USA.
And I see no problem blocking instances where they gather.
You do realize that was most likely a joke comment, right? The genocidal US Empire is awful, but the idea that some online Communist thinks you should die purely from being from the US is silly.
Buddy your country has killed tens if not over a hundred million people in the conquest of war for hegemonic power and resource control across the globe. Someone on the internet hurt your feelings when making a joke. Obviously those two things are the same. 🙄
Read Fanon
When Musk took over Twitter he allowed violent and extremist views to flood it without moderation.
That’s the sort of community Lemmy would be if we didn’t have the tools needed to keep it clean of harmful ideologies.
You mean like Exploding Heads? I agree, fuck Nazis.
When nazis start enforcing their ideology I will raise arms, until then your sentiment closely resembles the goal of propagandists on these sites: create division and cause violence.
What are you talking about? Exploding Heads is a literal Nazi Lemmy Instance that was defederated by pretty much every major instance.
Or are you going on an Anticommunist rant?
I have no context about the community, I assumed you were advocating for exploding heads of political enemies as a way of keeping feeds clean, because the comment explicitly reads as such.
There is nothing communist about Nazis, just like theres nothing Democratic about the DPRK.
I have no context about the community, I assumed you were advocating for exploding heads of political enemies as a way of keeping feeds clean, because their comment explicitly reads as such.
That’s certainly a leap. Exploding Heads is a Nazi Lemmy Instance.
There is nothing communist about Nazis, just like theres nothing Democratic about the DPRK.
So it was a random anticommunist rant, unprovoked, lmao
If anything I said seems anticommunist to you then clearly you don’t know what communism is.
You should start referring to the nazi community “exploding heads” as “the nazi community “exploding heads”” if you dont want people to think of heads which are exploding.
I know quite well what Communism is, thank you very much. You’re openly pro-NATO and anti-Communist.
And those harmful ideologies are.?
White Supremacy, Anti-immigrant, Anti-Trade, Anti-NATO, Anti-human-rights for LGBT, etc.
You like warmongers NATO?
Anti-Trade
What does this mean?
Anti-NATO
It’s good to be Anti-NATO, NATO has Nazi origins and serves as a way to maintain Western Hegemony, securing profits via Imperialism and defending said Imperialism through coalition.
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anti globalist, economically it’s just universally bad
Right… NAFTA was universally beloved and was never taken advantage of by unsavory political characters. I’m sure you have some very unkind words for Biden after he continued and expanded Trump’s trade war.[/s]
funnily enough my comment was removed, unsure why, pretty sure it was mostly accurate though lol.
I’m sure you have some very unkind words for Biden after he continued and expanded Trump’s trade war.
it’s a fine balance between putting a 20% tariff on literally every import (i believe trump wanted to do this) and putting a 100% tariff on chinese EVs to give the american auto market a leg to stand on.
It’s a give and take, like everything is. But regardless, globalism is generally good for the economy.
It is weird that your comment was removed.
it’s a fine balance between putting a 20% tariff on literally every import (i believe trump wanted to do this) and putting a 100% tariff on chinese EVs to give the american auto market a leg to stand on.
Right this is the contradiction I was poking fun at.
Personally, I prefer the carrot to the stick approach. I think we should do more stuff like the chips act and less stuff like tariffs. This is especially true in the context of technology that aids in the transition to an economy that uses less fossil fuels. The ~$10,000 Chinese EVs would be a pretty massive tool in that arsenal. (Though not as good of a tool as they are in China because of China’s genuinely impressive rail system.) If you want more American made EVs —cool so do I— but we will get there faster with the right industrial policy. The tariffs do little to make that happen.
I do not think this is a strong argument. Nobody considers NASA to be the “space Nazis” either, just because some employees had connections with Nazi Germany. It’s a huge leap to claim NATO follows or is connected to some Nazi ideology based on this.
brother every ethnic german in the world has ties with the third reich.
They were literal Nazi Party members. Read the article.
Lmao
Mutual defense and deterrent to invasion by hostile world powers both in and outside of NATO is a bad thing? Sure, okay pal.
It’s an alliance between Imperialist countries, and the alliance itself has Nazi origins and has had Nazi leaders. Yes, it’s a bad thing, because Imperialism is a bad thing.
It’s a gang of countries that hyper-exploit the Global South in mutual defense against said Global South.
it’s lemmyworld… they’ll never learn that they aren’t on reddit anymore.
It’s literally only function is a deterrent to war, including by members against others as they will not gain NATO support unless they are attacked.
Its members might exploit, but thats a meaningless statement about NATO itself because without NATO there would literally be more war.
It’s literally only function is a deterrent to war, including by members against others as they will not gain NATO support unless they are attacked.
It’s expansionist against the wishes of outside countries, and NATO exerts military pressure on the Global South.
Its members might exploit, but thats a meaningless statement about NATO itself because without NATO there would literally be more war.
Bzzzzt wrong. NATO’s only function is to preserve Western Hegemony and dominate the Global South militarily, so that member-States can continue exploiting ruthlessly unopposed. This results in proxy wars, such as the Israeli genocide of Palestinians.
- George Washington U’s National Security Archive 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2024: The 2024 NATO Declaration The Deadly Strategy of Neoconservatism
.
Also, don’t send us reports just because you don’t agree with someone. We’re not here to censor people for you.
Oh no! So you want to talk about how the mutual self defence pact is somehow oppressing you or will you just keep dodging forever?
Nato is as much a “mutual defense” pact as sea lions are lions. These guys bombed Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq and countless other nations. The members of Nato have repeatedly cooperated with each other, using the military networks built through the alliance to wage proxy wars, perform coups, destabilise regions of the world at a scale never before seen in human history.
You might as well call the axis a mutual defense alliance lmao.
Reason: User threatens me not to report his alt accounts for misinformation again
What alt accounts? What are you even talking about? That’s two bullshit reports in one day, wasting our time.
Reason: Claimes NATO forces other nations into subservience.
I’ve got bad news for you: a lot of us are anti-NATO.
Also, what the hell is anti-trade? Do you want every Westphalian state to build a wall around itself?
Edit to add: Oh I see, you created this new account because @FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today got permabanned from lemmy.ml 😂 Let’s see how long this one lasts…
A lot of X Users support ending all trade relations with China via heavy tarriffs.
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Ah yes, free trade, the thing that improved the economies of ex-communist countries after the USSRs collapse and is on the path to fixing almost every African nations poverty.
Ah yes, NATO, the “we will only call for (and maybe possibly do something to enforce) human rights if it’s convenient for us” alliance. And I’m sure all it’s member nations have squeaky clean track records when it comes to international politics.
We must ban anyone against these things! That’s dangerous extremist ideology
anti-NATO
A “harmful ideology”? Is someone paying you to spout this propaganda?
NATO’s only function is mutual defense, NATO support ends when a member attacks.
Since the only thing NATO does is prevent War, the only anti-NATO stance is a pro-war stance.
The invasion of Libya was a NATO-led effort.
Stop lying.
Are you referring to the coalition of some NATO members and some non-NATO members (19 nations total) enforcing a United Nations Security Council decision to make an immediate ceasefire and end the civil war in Libya?
The one with zero troops on the ground?
Being in NATO had no impact on the events, NATO member support was not mandatory as per the terms of NATO. The only reason they even call it a NATO operarion was because Itally would only vote in favor of the operation if NATO members were in charge instead of France.
The reason for NATO’s involvement is quite irrelevant because they were still happy to step in and do the work. The fact is that it was ultimately NATO-led and their efforts did not lead to peace in the region.
To call NATO’s involvement in Libya ‘anti-war’ is sheer lunacy.
Who do you think are supporting those?
Elon Musk, owner of Xitter
The fuck is that question?
In context of lemmy… Really quick to anger
Well I certainly could make comparisons but thats a little irrelevnt. The core of my statement is that Lemmy doesn’t operate the way Twitter does.
For me “the fuck is that question” is just a colloquial expression of confusion, not anger.
this is so true lmao.
mm yes federated media platform, surely i won’t run into shitty people now
runs into shitty people:
🥱
