Due to the recent ban of a wolfballs.com-user for “Bigotry and racism on his main account on Wolfball.” it is requested that Lemmy.ml updates the Code of Conduct to reflect actual moderation. Please consider adding that Lemmy.ml will ban users for comments made with other accounts on other instances.

  • I have a username@beehaw.org
    173·
    2 years ago

    I think that’s still a valid reason for banning even if it’s not explicitly in the rules. If wolfballs were federated with lemmy.ml, the user’s main account would certainly be banned from this instance, and setting up another account on lemmy.ml would be seen as ban evasion, causing the new account to also be banned. So it makes no sense to not ban their account just because lemmy.ml blocks wolfballs and thus had no opportunity to ban their main account; in fact it makes negative sense because now we’re letting someone use our instance because their behavior was so unacceptable that we blocked their instance.

      • comfy@lemmy.ml
        56·
        2 years ago

        I think this is a really good chain of logic!

        Not particularly. It’s literally guilt by association.

        They make a good point about defederation not letting us ban them and therefore it shouldn’t be seen as a protection, but that user was federated with us for a long time and wasn’t banned. There were opportunities and the moderation team didn’t choose to. So I don’t think there’s an implicit ban-evasion element on a personal level, they were tolerated and if I remember correctly the defederation was due to antagonistic user interactions between the communities like vote brigading and troll accounts.

        I wouldn’t be against the user being banned here for things like shilling and some of their comments here. But defederation and their activities elsewhere have nothing to do with it.

  • SalamanderA
    1617·
    2 years ago

    My recommendation would be to avoid the drama and hassle of inter-instance policing and simply undo that ban.

    • 𝕽𝖚𝖆𝖎𝖉𝖍𝖗𝖎𝖌𝖍@midwest.social
      813·
      2 years ago

      Next would be banning people for content on entirely different platforms. Say something objectionable on YouTube? Banned!

      But I am guessing this must have something to do with managing Federated content. Was his other account getting pulled in somehow through the banned account?

      • Cold Hotman@nrsk.noOP
        72·
        2 years ago

        Next would be banning people for content on entirely different platforms.

        I think that’s the situation Salamander is arguing against. And I support him. But I also support that every instance should be able to moderate and administrate how they see fit - That’s why I, as a user on a different instance, don’t care about the ban itself.

        But with the shared nature of federation, quite a few of the communities I interact with are on lemmy.ml. I’d very much like to know the rules so I don’t break them, or if I find that I don’t agree with them - so I can find or create other places to participate, instead of trying to change the fundamentals of already existing communities or instances.

    • TheConquestOfBed@lemmy.ml
      243·
      2 years ago

      I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, “no. get out.”

      And the dude next to me says, “hey i’m not doing anything, i’m a paying customer.” and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, “out. now.” and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed

      Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “you didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”

      And i was like, ohok and he continues.

      "you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.

      And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.

      And i was like, ‘oh damn.’ and he said “yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”

      And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven’t forgotten that at all.

      https://nitter.ca/IamRageSparkle/status/1280892535024619522#m

      • nutomic@lemmy.mlM
        1618·
        2 years ago

        If I understand your story right, we should proactively ban people because their friends might violate rules in the future? It sounds similar to the story of Minority Report, but that was supposed to be a dystopia, not an inspiration to implement irl.

            • TheConquestOfBed@lemmy.ml
              226·
              2 years ago

              I don’t need to argue anything. Fuck fascists. If you’re an ML like you’ve stated in the past, you know why and don’t need me to explain to you why fascism is unacceptable and how they leverage liberal discourse to gain footing.

              If you enable fascists to speak then what do you even stand for?

              To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism.

              To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.

              I don’t claim to be unbiased. I don’t claim to be fair. Because being unbiased and fair is for people who don’t have to worry about their own survival. LGBT people have already learned this lesson when we’ve been hunted down in the past. You gotta nip this shit in the bud before it takes root.

              If you make this place a safe haven for these people, then it’s not safe for me or people like me, and I will treat it like radioactive waste.

              • nutomic@lemmy.mlM
                1016·
                2 years ago

                You are proposing to change lemmy.ml rules so that users can be banned for activity on other sites. Your only argument for this rule change seems to be the claim that wolfballs.com is fascist. You havent shown any evidence to support this claim, and its far from obvious when browsing the site. So I dont see any justification for such a rule change.

                • Seanchaí (she/her)@lemmygrad.ml
                  182·
                  2 years ago

                  You keep ignoring that he is on here every time someone is about to get banned for bigotry offering a safe space on wolfballs. You let the comment section of your Leftist website be a recruiting grounds for racists and homophobes. And you keep saying “can’t police his activity on another site,” but like…how is posting links and promoting a bigoted website not a violation of lemmy.ml’s rules?

              • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
                820·
                2 years ago

                If you’re an ML like you’ve stated in the past, you know why and don’t need me to explain to you why fascism is unacceptable and how they leverage liberal discourse to gain footing.

                This is exactly why non-MLs look at half the commies and shake their heads. If all you scream is “fascist” and literally refuse to explain, then all we gather is “They call people they don’t like fascists”. Then commies get mad the rest of us “can’t see” the proper way.

                To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.

                How does this not counter your first point? If you don’t practice what you believe in when it actually matters, you don’t have beliefs, you have hobbies.

                Edit: This thread has gone on for many comments. Read them for a laugh. Basically they never proved the original guy is racist, only got increasingly frustrated. Which is honestly surprising, since I believe the guy is probably a racist PoS, but all I asked for was proof of it.

                • TheConquestOfBed@lemmy.ml
                  193·
                  2 years ago

                  I have literally linked to where the guy is being racist and seanchai has quoted his homophobic and transphobic remarks. It’s plain as day. I’m calling this shit out because it makes me feel unsafe to be here as a queer person.

                  Also, how do you not know what a dogwhistle is?

    • Seanchaí (she/her)@lemmygrad.ml
      243·
      2 years ago

      Imagine if you will, you decided to have a neighbourhood block party. You say, this is an open and inviting space, and everyone is welcome!

      So lots of different people show up, but a few of your guests are uncomfortable. You ask them what’s wrong, you want everyone to feel safe here.

      They say, “that guy over there, he’s always saying things like we’re not really people, or we’re sick in the head, or we don’t deserve rights. He threatens us and talks gleefully about the day when we’ll finally be outlawed as degenerates because we’re queer and Black. He and his bigot buddies all talk about the Great Replacement, and how they can’t wait to rise up against the establishment in a war to put Trump back in power.”

      And you know this is true. He doesn’t hide it. In fact, he’s mentioned those hangouts at your barbeque, and said that everyone at the barbeque is also welcome to join them for those hangouts.

      But instead you say, “Yeah, but he hasn’t said those horrible things here. So you should just chill out, it would be wrong for me to kick him out of this party just because when he’s not at this party he doesn’t believe you’re human. That’s an important part of everyone feeling welcome and safe here. Do you get it? Do you feel safe around him now?”

      That’s why someone who comes on here, a Leftist instance, and who has, through their own volition, outed themselves as the bigoted wolfballs admin account, should, in fact, be banned. To do otherwise is to just prop up bigots as long as they know when to “mask on.”

      It’s not like you should be hunting for everyone’s other platform activity, but he provided links to that content himself. He promoted that alt-right shithole right here on lemmy.ml. He took his own mask off, and it’s pretty gross not to ban him.

      • nutomic@lemmy.mlM
        1612·
        2 years ago

        The point is that lemmy.ml rules only apply on this instance. Otherwise we admins would be forced to go through Reddit profiles of all users to search for potential rule violations.

        They say, “that guy over there, he’s always saying things like we’re not really people, or we’re sick in the head, or we don’t deserve rights. He threatens us and talks gleefully about the day when we’ll finally be outlawed as degenerates because we’re queer and Black. He and his bigot buddies all talk about the Great Replacement, and how they can’t wait to rise up against the establishment in a war to put Trump back in power.”

        Where do you find any of this? I checked the frontpage of wolfballs just now, and couldnt find a single post about LGBT. So if you want me to take this seriously, you should give some actual examples. Even so, if there are a couple of users with such opinions it doesnt mean the admin shares those views. There are also plenty of users on lemmy.ml which I disagree with.

        MasterofBalls in particular has written code for Lemmy, and runs one of the most active instances. For me that means he is a valuable contributor to the project, even if I dont necessarily agree with his political views. Excluding him from project discussions would only harm the project.

        Finally, you are not even a lemmy.ml user. If it bothers you so much, ask your own admins to ban the user. lemmy.ml moderation isnt really your concern.

        • Seanchaí (she/her)@lemmygrad.ml
          152·
          2 years ago

          "How do you define a women

          A women is defined as x chromosomes and no tallywhacker i.e probably not you"

          There’s fucking anti LGBTQ shit right in the goddamn sidebar, please learn to read and realize how gross you are defending this piece of shit. If you read the shit he posts himself it is racist, anti-LGBTQ (he calls literally all queers groomers) and yes, he personally believes in Great Replacement. Like what is wrong with you? Is anyone on Lemmy.ml actually a fucking leftist???

          EDIT: And again how is promoting wolfballs on lemmy.ml not a violation of lemm.ml’s rules? are you actually saying it is okay to promote bigoted websites on lemm.ml and you still claim lemmy.ml is anti-bigotry and leftist? like really?

        • krolden@lemmy.ml
          93·
          2 years ago

          Thank you for being one of the most sane mods/Admins/devs ive seen in any community for quite some time. Many others would just say ‘fuck you what I say goes’ or just cave to the guilt tripping but the Lemmy devs really seem to have their heads scdewerd on straight.

        • NRSK.no@nrsk.no
          61·
          2 years ago

          The developers ability to focus on long term goals for the project is the reason NRSK believes in Lemmy, and tries to support it as a platform in any way possible.

      • comfy@lemmy.ml
        1014·
        2 years ago

        And what if some anarchists here were uncomfortable about you hanging around lemmygrad and insulting them over there? Would it be appropriate for a mod here to ban you because you were associated with a community which has been known to make many leftists here uncomfortable?

        The bottom line is you’re still able to create civil, unoffensive and constructive conversation here, despite doing things elsewhere that will make people here uncomfortable.

        • Seanchaí (she/her)@lemmygrad.ml
          213·
          2 years ago

          There are two major differences:

          A) lemmy is federated with lemmygrad.

          B) what self-respecting “leftist” website lets someone advertise and recruit for a bigoted alt-right forum in their comments>??

          EDIT: legit, how is plugging wolfballs in the lemmy.ml comments not a violation of the no bigotry rule? What if people start recommending others join the Proud Boys? Or start hanging out on stormfront?

          The reason the wolfballs admin should be banned is, as I said originally, that he on lemmy advertised his bigoted cesspit

            • comfy@lemmy.ml
              22·
              2 years ago

              That’s an appropriate way to respond to a comment starting with “Imagine if you will”.

          • comfy@lemmy.ml
            25·
            2 years ago

            I don’t see the relevance of lemmy.ml being federated. That wouldn’t make it ok. If another community we federate with tolerated a couple of neonazis then that doesn’t make those users ok because we find the platform as a whole tolerable to federate with.

            I think you have a valid point with the shilling. I agree with you there. It’s not bigotry in itself but it is abusing this forum to promote anti-egalitarian intolerance (which is undeniably and inevitably what that platform primarily hosts, regardless of its admin’s claims of platform neutrality). Plugging wolfballs is contrary to the stated purpose of this platform, and an unlikely but possible gateway to it gaining dangerous popularity. That is something they are doing here on their account, and I would support the rules being updated to ban it.

        • TheConquestOfBed@lemmy.ml
          185·
          2 years ago

          The difference is that MLs don’t want to kill anarchists. They just think they’re annoying. With fascists, the death drive is built in and it infects everything they touch.

    • AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml
      235·
      2 years ago

      Just for transparency, I was the one who banned them. In my personal opinion, I still think the ban was appropriate, but because someone who outranks me reversed it and has told me their rationale, I’m conceding the issue.

      • comfy@lemmy.ml
        518·
        2 years ago

        Well, that’s something that needs to be resolved, sooner is better than later, or it will lead to more drama later. Are you using your staff position to enforce personal opinions/preferences, or are you taking the role of a moderator enforcing site rules?

        The 4 site rules here (especially #2) seem clear to me that people shouldn’t be banned merely for their supposed personal opinions, or what they do elsewhere.

        • AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml
          182·
          2 years ago

          Are you using your staff position to enforce personal opinions/preferences, or are you taking the role of a moderator enforcing site rules?

          The latter. I thought the rules were such that they should be banned. How I want the instance to be moderated (i.e. rule changes) is another question and something I’ll take up with the other admins.

          • comfy@lemmy.ml
            84·
            2 years ago

            I think it could be an opportunity to clarify some of the rules. I’ve made a post on /c/meta about clarification of the term ‘leftist’ for example, because the vagueness can easily lead to reasonable, avoidable conflict.

            • nutomic@lemmy.mlM
              82·
              2 years ago

              I agree that “leftist” is too vague, but I also havent heard any better idea how this instance could be described.

              • comfy@lemmy.ml
                32·
                2 years ago

                Well, how do the admins here define ‘leftist’?

                That’s actually a major part of my post. We can’t recommend a better idea without knowing your own definition because ‘leftist’ is just so ambiguous. That’s why it’s a problem. If I know how you define it, I can suggest a few alternatives.

  • krolden@lemmy.ml
    913·
    2 years ago

    Codes of conduct are stupid. AFAIK it wasn’t a very common thing among software projects before a few years ago and they are only supposed to apply to the developers ethics and not the platform as a whole.

    Also premetive banning is super shitty and a total reddit move. If they’re as shitty as you say it won’t be long before they’re banned across the federation.

    • AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml
      151·
      2 years ago

      This is just my opinion:

      Inssently promoting an instance that is very explicitly against our rules, is also against our rules. It would be way less of an issue and way more a grey area (IMO) if they weren’t constantly plugging Wolfballs as the main admin and was just posting like most other users, but it’s clear that the only purpose of their Lemmy.ml account is to do that (which could also qualify as blogspam BTW but we’ve let that slide a lot for promoting other instances). If an account is constantly promoting an instance as the head admin of that instance, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to take mod actions based on their activity on that instance, because what they’re saying on their account here is essentially that they think their content over there is good, that they endorse it, and want people to keep posting stiff in that vein.

      To be clear, it’s okay for an admin on another instance to have an account here, it’s also okay to promote your instance here as long as you don’t cross over into spam territory. But if you do the latter, I don’t think it’s an overstep for us to go over to your instance and check the content you post there, and see if the instance being promoted (indirectly by us as well, since we’re the admins) is consistent with our own rules. This would apply for other platforms, yes. We’re not going to hunt down your YouTube channel and inspect it, but if you promote your YouTube channel and one can immediately find racist/bigoted content there, that is indeed grounds for removal of the post, inssently promoting that channel will get you banned.

      There is already precedent for this, mostly related to pornography. Where if you post a site and easily accessible from your link are pornography, especially if what you posted is the homepage, that entire post is considered NSFW and will get removed. Two examples from way back are posts to a fanfiction site and an anime site (not posts to a specific page btw, but advertising the sites in general), and immediately accessible on the sites were tags and links to pages relating to pornography and critically, sexualization of minors. Both were removed as soon as we found out. We didn’t particularly care if the poster agreed with those things or not. They were there, and they’re against our rules.

      @coldhotman@nrsk.no, @Salamander@mander.xyz, @sxan@midwest.social

      • SalamanderA
        91·
        2 years ago

        Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning despite not owing us an explanation. I suppose one of the “cons” of a transparent modlog is that we only get to see the final output without getting the full picture, making it easy to get the wrong impression.

      • sheesh@lemmy.ml
        71·
        2 years ago

        Good! Thank you for the effort. It is important to set a clear boundary and ban users/communities/instances/… if they attempt to cross it.

  • linuxtube@lemmy.ml
    915·
    2 years ago

    Ten $ of bitcoin to anyone who can show me an actual racist post made by him. I have not seen him say anything racist and he also told Nazis they aren’t welcome on wolfballs. Just an observer.