Liberals calling themselves tankies for laughing at some memes but never bothered to read any theory: b-but what if the porn actor/actress “consents” though, downvoot!
Also liberals: wait, is non-consensual sex immoral?
Contrary to the mainstream liberal “feminist” belief, there is a reason Communists always support sex trade abolition
Seriously - they make the same argument as libertarians. They laugh that argument off as ridiculous when it’s applied to general labour, correctly recognizing the coercive nature of markets, but then adamantly stand by it when it’s applied to porn/prostitution. The cognitive dissonance is astounding…
“Wage labour is slavery!”
“Coerced sex from your boss is rape!”
“Paid sex and recordings are… uhhhhh”
So you don’t have a job then?
Smooth brain take
If the person had a job requireing any amount of average labour (and by average i mean world average) maybe they wouldn’t judge industries as a whole but maybe chose their targets more specifically. f.e. abusive corporations, churches, biker gangs…
I mean, there are men diving in shit regularily risking their lives so our fecies can fulfill its destiny. and imagine you would attack the field of shit-diving for its coercive labour relationships (you being forced into shifts or overtime… having to break your back while diving in shit… having a shitty boss…), instead of attacking and regulating the power differential at the workplace (better pay, better work security, better healthcare, better regulations, flat hierarchies…) - OR KILL SHIT DIVING “as a concept” (in our current market) all you will achieve is your toilet being clogged and all of it coming up the pipes and flooding your house.
and this is exactly what will happen if such people are let lose on society without at least having been reminded that society is full of people who are fucked in the head and who need to be given a place, whose pathologies have to be mitigated and given purpose e.t.c. and this often can look strange to people who don’t ever walk a mile in their shoes. this is something even the state religions have understood. i m just of the opinion that their fix isn’t really working for anyone but them…
Personally, i think this is a Don Quixote
Holy fuck you’re obsessed with me. Stop thinking about me and chill the fuck out. I’m the most boring person and you accuse me of being an agent. Are you sure you’re on your right mind?
Stop talking to me, stop talking about me. Disengage. Actually, stop talking on the internet and call a person you know IRL. This is insane behavior.
i won’t go into this much further since you 're going to cry mommy to the admins, because you can’t actually engage with arguments in the public forum you participate in out of your free will thus provoking responses which you are not obliged to like. but since you ve been editing your posts way down into our misguided “conversation” at least give me time to properly edit my posts, before you throw your projections around, will you. thx, out…
in regards to assange, yes you are an agent, i would rather call you a drone. you don’t even know the real argument you are making here. you don’t even know to what ends your topical argument will be used and who runs its narrative course.
I don’t believe you’re mentally stable. I will not engage with your arguments because: I wasn’t fit to do so (which I let you know) and now I don’t believe it will make any sense.
You’re a spammer. You’re rambling, irate and deluded. Go talk to someone who cares about you. I’m not insulting you, I’m doing you a favour.
the only system under which prostitution could be considered voluntary is a system that meets the basic needs of food, shelter, heating, electricity, childcare and healthcare. Which is by coincidence also the only system that would probably reduce the market for prostitution to a minimum, because few women would come under the economic pressure.
Currently i see two groups of “legal” prostitutes: self employed people who need money and or people who take too much drugs and need money. both usually with certain pschological drives based in abuse, poverty, psychotrauma, & so on.
making it illegal just feeds the desperate into the depths of state violence, police & wage abuse, exploitation and so on. we are not making it better by criminalizing it, but we can harshly regulate it to push pimp culture out of the market. Kinda like the legality of drugs & guns. you can’t leave the market to criminals, but you can also not just destroy the market in a top down measure, without becoming a dictatorship - and or/thus driving the demand & price. all you do is increase the suffering of people who are already caught in a downward spiral they were enticed into and provided with by the current economic system
I believe poverty alleviation and stronger workers rights (if we can’t get socialism) is the best way to fight prostitution. And have programs that focus on marginalized people who turn to sex work (women, LGBT people, poor people, immigrants… sadly, teens). I’m against the legalization of buying sex and pimping but I don’t oppose explicit legal protections for sex workers like making sure you can’t evict sex workers or stop arrests for simply working and defending themselves from clients.
as much as i agree, pretending “poverty allevation” is on the horizon is just naive. it’s not coming for the foreseeable (pre-revolutionary) future. so why crack down on something for which no alternative is being given to the extent that sex workers would choose said alternative. and i m not talking about forced prostitution or human trafficking because these should be criminalized where they are not already. unfortunately, the definition of who is a refugee helper and who is a human trafficker is a political decision. so i against any reduction in personal liberties as long as the state is not functional, democratic or a means of redistibution.
Why do anything if you don’t believe a better future is possible? I can’t believe a “communist” would speak this way. Do you think organizing is just a meme?
Be honest with me. Have you ever seriously engaged with Marxist feminist theory?
changing the course of history begins with understanding its trajectory and who threw the thing to want ends.
I only know marxist theory. and i know feminist discourses and the feminist discourses i respect are the ones which derive from anticolonialism, black & indigenous women, the subalternous classes, not western white academia who basically represent todays suffragettes (which i consider white rightwing middle/upper class outrage based policy of todays Corp-Dems, historically used to RE-ENSLAVE the freed black slaves into CRIMINAL CLASSES by means of PROHIBITION, which the suffragette led government achieved by deludeing women into having electoral power over an oligarchical, patriarchical economy which they had long removed from any government influence…). Same goes for the whole “democracy” bullshit. where are we democratic? show me at your workplace…
Organizing is a thing, but i m not going for anyones witchhunt against a concept they cannot get rid of. it’s like the war on drugs and the war on terror. if you really wanna wage them, you need to fight for poverty alleviation FIRST & FOREMOST. as such i do not respect such fringing out of marxist discourses into gender/race boxes and putting gender-sentiments of a non-economic nature into the forefront. formulate your economic problem (where there is exploitation, we shall fight it, independent of pseudomoralistic religious sentiments)
to put it bluntly: women are a class, as such i don’t have to know more than how class oppression and alleviation works. and it doesn’t work by reducing options but not giving alternatives. and since there are no alternatives being given to those in the field, the only thing you can do is to siphon off money from the top (taxing). and don’t you think that the cost isn’t handed down until the state actually gets involved in regulating this industry
which exists even in the most conservative, most shut down backwards theocracy, as much as they are trying to get rid of it…
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While i understand why they did this, banning drugs is not an ideal scenario. Drugs should be legalized and regulated, so that addicts and casual users can have access to them safely. Most of the harm from drugs comes from the crap that is put in them by cartels. Banning drugs and simply forcing addicts off the drugs cold turkey is inhumane and rarely works. If the state had put me in prison and forced me off heroin cold turkey back when i was addicted to heroin, i would have probably killed myself. People think drug withdrawal is a joke, a minor discomfort. Its not, its an unbearable atrocious pain, it traumatizes you. I have never gone through full on cold turkey heroin withdrawal, the most ive been through is 2 days of withdrawal, and yet that still left a scar. Now i cant stand sweating, even a little bit, because it reminds me of heroin withdrawal and gives me anxiety (heroin withdrawal causes among other things intense cold sweating). Imagine the scar id have if id gone full cold turkey. Drugs need to be legalized. I can understand poor socialist countries not doing it because of lack of resources, i get that. But for rich global north nations, there is no excuse to not do it, since the resources are there.
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Yeah, most people who have never used or seen drugs have no idea about them. It also doesnt help that media reporting about them is insanely sensationalistic and false, its meant to scare people and get clicks. If you ever see a western media article on some “new scary drug that will totally destroy society” you can bet its bullshit. Ive tried most of the common drugs (caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, cannabis, LSD, MDMA, cocaine, amphetamine, methamphetamine, tramadol, codeine, dihydrocodeine, morphine, oxycodone, nitrous oxide, pregabalin, DXM, ketamine and heroin) and ive never had any problems with it except for heroin. And besides, that was because of personal psychological problems (Covid lockdown + other shit), since i have several friends that use heroin very occasionally and have had 0 problems. Drugs dont cause addiction, psychological problems cause addiction, most of them stemming from capitalism. Thus, under socialism/communism drugs would cause very few addiction problems, if any.
I can tell you for real, even with the supposed “evil hard drugs” like cocaine, meth or heroin, most users arent addicted, even in hypercapitalist fucked up societies like the USA. Medical studies have shown that in the USA, only 25% of heroin users become addicts. Now imagine how low the figure would be in a successful socialist/communist society where alienation and poverty are no longer a thing. Drugs have been a thing for all human history, banning them is stupid. Now this isnt to say that socialist countries with 0 drug use like DPRK or Cuba should allow them, that would be pointless, they have no drug problem in the first place. But in China for example, where they do have a drug problem (although much lower than the west), i think it would be a good move, since they definetely have the resources to produce legal drugs for drug addicts (unlike Cuba or DPRK for example). In fact, the CPC is realizing this, albeit slowly. While in the past they would arrest heroin addicts and force them off heroin cold turkey, which is terrible, now they have started implementing methadone programs, which is a step in the right direction.
The same stupid head in the sand, backward mentallity. Forbid it and it will not disappear. On the contrary, there will be much more crime and deaths. Portugal has proven this .
While i agree with your position that drugs should be legalized, you are very mistaken. Portugal did NOT legalize drugs. It never did, this is a very common misconception. Portugal only decriminalized drugs, meaning drug use and possession was legal, but production and sale was not. While this is certainly good for drug users and addicts, in the overall scheme of things its terrible. You make the job of drug dealers easier, since they can exploit the legal loophole of possession for personal use to avoid drug trafficking charges. You also dont fix the problem of harmful drugs, since the drug market continues to be in the hands of gangsters and cartels, so theres 0 quality control on what the drugs contain. While decriminalization would definetely be good in countries with high drug incarceration like the USA, it would be terrible and stupid in countries with low drug use.
What you have to do is legalize drugs, not decriminalize them. You create legal access to drugs, regulated, so that those who are addicted or simply like to use them can do so without danger and without funding cartels. A real example of this is Switzerland, which legalized heroin. Heroin addicts can get access to 100% pure pharmaceutical heroin for free. This reduces the damage of the drug a lot and allows them to lead normal lives.
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well, they did not do that because of benevolence or positive effects on society, they did it because the state was run on alcohol and held the monopoly to the sale. on the other hand, there was an active ongoing attempt of the UK/US to flood Russia with heroin, so the leadership wouldn’t want foreign gangsters to earn money on their soil. i think this was more crimethink and counter-intelligence rather than based on human rights or socioeconomic ideals.
i might add, that christian inflicted alcohol monopolies and drug prohibitions are a CHRISTIAN dogma, not a communist/socialist one. plz resume downvoting…
OK so everyone is coerced to perform labor under capitalism, which means anyone performing sex work is in some sense being coerced into having sex. The question is why is that worse than being coerced into any other labor?
It seems to me that this position is disingenuously conflating the, shall we say, passive coercion everyone faces under capitalism with the kind of active coercion that takes place in e.g. sex trafficking. In the latter, people are literally kidnapped and forced to have sex against their will. In the former, people have to choose some way of making money, and for some people they find their best option to be sex work.
Sex trafficking and any other directly forced sex is quite obviously abhorrent. But when we say that any sex work, even when it is chosen by the worker, is similarly unconscionable, we have to either agree that under capitalism, construction work, data entry work, and food service industry work are also just as immoral and must be abolished, or else explain why being coerced by the system into selling one’s body to perform labor, say, building a community center or coding a video game is different than labor that involves sex.
If you believe that sex is inherently different than any other physical or mental activity, why?
Now, I could see an argument that it is difficult to be sure that people starring in pornography aren’t being forced to do so as sex slaves, so for practical purposes it’s best to just ban it outright. If that’s the position, I’d say it’s somewhat reasonable, as long as it wouldn’t be illegal for my wife and I to continue making and watching our own videos of ourselves. This position doesn’t really work for illustrated or animated pornography, though.
If you believe that sex is inherently different than any other physical or mental activity, why?
The sex trade / rape industry cannot be equated to other industries, and especially to production. It is based on the historical patriarchal exploitation of women’s bodies and reproductive capacity, and today’s sex trade is the culmination of thousands of years of women’s oppression. No one, especially men, are entitled to sex. Production is necessary, rape isn’t.
The battleground here is women’s bodies and sexual autonomy, fighting to preserve their bodily autonomy from rapists holding the money that allow them to survive.
passive coercion everyone faces under capitalism with the kind of active coercion
Once you start learning about the horrorshow of the sex trade, you’ll see how blurred those lines are, so as to make the distinction between trafficked women and poverty-forced prostitution meaningless.
It is based on the historical patriarchal exploitation of women’s bodies and reproductive capacity, and today’s sex trade is the culmination of thousands of years of women’s oppression.
You must be very strongly against the institution of marriage then.
And where do trafficked boys fit into your theory?
You must be very strongly against the institution of marriage then.
Have you ever even talked to a Marxist feminist? The answer is yes. Communists have even written about how difficult it is to fight prostitution when the institution of marriage exists.
Sorry, I should’ve included the trafficking of children, also an important aspect of the sex trade.
And yes communists unsurprisingly have a lot to say about the institution of bourgeios marriage.
The question is why is that worse than being coerced into any other labor
What do you call coerced sex? What makes you when you enjoy having sex with someone who is coerced?
Edit: Discussing sexual violence is triggering to me. I can’t offer a fair discussion right now. Sorry.
No, having sex is NOT the same as performing general labour. Do you really need someone to sit down with you and explain why, like are you really that dense?
Lmao this is so bizarre. Who gets off watching a reenactement of a genocide? Wtf
Nazis
There is porn made for race players. You thought “ebony beauty” was racist? There are white porn actors calling black actors the n-word for some fetishists’ orgasms.
I mean yeah but thats not so weird. I guess its kind of some weird BDSM type fantasy, kinda like people who like to call/be called “b1tch” or “slut”. Definetely racist, but not that weird. This is straight up jerking off torture porn lol
Edit: Why the downvotes? Im not defending porn :/
White people trafficked and enslaved black people for centuries. How is getting off to being racist, which includes throwing insults that bring up slavery, different?
I didnt say it wasnt racist, i literally said it was racist. I just said its not as weird and bizarre as what is shown in this video, since these types of insults in which white men dominate/oppress women (whether white or nonwhite), such as in the examples i gave above, are very common in mainstream porn. I didnt say it was right or okay, i just said it was more common, and thus it surprised me/shocked me less.
I didn’t say you think it’s not racist
So why the downvotes? All i said is its not that weird/uncommon, because its not. Its very common among mainstream porn. This isnt a justification, its just stating a fact.
I think people are reading “not that weird” like it has some moral weight to it, like it’s not that weird --> it’s normal --> it’s okay/a morally okay thing to do.
Is it really that common?? IDK, I’m not a porn watching degenerate anymore and haven’t been for a long time, for years now - it wasn’t common then tho, I don’t remember seeing anything like that haha. So you’re saying porn has gotten even worse? Wow…not really surprised,but yeah…
from a pimp? In what way are these sex workers completely uncoerced by capitalism to perform or else starve?
i personally believe that this is encouraged on the production side, which is mostly run by rightwing conservative libertarians who love playing the race card and defending their favourite racist slurs by imprinting young girls.
but since sex is taboo in christian/muslim societies, of course other taboos will fall under the same psychological fetishisation mechanism. If sexual activity were more accepted and less frowned upon with moralistic outrage, such associations couldn’t be made that easily
I mean, did y’all notice how “step-sibling” incest-type fetishisation was all of a sudden rampant on pornhub around the time donald trump came into office and all sorts of feudal families started to comeing out of the woodworks again and giving commentary in media about politics and the state of society/economy/politics…
That’s disgusting, westoid decadence really has no limit
A few articles in case people haven’t learned about this topic yet:
- Esperanza - A Socialist, Feminist, and Transgender Analysis of “Sex Work” .
- RevLeft Radio interview with Comrade Brigid and Esperanza - Proletarian Feminism, Women’s Liberation, and the Sex Trade.
- Kollontai - Prostitution and ways of fighting it
- Esperanza - The problem with sex-trade expansionary Feminism.
As an asexual, I always thought that pornographic content is disgusting and needs to be banned permanently, but now I think the industry should go on death penalty holy shit! Here is a map where it’s banned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_laws_by_region#/media/File:Pornography_laws.svg
“Noooooo, ebil tankies want to restrict girlbosses’ right to escape capitalism through voluntary and horizontally-organized, non-exploitative porn-making communes nooo” - @AnarchoCoomerist6969 (has never talked to a woman like a normal person)
The leftist stance on sex work and porn is what got me to re-evaluate my stance on communism (i was a propagandized fool who had written it off as authoritarianism). This was something I had always felt isolated me from other progressives.
Restrict girlbosses, lol.
red is based, as always
Based
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I think it also instills sexism, general mental health problems, overall unhappiness, anti-social worldviews, the list goes on imo. Not to mention the sex trafficking side and exploitative side of it.
Doesn’t take a genius to come to the conclusion that having orgasms to material that promotes racism and misogyny makes it acceptable in some way.
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Before I was a leftist I felt this way about romantic relationships as well. I’d listen to other guys objectify their own s.o.'s and I’d think “how can I love someone and objectify them?” As a leftist I love everyone and they are all valuable and developing. How can I love someone and objectify them?
There is actually an interesting philosophical notion (I think Hegel - edit: yes Hegel’s Master-slave dialectic) which describes interpersonal relationships as being guided by the subject-object dynamic. The desire of every human is to be seen as a subject (acknowledging sentience), not an object (denying sentience). And in some dysfunctional people this manifests itself as reducing others to objects, which forces the others to view them as the subject. Slavery, sexism, racism. In well adjusted people this manifests itself as a desire that all humans should be seen as subjects and should see themselves as such. In fact I believe the key tool of reactionaries is to present the proletariat with a false choice. That is: you are human or they are, when the truth is that we can all be human and live well if we remove the parasitic landlord class.
That is why I love this quote from Che “At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality.”
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Thank you for the compliment. I learned this notion from listening to Taimur Rahman’s series of lectures on modern philosophy. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOV7ykEqGK1alpFlVXpMZd2L6YS2p3c8B
Damn that Hegel dude had some pretty cool ideas
I think it was Lenin who said that Hegel was pretty much required reading to understand Marxism.
Not just romantic relationships. It affects any type of sexual relationship people want to have.
I am not an asexual and I agree
Wow, I’m glad everyone on here is so based when it comes to porn. It’s defs not like that on reddit. I remember a little while back I made a comment on there against porn - on GenZeDong - and everyone just slammed me with downvotes. Sad…
Think it’s because a lot of libs would occasionally troll us there
Fake history repeats itself, first as propaganda and then as smut.
This comment section is a fucking war zone
there is great unrest under the heavens, the conditions are perfect…
i don’t watch actual pornography anymore for a number of reasons. smut/hentai is, shall i say, more ethical.
I know I’ll get downvoted but… I really, really don’t mind porn. At all. And it isn’t because I’m Brazilian. My problem is that porn industry is pretty much pimping. I believe if a bunch of exhibitionists wanna make a video or a picture (or a drawing) and upload it for free, there’s no problem in that.
Porn / filmed rape is a multi-billion dollar industry, 99.9999% of it is made for a profit. As materialists, we don’t focus on what-if scenarios, but how the industry currently functions.
Good point. I’m all for criminalizing production of pornography as long as there’s a profit incentive (at least when it involves actual people; in theory, I’m fine with drawn pornography, although… there’s a lot of shit that I’d argue should be illegal there too). Of course, the producers should be the ones receiving punishment, not the sex workers themselves
Of course, the producers should be the ones receiving punishment, not the sex workers themselves
And if those are the same person? A good chunk of for-profit pornography is individual people producing and selling on their own.
Is it really a large percentage? If so, it’s a bit murkier for me – if that’s the only way they have to pay their bills (which is a bigger problem in and of itself, of course), I can’t just say that there should be a blanket ban until every sex worker is provided with a reasonable alternative job, guaranteed housing, etc. (which is basically guaranteed not to happen under capitalism)
Edit: in addition, if you’re talking about OnlyFans and the like, the workers don’t receive the full profits, which is at least as much of a problem as for other types of labour
Is it really a large percentage?
I honestly don’t know the exact percentage, only that the workers on markets like OnlyFans and various cam sites are, from my own personal experience, mostly one-person or one-couple gigs. And indeed, those markets do take a cut. But we’ve already seen an example of the uproar sex workers gave when it looked like OnlyFans was going to stop supporting adult content. So, “just get rid of OnlyFans” isn’t likely to be a benefit to those sex workers.
I can’t just say that there should be a blanket ban until every sex worker is provided with a reasonable alternative job, guaranteed housing, etc. (which is basically guaranteed not to happen under capitalism)
Unfortunately, that’s not guaranteed to happen under socialism either. There are several existing socialist states that outlaw sex work, despite (supposedly) eradicating the coercive nature of work under capitalism. In such a free society, why shouldn’t anyone be allowed to put a price on their consent for sex, as they would put a price on their consent for any other form of labor they could provide in their economy? Are these workers genuinely liberated of their previous forms of oppression or not?
And if they haven’t entirely eradicated the coercive nature of work within their state; if other axes of oppression are still festering --and thus, work is coercive within that state-- then what happens when the state’s workers choose sex work over the “alternative” job that may be (or may not be) available? Because that is the material reality of the world we live in now. Millions of sex workers --almost entirely women-- are “opting” to engage in coercive sex work. And I’d venture that most of them would not continue to do so, that most of them would leave, if better alternatives presented themselves.
But if you don’t have a viable alternative for them to exit to, then you aren’t prepared to abolish the sex trade. If you don’t have an alternative, then you’re not protecting workers. You’re protecting your image. The worker knows best. If there is a better alternative, they will exit, and it is your moral imperative to build that alternative. But if they’d rather engage in coercive sex work than coercive factory work, then that is their unfortunate so-called “choice” to make, and the state wagging their finger and saying “no, you must report to the factory instead,” leaves a distinctly patriarchal and Calvinist taste in my mouth.
I can think of a few reasons why AES countries would outlaw sex work:
- They’re in a very early stage of socialism, so there are still many people who work for private businesses and not everyone is guaranteed a home regardless of their job (e.g. China, AFAICT)
- They had a severe problem with prostitution pre-revolution and don’t want to risk that happening again
- They live in a largely capitalist world (i.e. every country) and don’t want people to be tricked into doing sex work
- They ban pornography as a whole because they believe it is detrimental to the mental health of their citizens, which means that sex work is also prohibited
Obviously, there’s no simple answer here. If there was a worker-owned alternative to OnlyFans, that would at least be a better solution as long as there’s a market economy
Literally none of these reasons are valid
I agree, but I do think that porn made by sex workers themselves like amateur porn and onlyfans is okay
If it involves even a little money, it isn’t consensual. Tons of people on onlyfans depend on getting men off in order to pay their rent. That is patriarchal sexual exploitation no matter how you package it.
Why? In what way is onlyfans different from a pimp? In what way are these sex workers completely uncoerced by capitalism to perform or else starve?
Founder of only fans - a literal pimp. The quote is from “wall street”
another one for the wall
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Yeah, but the chances of reaching that level are the same as your chances of becoming a pro athlete lol. The majority of onlyfans creators make less than minimum wage
Not saying OnlyFans isn’t like a pimp but at least with onlyfans they have a choice to make porn and can stop if they want to, without coming in direct danger of sexual assault. Porn will never disappear, so we have to find more ethical ways of producing porn than the porn industry, and I think the solution lies with people producing their own porn
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All forms of pornography commodify sex, albeit to a lesser extent than straight up prostitution. The overwhelming majority of pornographic content is produced not because of some artistic vision, but to exploit people’s bodies for profit, in the most literal sense. It preys on vulnerable people who have very few options to make a living, and actively promotes violent and harmful sexual behavior.
The problem is that there IS a porn INDUSTRY that commodities bodies
I mean yeah you are right, but the point is pretty much noone does porn for free, they do it coerced by capitalism. Would someone do it willingly without coercion under socialism/communism? Hard to say, i personally dont think so. Nevertheless, that is a hypothetical scenario that doesnt apply to current reality, since pretty much noone does it willingly. Thus, in the current reality, porn is inherently exploitative.
Why the hell is this unpopular? It’s a very reasonable take.
Because sex and intimacy are touchy subjects that are tightly coupled with morality, are historically intertwined with multiple forms of both oppression and liberation, and not everyone agrees on the boundaries of what can or should be exchangeable through trade or money. Threads on this topic are always heated and spicy.
IMO (even though i believe in abolishing the sex trade) too often communists critique the notion of “sex work” from a moralistic position despite claiming not to.
There will always be exhibitionists. There will always be people who view sex and fulfilling fetishes as a service. As a species our views on sex will always be evolving, and different nations’ cultures have different attitudes on public sexuality. This might be an unpopular opinion here, but I don’t think communists should be making any puritanical moral judgements on sex exhibitionism that we then try to apply as some universal expectation for any future communist government to meet. Ultimately, those historically most affected by the sex trade – non-bourgeois women, lgbtq, and youth – should be the loudest voices dictating the consensus of how any particular society legally approaches this topic. Because the expectations will differ from society to society depending on that society’s own social norms.
The problem is the exchange of sex for survival is an incredibly coercive relationship. That’s true of any exchange of “labor” under capitalism, but for sex workers who are commodifying their own reproductive health and gender it’s even more so. Our task should to remove the coercive nature of sexual relationships under capitalism.
That is a great answer. And I say morality here is formed by religion, which an alarming percentage of people here are part of.
Thanks, comrade ^^
As an answer to all arguments in reply to mine:
Yes! Yes! I do see the fact it’s an industry as a problem. But I’m not really talking about what-if scenarios. I used to do that stuff for free. Maybe I’m a pervert, maybe I just don’t see sexuality as taboo. Neverthless, when people usually ban pornography, it goes as well for stuff like drawings and people who simply like to show themselves off.
Basically, I do not like money involved (I might overlook when it’s stuff like drawn commissions - I see it as no different than an artist who charges to do any form of art), but meanwhile, I see no issue in someone getting their rocks off and sharing so like-minded folks can see it.
rule 34
i don’t see anything wrong with pornography or prostitution, on the basis of it being voluntary, which is the main problem. the problem is an economic problem, not a moral one.
now plz downvote me
These backward and religiously conditioned morons can not imagine it being voluntary. That’s how far they are mentally gone. Even calling it rape. Not realising that by forbidding it it will actually encourage rape. But it’s a bit like with drugs, forbidding it and then thinking it will disappear. Only to see that it happens but only unmonitored and much more dangerous. These people are total hypocrites.
You’re a liberal lmao
You’re a nasty religious conservative from the dark ages
I’m a degenerate bisexual with no gender or god. So I better get prepared to get stoned to death, liberal.
Edit: Lmao are you down voting my comment history? Are you a child?
Edit 2: you’re a dude from western Europe, yeah I see no reason you would defend pornography and prostitution. Goodbye!
i think this argument “prostution equals rape” just serves the STate Departement persecution of Julian Assange in the eyes of the METOO/CorpDem suffragette class, driven by white affluent housewives.
I admit it is a long arch, but they are doing everything to destroy the man. including inciting astroturf outrage like this panic-person
and what are you then? a fascist? because lets not forget that the purity-principle (part of which is the institutional sovereignty over womens bodies) is at the core of catholic fascism. do you think all people went to work sober in the soviet union or that there were even much reprisals against being drunk at work? do you think there was no prostitution? i beg to differ…
so why this exclusionary love for alcohol but condemnation of other means of self medication? It stems from the same cultural religious encoding that tells us that female sexuality and the power it holds is dangerous or sinful?
drug prohibition was driven by fascists and christians and usually for purely for a mixture of racism and profit motives (also to keep their monopolies - see dupont / Nylon in particular) and so is the shaming of women using their sexuality for profit - Prostitution (legal, regulated…) is labour and as such deserves representation. So how about you attack the porn moguls of san fernando rather than the probably oldest exchange of goods in history?
What the fuck are you talking about
Hearing a “comrade” talk this way about the sex trade makes me suicidal lmao. There’s no fucking hope if “educated communists” will spew this type of shit. Goodbye.
framing the other argument like this makes me worried that you are not led by arguments but by outrage over something which you do not relate to as it has people in it which you don’t want to relate to. very communist of you, truly…
Oh my god. Shut the fuck up. I’m not interested in discussing a topic that is highly triggering on a fucking public internet forum. Again, goodbye.
triggering? wtf? why? maybe you should take that emotional discomfort/cognitive dissonance towards arguments that make you feel strange as a learning moment. but okay. you do you…
this is about reinforcing the framing of assange as a rapist by hillary/bush jr. supporting astroturf agents running amok here now as it seems. it justifies their absolute betrayal of him and throwing him to the torture empire to be abused and killed. this is what they are about. With the arguments given and knowing what i know, i have a hard time believing that this poster is about womens rights. but rather about creating pretenses under which Julian Assange must be hated and despised by the left and left to be tortured and murdered.
the emotional framings, the smearing, the twisting arguments, not sticking to the debate and then ultimately victim postureing until the admins intervene is their social media forum PLAYBOOK 101 and i m saddened that the admins can’t see this. i mean just look what the person wrote in my argument with them
One time I saw a funny ponr on the 2016 elections with sanders Clinton and trump fucking
Well they are all clowns, the west is not ot serious people.
porn is great.
It’s literally filmed rape from either victims of human trafficking, or extremely poor and desperate people being forced to exploit themselves sexually in order to pay rent.
so if a girl makes extra bucks on some video platform and uses her boyfriend as pimp, does your generalisation still stick? I mean i m all against abusive (labour) relationships and personally, that is where i would put the lever. but okay, i m all good with being attacked for marxist principles that superceede derivative principles
sure like nobody makes that choice themselves. If they want to do it it’s their choice. No uptight backward conservative has to to make a decision or have an opinion on what a woman or a man does with their body. And by your ridiculous absurd definition any job takes on is also forced labor.
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I’m surprised by the incredibly backward and charicatural representation of the situation here. That many people are so brainwashed by the propaganda from mostly moralising religious bastards. I live in western Europe. My city has a designated area for prostitution. Safe, organised, clean and constantly checked for any abuses. ALL the women,trans or whoever are there by their own will. Even if it would be the simplistic cliche case of ‘in a desperate economic situation’ then I’m happy women have the CHOICE for prostitution or porn. I, as a man, have done a lot worse backbreaking and humiliating jobs. If I were a moderately attractive woman I would certainly consider the possibility.
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where prostitution is coercion, the coercion must be removed from the prostitution.
But funny that we start with prostitution (to install more backwards moralist laws and allow state violence) instead of the driving force: poverty
Literally no one chooses to do porn. All porn is rape, and watching it conditions people into becoming rapists.
So much stupidity in one sentence. Not even worth going inti it.
